Kai Episode 54 (25 April 2010)

[Gaffer Tape]

While I'm not arguing that Cold might be stronger, I think you're misinterpreting the "put dust on me" line. That's just a reference to parental discipline, not necessarily that his father could beat him in a straight fight.

And while I think there might even be suggestions that Cold is stronger than Freeza, I have a hard time buying it. Like was said earlier, Cold was a weird idea. Freeza had long been established as the emperor of the universe (then again, Vegeta often referred to himself in the previous arc as the "strongest in the universe" but I digress...), so it just seems weird to have this new guy, Freeza's father, in the mix. Is he the emperor? Is he stronger? If yes to both of these, why the hell does Freeza seem to be in charge of all these forces, including the Ginyu Tokusentai, all of whom refer to Freeza as their lord and master? So I always prefer to see Cold as sort of a "queen mum" type figure. Freeza's really in charge, and he started up the whole business, and his dad just gets special privileges because of that. Either that, or Cold was in charge in the past but retired and passed on the business to his son.

[dan2026]

While I'm not arguing that Cold might be stronger, I think you're misinterpreting the "put dust on me" line. That's just a reference to parental discipline, not necessarily that his father could beat him in a straight fight.

And while I think there might even be suggestions that Cold is stronger than Freeza, I have a hard time buying it. Like was said earlier, Cold was a weird idea. Freeza had long been established as the emperor of the universe (then again, Vegeta often referred to himself in the previous arc as the "strongest in the universe" but I digress...), so it just seems weird to have this new guy, Freeza's father, in the mix. Is he the emperor? Is he stronger? If yes to both of these, why the hell does Freeza seem to be in charge of all these forces, including the Ginyu Tokusentai, all of whom refer to Freeza as their lord and master? So I always prefer to see Cold as sort of a "queen mum" type figure. Freeza's really in charge, and he started up the whole business, and his dad just gets special privileges because of that. Either that, or Cold was in charge in the past but retired and passed on the business to his son.

I see it as the exact opposite.
King Cold runs the show. He is 'King' after all.
I see Freeza as more of a spoiled Brat who has the keys to his dad's car.
Cold lets him do what he wants and he rules over a portion of the empire.

If I remember correctly when Trunks killed Freeza, Cold offered him to be his son and rule in Freeza's place.
He didn't seem to care that his son had been killed, perhaps he has many and they all rule a section of space.

However the more likely explanation as to why Freeza was built up to be top dog and then turned out not to be.
Is that Toriyama was making up everything after the Namek arc as he went along.

[Amigo Ten]

As for the OP, we've only had two so far, but the first one included the Saiyan arc and the early Namek arc. So I expect we'll get one for Trunks and the androids and another for Gohan and Cell.

[Gaffer Tape]

However the more likely explanation as to why Freeza was built up to be top dog and then turned out not to be.
Is that Toriyama was making up everything after the Namek arc as he went along.

Exactly. It was all made up as he went along. But I still have a hard time believing that Cold was the leader of the empire. Besides the fact the royal title might simply mean he's the ruler of their native planet or species, here's why. Okay, so you have this total badass who kicks the heroes around for months. The battle is literally so epic that the only one who can defeat him has to go through an as-yet-unseen legendary transformation, and the planet they are fighting on literally tears itself apart due to the sheer power displayed. Then, a year later, it turns out he's not dead. He follows the heroes to earth to exact his revenge, claiming he's even more powerful than before. Then some mysteriously warrior shows up, goes through the same transformation, and easily defeats the badass villain instantly. That is freaking awesome!

Okay, so you have this total badass who kicks the heroes around for months. The battle is literally so epic... yadda, yadda, yadda. Then, a year later, you find out that he is totally outclassed and outpowered by his father, the being who was literally pulling the strings the whole time! What a shocking twist! The guy we feared for so long is small potatoes compared to his big, bad dad! Oh, wait, then some guy shows up and kills him instantly. That is totally lame.

King Cold was a total waste of a character in his own right who didn't get to do anything cool at all. And not only that, he disarms the badassery that is Freeza by insinuating that Freeza is just some spoiled prince on a joyride rather than a calculating tyrant feared by all and controlling everything. And for what? Nothing. Cold is useless. Toriyama should never have put him in the story.

[Kai_fan]

Agreed.

