Kai Episode 51 (4 April 2010)

[Metalwario64]

removal of any sort of flashes of light.

That's not Toei's fault if you are implying that it was their decision which it definitely isn't; it's kinda been the law in Japan since that stupid Pokemon episode that gave all of those children seizures.

[Kendamu]

Plus Gohan doesn't sense Goku's ki, which is impossible cause a Super Saiyan cannot decrease his power output. (at least not at this time)

Really? Since when? Where was that ever said?

You're telling me it's taken you fifty-one episodes to realize that Dragon Ball Kai is no more than Toei's Cash-In Hack-Job to "refresh"...

As I have put in my signature, I think "revision" (as in Dragonball Revised, not Dragonball Refresh) is a more accurate translation than the Engrish everyone likes to use as their core argument.

"Item becomes portable when carried!"

Yeah...

Whether you like the revision or not, that's exactly what it is and, apparently, it's wildly popular.

[Senzu_Bean]

Plus Gohan doesn't sense Goku's ki, which is impossible cause a Super Saiyan cannot decrease his power output. (at least not at this time)

Really? Since when? Where was that ever said?

Since the very first time a Super Saiyan appeared to the time the Saiyans got use to the form and is everywhere. You just have to look, pal.

[Kendamu]

Plus Gohan doesn't sense Goku's ki, which is impossible cause a Super Saiyan cannot decrease his power output. (at least not at this time)

Really? Since when? Where was that ever said?

Since the very first time a Super Saiyan appeared to the time the Saiyans got use to the form and is everywhere. You just have to look, pal.

Yeah. So, Goku returned to normal when attempting to leave the Freeza fight and then re-transformed seconds later.

Suer, he was still angry and that helped, but he can obviously bring his power down at will.

[Fishman]

I believe the idea that he cannot adjust his power output in the Super Saiyan state is linked to the reaction of the cast when Goku and Gohan emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time, appearing visually as a Super Saiyan, but not feeling anywhere close to what they're used to feeling. I was under the impression that the control over power output was the entire point of that, since Vegeta and Trunks were noted as only having focused on increasing the output it already had.

This, of course, contradicts every scene ever shown without a constant aura around a Super Saiyan before this point. At the very least, entering and exiting the state is a bit different than being able to control yourself in that state.

[Kendamu]

Read the manga. The training wasn't to control power output. It was to make Super Saiyan feel like their normal state; to get rid of the uneasy and restless feeling that comes with the transformation.

Goku could've easily been un-transformed when Gohan couldn't see or sense him.

Or we can just call it a filler plothole.

[rereboy]

Read the manga. The training wasn't to control power output. It was to make Super Saiyan feel like their normal state; to get rid of the uneasy and restless feeling that comes with the transformation.

Goku could've easily been un-transformed when Gohan couldn't see or sense him.

Or we can just call it a filler plothole.

You are not making sense...

In their normal state they can control perfectly well the power they want to bring out. They could go from a power level of 5000 to a power level of 90 000 in a mere instant and go back down to a power level of 5000, for example (Goku VS the Ginyu force). That means that they control their power output in their normal state and bring it down to something negligible.

If they were trying to make the Super Sayan be just like their normal state, then they would also be able to do it in their Super Sayan state, without having to return to normal, since they can do it in their normal state.
That way, the Super Sayan state no longer has any disadvantages whatsoever compared to the normal state because they can do in the Super Sayan state everything that they could do in their normal state, without any negative sides. Basically the Super Sayan state just makes them access more ki/energy, nothing more.

Also since everybody is surprised that they can`t feel their Super Sayan power despite the fact that they are in that state when they leave the room, that obviously means that they couldn`t do it before.

[ohaimynameiserik]

Plus Gohan doesn't sense Goku's ki, which is impossible cause a Super Saiyan cannot decrease his power output. (at least not at this time)

First time Kai seriously disappointments me.

This is really only the first time?

You're telling me it's taken you fifty-one episodes to realize that Dragon Ball Kai is no more than Toei's Cash-In Hack-Job to "refresh" their revenue source (Don't tell me Toei values it as anything more than that, either.) the series? We've endured the mess-free Makankosappo, Starburst-orange Kaioken, "I can't believe it's not goldenrod" Super Saiya-jin hair, forced black-hair Vegeta (but never on a consistent basis), removal of any sort of flashes of light (AGH YOU SHOT ME IN THE EYE, GOOD THING IT DIDN'T FLASH THE SCREEN TOO BRIGHTLY, WE DON'T WANT THE CHILLINS GETTIN' SEIZURES. THANKS FOR BEING A PAL, KAKAROTTO!) the outright refusal to fix glaringly obvious animation errors, an overwhelming lack of effort put into the reanimated scenes (particularly in the coloring), and you're only just now coming to the conclusion that Dragon Ball Kai is an enormous disappointment?

