Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:27 pm

23rd Budokai Tier List

Tier 1
Goku/Piccolo

Tier 2
Kami

Tier 3
Kami (Shen)

Tier 4
Tien

Tier 5
Goku (Sacred Water)
Piccolo Daimao (young)

Tier 6
Krillin
Yamcha

Tier 7
Cyborg Tao

Tier 8
Chi-Chi
Piccolo Daimao (old)
Yajirobe/Chiaotzu

Tier 9
Piccolo Daimao (<50%)

Tier 10
King Chappa

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:16 am

I should have used the word "supplementary material".
Anyways, if you look it this way, it makes perfect sense for SS3 to be 2x SS2 (for GOKU) :

- Fat buu was more than 2x SS2 gohan. Even if majin vegeta & goku have surpassd gohan, it is still pretty scary power. He was stronger than majin vegeta by good enough to only be a little hurt by his strongest attacks.

- Goku was a good bit stronger than fat buu, but not strong enough to incinerate him with one blast at LESS THAN HALF his power. Same for kid buu, but the roles are reversed.

- Original majin buu was strong, fat buu was formed when fat kaioshin decreased kid buu's power by a significant margin, but not like making him 1/3 or 1/4 of his orignial power.

I'm up for debate if anyone wants to, but please don't say it like "it is mentioned in this & than edition of this guidebook" etc. It kills the debate.
Anyways, moving forward, following is my new & refined list for DB.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:53 am

"Don't provide evidence from official sources; it kills the debate."

Dafuq is this?

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:16 pm

DB hunt

Spoiler:

21st TB

Spoiler:

RRA encounter:

Spoiler:

Fight with unknowns:

Spoiler:

22nd TB

Spoiler:

King piccolo arc:

Spoiler:

23rd TB

Spoiler:

Polyphase Avatron · Post by **Polyphase Avatron** » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:28 am

How powerful does everyone think that alien champion who challenged Mr. Satan was? He was willing to take on someone who, as far as he knew, had defeated Beerus.

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:41 am

Somewhat below old Piccolo Daimao

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:01 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:How powerful does everyone think that alien champion who challenged Mr. Satan was? He was willing to take on someone who, as far as he knew, had defeated Beerus.

Between nappa & vegeta

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:13 pm

I have him at 10.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:20 pm

I think Giran should be higher than Yamcha during the 21st Budokai. Goku w/o tail actually put effort into taking him down while Yamcha was made a fool of by Jackie Chun and Krillin (who was tailless Goku's equal) wasn't that far off from Chun.

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:24 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:I think Giran should be higher than Yamcha during the 21st Budokai. Goku w/o tail actually put effort into taking him down while Yamcha was made a fool of by Jackie Chun and Krillin (who was tailless Goku's equal) wasn't that far off from Chun.

Yamchaa was confident to win before knowing that goku is participating.
Also, in the RRA arc & baba's tournament, he was implied to be not much weaker than krillin.

Goku wasn't serious vs Giran, who only troubled him due to his gum attack. Giran gave up after seeing actual strength of goku. We know that goku holds back a lot in general against regular opponents. Giran also thought that breaking the wall was a big deal. However, i'll move giran up a bit, to above bacterian.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:14 pm

apex_pretador wrote:Goku wasn't serious vs Giran, who only troubled him due to his gum attack. Giran gave up after seeing actual strength of goku. We know that goku holds back a lot in general against regular opponents. Giran also thought that breaking the wall was a big deal. However, i'll move giran up a bit, to above bacterian.

Goku was serious... he had the upperhand but Giran was able to trade blows with him and was able to deal damage on him. Giran only admitted defeat after Goku's tail grew back.

Also, what in the RRA and Uranai Baba sagas suggests Yamcha and Krillin were even remotely close?

Khin · Post by **Khin** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:28 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:How powerful does everyone think that alien champion who challenged Mr. Satan was? He was willing to take on someone who, as far as he knew, had defeated Beerus.

Around Post Ki training Videl.(He was having a hard time hitting Satan)

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:37 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:Goku wasn't serious vs Giran, who only troubled him due to his gum attack. Giran gave up after seeing actual strength of goku. We know that goku holds back a lot in general against regular opponents. Giran also thought that breaking the wall was a big deal. However, i'll move giran up a bit, to above bacterian.
Goku was serious... he had the upperhand but Giran was able to trade blows with him and was able to deal damage on him. Giran only admitted defeat after Goku's tail grew back.

Also, what in the RRA and Uranai Baba sagas suggests Yamcha and Krillin were even remotely close?

It was shown in the next tournament how goku has different levels of going all out.
- He fought krillin, & agreed not to hold back.
- He then told krillin that he's going to go "even more all out"
- He fought tien at a higher power than when he fought krillin
- He then told tien that he's going to go "full power" now.

These are 4 levels of going all out. He also told krillin to not go all out on weak opponents, as it may risk killing them. Giran's strongest attack hurt goku only a little. Also, till this point in the series, weak people could hurt strong ones , like bulma hitting roshi.