Granted, there WAS a need for somebody to find Freeza and put him back together, but it could have just as easily been some underling.

[Kaboom]

Cold's weaker than Freeza. It's most likely Cold did a lot of the actual ruling in the shadows and reeling in the profit from the planet trade, while Freeza was the powerful one that everyone in the universe knew and feared.

[Gozar]

However the more likely explanation as to why Freeza was built up to be top dog and then turned out not to be.
Is that Toriyama was making up everything after the Namek arc as he went along.

Exactly. It was all made up as he went along. But I still have a hard time believing that Cold was the leader of the empire. Besides the fact the royal title might simply mean he's the ruler of their native planet or species, here's why. Okay, so you have this total badass who kicks the heroes around for months. The battle is literally so epic that the only one who can defeat him has to go through an as-yet-unseen legendary transformation, and the planet they are fighting on literally tears itself apart due to the sheer power displayed. Then, a year later, it turns out he's not dead. He follows the heroes to earth to exact his revenge, claiming he's even more powerful than before. Then some mysteriously warrior shows up, goes through the same transformation, and easily defeats the badass villain instantly. That is freaking awesome!

Okay, so you have this total badass who kicks the heroes around for months. The battle is literally so epic... yadda, yadda, yadda. Then, a year later, you find out that he is totally outclassed and outpowered by his father, the being who was literally pulling the strings the whole time! What a shocking twist! The guy we feared for so long is small potatoes compared to his big, bad dad! Oh, wait, then some guy shows up and kills him instantly. That is totally lame.

King Cold was a total waste of a character in his own right who didn't get to do anything cool at all. And not only that, he disarms the badassery that is Freeza by insinuating that Freeza is just some spoiled prince on a joyride rather than a calculating tyrant feared by all and controlling everything. And for what? Nothing. Cold is useless. Toriyama should never have put him in the story.

I'm in full agreement with you Gaffer. I have no doubt that Cold is pretty bad ass in his own right, but comparing him to the emperor of the universe? I just don't buy it. Freeza himself said that prior to Namek, his father was the only one to ever hurt him. But at the same time didn't seem to put too much care into it. I find it hard to believe that his father can defeat him when he treats the fact that his father can "hurt" him so nonchalantly.

[Gaffer Tape]

And again, it's not because that line is talking about Freeza and his father having a fight. It's basically saying that Cold spanked Freeza as a child. That's all. Because, you know, that's what parents do...

[Gozar]

And again, it's not because that line is talking about Freeza and his father having a fight. It's basically saying that Cold spanked Freeza as a child. That's all. Because, you know, that's what parents do...

I know you already said that. But for me personally, the line does matter and factor in.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I realize that this is likely an anime exclusive, but several characters do point out that Cold has the larger power as the ship arrives in Earth's orbit.


~Da Lemmy

[Xyex]

I realize that this is likely an anime exclusive, but several characters do point out that Cold has the larger power as the ship arrives in Earth's orbit.


~Da Lemmy

I think it's in the manga as well, but it's also pointed out that Freeza 'gets much stronger than this', too. So Cold's stronger than whatever suppressed level of power Freeza is putting out (likely equal to the level he was at at the start of his fight with Goku). We never find out if Cold can power-up/transform, though, which could still make him stronger.

The whole "Wow, this guy just beat with ease someone who gave Goku trouble!" thing also kinda loses it's 'cool factor' when you realize that neither Freeza or Cold ever powered-up in the fight with Trunks. SSJ Goku could have killed initial 4th Form Freeza with both hands tied behind his back and blind folded. So it's not really such a big deal in the long run. >>

While I'm not arguing that Cold might be stronger, I think you're misinterpreting the "put dust on me" line. That's just a reference to parental discipline, not necessarily that his father could beat him in a straight fight.

And while I think there might even be suggestions that Cold is stronger than Freeza, I have a hard time buying it. Like was said earlier, Cold was a weird idea. Freeza had long been established as the emperor of the universe (then again, Vegeta often referred to himself in the previous arc as the "strongest in the universe" but I digress...), so it just seems weird to have this new guy, Freeza's father, in the mix. Is he the emperor? Is he stronger? If yes to both of these, why the hell does Freeza seem to be in charge of all these forces, including the Ginyu Tokusentai, all of whom refer to Freeza as their lord and master? So I always prefer to see Cold as sort of a "queen mum" type figure. Freeza's really in charge, and he started up the whole business, and his dad just gets special privileges because of that. Either that, or Cold was in charge in the past but retired and passed on the business to his son.