Honestly, I'd say it's the worst thing to happen to the series. About as bad as anything Funimation ever did to it in the name of profit.

You're overdoing it.

And this, too, was also the first time Kai seriously disappointed me.

About the whole not sensing Goku's ki thing, I'll just go with Kendamu and call it a filler plothole. Should not have been there. Does not make sense. I could have easily edited it out myself.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

[Amigo Ten]

As full of filler as it was, I liked this episode. Better than the previous episode, that's for sure. The Gohan stuff might not make much sense in terms of the power scale, or Goku's ki not being sensed for some reason, but I liked it. That he was brave and mature enough to go off to his death in an effort to stop Freeza is a great character moment for him. He thought he was the only person left who could do something, so he decided to damn well do something.

Someone said it fit with the theme of him taking Goku's place in the next arc or something, but personally I liked it because this is the exact opposite of how he will act in the upcoming arc. And that's just one of the reasons I don't really like the upcoming arc.

[Kendamu]

Read the manga. The training wasn't to control power output. It was to make Super Saiyan feel like their normal state; to get rid of the uneasy and restless feeling that comes with the transformation.

Goku could've easily been un-transformed when Gohan couldn't see or sense him.

Or we can just call it a filler plothole.

You are not making sense...

In their normal state they can control perfectly well the power they want to bring out. They could go from a power level of 5000 to a power level of 90 000 in a mere instant and go back down to a power level of 5000, for example (Goku VS the Ginyu force). That means that they control their power output in their normal state and bring it down to something negligible.

If they were trying to make the Super Sayan be just like their normal state, then they would also be able to do it in their Super Sayan state, without having to return to normal, since they can do it in their normal state.
That way, the Super Sayan state no longer has any disadvantages whatsoever compared to the normal state because they can do in the Super Sayan state everything that they could do in their normal state, without any negative sides. Basically the Super Sayan state just makes them access more ki/energy, nothing more.

Also since everybody is surprised that they can`t feel their Super Sayan power despite the fact that they are in that state when they leave the room, that obviously means that they couldn`t do it before.

I don't make sense? I cited my source and my source is the source written by the man himself! If you don't like the idea then fine, but you can't just up and ignore the facts.

Dragonball Vol. 33/VIZ DBZ Vol. 17

"From now on we'll try to make Super Saiyan our natural form--and stay in it! We've got to work on getting rid of that instability... that restless feeling." -- Son Goku

"They look like Super Saiyans... but I don't feel the energy...! It's like... it's their natural state..." -- Vegeta

"... I always thought it took a gigantic effort to stay in Super Saiyan state... but they looks so relaxed..." -- Tenshinhan

"They were Super Saiyans, without doubt. Somehow, though, they trained themselves to maintain the state as if it were their norm." -- Piccolo, in reply to Tenshinhan

"They decided that this is their best combat state! If they get used to it, they'll minimize the strain on their bodies during battle!" -- Vegeta

Taking it back to how Gohan could've not sensed Goku in the first place.

- Goku can drop out of Super Saiyan. He did it once, right in front of us, under his own free will against Freeza. He did so at the end of Dragonball Vol. 27/VIZ DBZ Vol. 11. It's a difficult state to maintain. Maybe he got hit hard enough that it momentarily de-transformed him.

- It's a filler plothole. This is the explanation I prefer.

[rereboy]

You questioned the fact that Super Sayans in the beginning could not control their power output as they can control it in their normal state, as seen in this quote:

Plus Gohan doesn't sense Goku's ki, which is impossible cause a Super Saiyan cannot decrease his power output. (at least not at this time)

Really? Since when? Where was that ever said?

All the things you quoted afterwards are basically telling us just that, especially these two quotes:

"They look like Super Saiyans... but I don't feel the energy...! It's like... it's their natural state..." -- Vegeta

"... I always thought it took a gigantic effort to stay in Super Saiyan state... but they looks so relaxed..." -- Tenshinhan

And that was what I was telling you. Those quotes tell us without a doubt that the Super Sayans, previously to that moment, could not control their power output, or at least they couldn`t control it well. Which makes sense, since they hadn`t really mastered that state yet. Only when they mastered it were they able to control their power output perfectly and get rid of all the negative effects like the mentioned restless feeling and energy waste.

Your previous post didn`t make sense because it didn`t prove whatsoever that the Super Sayans could control their power output at least to the same degree as they do in their normal state. Since that was what you questioned in the first place, I stated that it didn`t make sense.

[Kendamu]

You obviously missed my point about Goku turning back to normal and why FPSSj was about things other than power.

EDIT: Oh, and where was it stated that a Super Saiyan cannot control their power? I mean, Goku only got stronger and fought harder throughout the Freeza fight. If his power was uncontrollable he wouldn't be getting stronger, turning back to normal, and transforming again.

[rereboy]

No, I got your point about him being able to turn back to normal and thus Gohan not being able to sense him, and I never said that mastering the SSJ wasn`t about more things than just the power output (I even mentioned those things in my previous post).

I wasn`t talking about those things because I agree with them.

I was talking just about one thing that I didn`t agree with you: you questioned the fact that SSJ could not control their power output, or that they, at least, couldn`t control it well. And as I explained, everything points to the fact that they really couldn`t control it or that they couldn`t control it well.

EDIT: Oh, and where was it stated that a Super Saiyan cannot control their power? I mean, Goku only got stronger and fought harder throughout the Freeza fight. If his power was uncontrollable he wouldn't be getting stronger, turning back to normal, and transforming again.

You already quoted the answer.
Vegeta said that he couldn`t feel the energy of the SSJ from Goku and Gohan after they left the room even though they were SSJ, and he was surprised by it. If they were able to do it, to control their power output that well as SSJ, before entering the room, he wouldn`t be surprised.
Therefore, before that moment, they couldn`t do it, or they couldn`t do it well.

[Kendamu]

Goku seemed to get stronger when Freeza made fun of Krillin. Then, just before turning back to nromal, he didn't seem all full of aura and power as he had previously. So, while he can't hide his power he can control it.

You already quoted the answer.
Vegeta said that he couldn`t feel the energy of the SSJ from Goku and Gohan after they left the room even though they were SSJ, and he was surprised by it. If they were able to do it, to control their power output that well as SSJ, before entering the room, he wouldn`t be surprised.
Therefore, before that moment, they couldn`t do it, or they couldn`t do it well.

Obviously they could. Otherwise Goku would've easily broken Trunks' sword and Vegeta would've destroyed Earth while fighting #18 because he'd have no choice but to cut loose.

[rereboy]

I don`t agree.

Think of sayan arc Vegeta.

At that time he couldn`t control his ki output like the Earthllings could, so he couldn`t regulate his power output, he couldn`t suppress it. Because of that the Earthlings could sense him very well and if a scouter was to read his power level, it would read his unsuppressed power output, his unsuppressed power level.

And did he have an aura at all times? No, he didn`t. But that didn`t stop him from being unable to regulate his power output like the Earthlings could.

So the SSJ can be without an aura and be unable to regulate their power output like they would be able to in their normal state.

For example, imagine a sayan with a normal power level of 500 000 and with a power level of 10 000 000 at SSJ. While in his normal state, he can go from a power level of 5 to 500 000 in a instant and then back to 5, because he has full control of his ki and power output. But when he turns SSJ, since he hasn`t mastered it yet, he is almost always close to 10 000 000.

Now, lets say that the same sayan has mastered his SSJ. Now he can go from 5 to 10 000 000 without having to return to his normal state, and beside that he got rid of the feeling of restlessness and the power waste.

Obviously they could. Otherwise Goku would've easily broken Trunks' sword and Vegeta would've destroyed Earth while fighting #18 because he'd have no choice but to cut loose.

Being unable to suppress the power output doesn`t mean that the fighter is incapable of controlling any type of Ki..

Again, think of Sayan arc Vegeta... He was unable to suppress his power output but he could easily control the amount of power he put in his ki blasts...

The power output is basically the amount of power that you have "on the surface", ready to be used. Fighters with the ability to sense Ki can sense that ki.
But a fighter with control over his power output can basically store deep inside him his own energy and only bring it out to the surface when he needs it. That hidden reserves cannot be easily detected by any ki sensing fighter or by any scouter.