I read a fanfic once where King Cold was a 'shadow king' in that he was known to exist only by a very select few people. Freeza was the 'public face' of the Empire but Cold was the one who was actually in charge in the end.

I've had a similar idea for him myself. He lives on their homeworld and all of his orders are issued electronically, and everyone thinks they come from Freeza. Only about a thousand people have even ever heard of Cold, and all of the secrecy and stuff comes down to two reasons. First is that Cold himself is just a secretive person. Secretive and paranoid. If people don't know he exists they can't come after him. You know? Second is that if someone comes along able to actually challenge Freeza, they'll do so thinking he's the top dog and beating him is all that matters. Then down swoops Cold, kills them, and the status quo continues as is. Making Cold sort of the 'ace up the sleeve' as it were.

Agreed.

Granted, there WAS a need for somebody to find Freeza and put him back together, but it could have just as easily been some underling.

There's no way an underling would have cared to help Freeza. They'd have been more likely to kill him and try to take over the Empire in his place.

[Senzu_Bean]

Just take a look at Kanzentai: http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... #king_cold

[Gaffer Tape]

*snip*

I agree that all of that would have been cool. Likewise, Freeza was basically the shadowy overlord to Vegeta. When Vegeta was the main villain, we thought he was the ultimate badass. Then we met Freeza, who we learned controlled and manipulated the Saiya-jin, wiped them out, and used planets and civilizations for his playthings. And then we spent the next year and a half or so with Freeza as the main antagonist, and all of those personality traits and backstory came into play and fleshed out the character. My argument against Cold being the shadowy overlord of Freeza (aside from Senzu_Bean's link to the quote "inferior to Freeza") is that, if that was Toriyama's intention, there was no point, seeing as how Cold was defeated immediately. We had no chance to develop an attachment to him, he didn't get a chance to do anything, so any information that he was better than Freeza and pulled the strings, serves no purpose to us or the story, and all it does is undermine Freeza. Again, comparing it to Vegeta, revealing Freeza as the overlord slightly diminished Vegeta's status as a villain, but at the same time, opened up new possibilities and insights into his character. Cold only diminishes Freeza and for no good reason.

[Blue]

It's basically saying that Cold spanked Freeza as a child.

I think "beat violently" would be a better term, he probably did it when Freeza was very young and a far cry away from his father's power. I don't think he ever fought back though, he respects his father too much to do that.

[Amigo Ten]

I doubt Freeza was beaten as a child. Doesn't really fit with how him and his family come across to me.

[Blue]

I doubt Freeza was beaten as a child. Doesn't really fit with how him and his family come across to me.

Really? I thought that kind of thing would lead into his psychotic mind frame.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

I think his not a child.

[Kendamu]

I doubt Freeza was beaten as a child. Doesn't really fit with how him and his family come across to me.

Really? I thought that kind of thing would lead into his psychotic mind frame.

He seems to be more the "spoiled rich kid" with parents who gave him whatever he wanted than the kid who was locked in a basement, fed dogfood, and beaten regularly.

[Blue]

I doubt Freeza was beaten as a child. Doesn't really fit with how him and his family come across to me.

Really? I thought that kind of thing would lead into his psychotic mind frame.

He seems to be more the "spoiled rich kid" with parents who gave him whatever he wanted than the kid who was locked in a basement, fed dogfood, and beaten regularly.

I was thinking more of a Helmeppoesque spoiled rich kid. His dad is an emperor and by extension Freeza's extremely well known however very neglected and resented by his father for being too weak (as far as their blood line goes anyway). Just a theory of course.

[Xyex]

Cold only diminishes Freeza and for no good reason.

Technically speaking, everything that happens after the Freeza Saga diminishes Freeza. Especially if you're those crazy people who think that the base Saiya-jins in the Buu Saga are, like, 10x stronger (or more) than 100% Freeza. But even ignoring that, the advent of the Androids, Cell, SSJ2, Buu, and SSJ3 kind of pushes Freeza down into almost obscurity.

Cold's purpose was merely to make Trunks look good. Same reason Freeza was stated to be stronger now than before (even if he, you know, never bothered to power-up).