[Amigo Ten]

A lot of time could have been saved if someone had just said that Super Saiyans can't suppress their power below the point of transformation. That's what this is about. Goku can transform back to base to lower his power, but at that point he can't stay as a Super Saiyan and suppress his power to base levels. After his time in the RoSaT he can.

[Blue]

Thanks for the easily cut filler guys. You're really helping your cause here.

[Cold Skin]

Actually, it is pretty explicit in the manga that up to the point of Gohan and Goku in the Time Chamber, Super Saiyans can't be relaxed when transformed, that's all.

Goku and Gohan work on the form so that it feels as good as their "natural state", he actually defines it as their "new natural state from now on". A Super Saiyan always had to have some kind of fierce rage inside, even when not pissed of, their was "something wrong" inside.

When Goku and Gohan get out, for the first time, their eyes are normal, more "rounded", it feels like they don't even notice they're in Super Saiyan mode (the rounded eye will become more common in the Boo saga since it is mostly natural to all Saiyans at this point, especially the youngest). That's what the others notice, and they can perfectly sense their aura at that moment, it's not "absent" or anything. There will be no transition from one state to another too, since they're already transformed and their body is already, constantly, shaped for full-power battle.

To me, it has nothing to do with suppressing the power level, there's not even any mention of that. And I think if they can do it normally, they can do it as Super Saiyans. All that matters is that they keep that "angry motivation" inside. If it was to make Freezer suffer by taking him by surprise, I'm pretty sure Goku could hide his power level (though the point is that he doesn't need to, since Freezer can't sense power levels).

I don't think Goku hides his aura at that moment, since it shows no logic (but hey, then again, filler...). I consider that it is Gohan having trouble with sensing power, since he's already supposed to have trouble flying fast as said by Krilin (which would explain why he flies quite slowly when he leaves with Piccolo, search Bulma and bring her back...). Hard to find any logic in his fight with Freezer in his final form. How can he stand a chance? Maybe Freezer, exhausted at that point by his fight with Goku, had a moment of weakness that made him sort of accessible even to a diminished Gohan, and that this short fight gave him enough time to gather remaining strength for the continuation of his fight with Goku (for a short while though, since Goku will soon notice that he can't keep up for long). However, that explanation is really... well, you know, I don't know the expression in your language, but you know what I mean, exagerrated, it's pushing things really far...

Anyway, for reference regarding what Goku and Gohan learn in the Time Chamber...

FRENCH TANKOBON 33: BEGINNING OF THE CELL GAME
CHAPTER 387: BALANCE OF A SUPER POWER

GOKU: "When it comes to balance, the first Super Saiyan level is better. It's really obvious... From now on, we'll be Super Saiyans all the time, except for sleeping. It has to become our regular state. Let's suppress that anxious feeling which overwheilms us when we transform... Then we'll get back to training from the basics on. Somehow, it's not the straightest way to the goal, but it's the best I think."

FRENCH TANKOBON 33: BEGINNING OF THE CELL GAME
CHAPTER 390: GOKU AND GOHAN ALREADY GET OUT

TEN SHIN HAN: "It's Goku and Gohan's auras. They already got out of the room?!"

And later...

VEGETA: (What's the matter with them?... They're in Super Saiyan form?.... No, something's different than the usual stuff... They show a different vibe... They actually keep that form as if it was natural to them...)

FRENCH TANKOBON 33: BEGINNING OF THE CELL GAME
CHAPTER 391: LITTLE BREAK BEFORE THE TOURNAMENT

TEN SHIN HAN: "Guys, Goku and his son were in Super Saiyan form? Despite it, they seemed surprisingly... how can I put it?... serene, as if it was their regular state...

PICCOLO: "They were in Super Saiyan form, no doubt about it... My guess is, they trained to stay that way every day, to get used to it..."

TRUNKS: "So then... They probably have another transformation in store for the fight!..."

VEGETA: "Is this some kind of joke or you're just a moron?... You don't learn from your mistakes, do you... They came to conclude that this form was the best of all! By getting used to remain that way, they can raise their battle power without their body suffering consequences from it!"

TRUNKS: "..."

VEGETA: "Well thought..."

[Lugo]

Um, Hi there folks. I'm new here and my name is Lugo. ^^

btw, can anyone tell me where I get find screencaps for each ep. of DBK from ep. 47-51?

[SSJSteve]

Hi Lugo. Kanzentai have a lot of episode information and screencaps.