On Yamcha vs krillin being close debate, they have never been leagues apart in the series, not till namek arc.
Yamcha was confident in being able to beat all 4 fighters of baba at once, seeing krillin lose, & knowing that they will get stronger only. In the next tournament, he didn't do very bad against tien, who was equal to goku's FULL POWER.

Also, if i'm not mistaken, at some point krillin himself says that yamcha is "nearly as good as him". Goku also called yamcha "super strong".
Yamcha was confident to win the tournament, before seeing goku there. This means he must've surpassed an average champion. He also seems to have a lot of knowledge. He must've become stronger than what he expeected to be competition at tournament.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:43 pm

apex_pretador wrote: It was shown in the next tournament how goku has different levels of going all out.
- He fought krillin, & agreed not to hold back.
- He then told krillin that he's going to go "even more all out"
- He fought Tenshinhan at a higher power than when he fought krillin
- He then told Tenshinhan that he's going to go "full power" now.

These are 4 levels of going all out. He also told krillin to not go all out on weak opponents, as it may risk killing them. Giran's strongest attack hurt goku only a little. Also, till this point in the series, weak people could hurt strong ones , like bulma hitting roshi.

I know... but my point is Goku wasn't holding back when he fought Giran and the latter kept with somewhat. Goku was simply stronger with his tail.

Goku's body is naturally resilient so it allows him to shrug off attacks that would otherwise do great harm to him with relative ease. Also those scenes of Bulma "hurting" Muten Roshi are gag scenes of little importance.

On Yamcha vs krillin being close debate, they have never been leagues apart in the series, not till namek arc.
Yamcha was confident in being able to beat all 4 fighters of baba at once, seeing krillin lose, & knowing that they will get stronger only. In the next tournament, he didn't do very bad against Tenshinhan, who was equal to goku's FULL POWER.

Krillin lost because he underestimated his opponent severely... and Yamcha fighting Tien was 3 years later which was after he trained under the Turtle School. Also, Tien was holding back against him... he was surprised at Yamcha's strength but he quickly gained the upper hand once he got a little serious and he didn't even use his true power.

Also, if i'm not mistaken, at some point krillin himself says that yamcha is "nearly as good as him". Goku also called yamcha "super strong".
Yamcha was confident to win the tournament, before seeing goku there. This means he must've surpassed an average champion. He also seems to have a lot of knowledge. He must've become stronger than what he expeected to be competition at tournament.

Yamcha was only "nearly as good as him" after training under the Turtle School... before then he was just a really strong guy and Goku was speaking in relative terms to when he fought him months earlier when he too was just a really strong guy. Back then he was impressive but in the 21st Budokai not so much...

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:35 pm

If I can weigh in for a moment. The "fight" between Goku and Giran consists of Giran tricking Goku with a "look over there" move and tail-slamming him into a wall, which Goku easily shrugs off. Goku proceeds to punch Giran in the gut, causing him to double over in pain, and throw him out of bounds. After Giran flies back in, we get to the "Guru Guru Gum" part of the fight, were Goku is thrown out of bounds, Kinto-Uns his way back in, is almost punched, before growing back his tail in the nick-of-time. He then proceeds to break the gum around him and kicks down a wall. Giran then forfeits. Within all of the flying, tail, and Guru Guru Gum shenanigans, Goku and Giran trade blows once. And the difference is obvious. Goku gets up, mildly irritated, and Giran is coughing and hacking.

I don't think you can really use Giran's and Yamcha's performances in their fights as a totally accurate comparison of their strength and skill. Goku and Roshi may be of about equal strength, but Roshi is more experienced, skilled, and is, frankly, a lot smarter than Goku. Whose to say that Yamcha wouldn't put up a better fight against Goku than he did against Roshi, or that he'd put up a better fight than Giran did?

Also, Giran is what I like to call a "gimmick fighter", aka: someone who is incapable of keeping up with the main characters in terms of straightforward ability and has to rely on tricks and gimmicks to stand a chance. Take away or work around the gimmick, and they fall easily. Giran tail slamming Goku and Goku barely taking damage, and Giran doubling over from one of Goku's punches is to show that Goku is superior to Giran in straightforward ability,which is cemented when Giran forfeits when Goku shows some of his true power.

I'm not saying that Yamcha has to be stronger than Giran, it's entirely possible that Giran is stronger. I just want to show that Giran doesn't have to be stronger than Yamcha, and that using circumstantial evidence shouldn't be used to show that Character A has to be stronger than Character B.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:19 pm

So how many times stronger you guys have Gohan over SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc?

Darkron2151 · Post by **Darkron2151** » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:24 pm

Zombie wrote:So how many times stronger you guys have Gohan over SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc?

I'd say 5 times (could be more though, depending on Gotenks). *This is using SEG multiplier for SSJ3 (assuming it applies to Gotenks)*

Goku (SSJ3): 24

Evil Boo: 80

Gotenks (SSJ1): 12
Gotenks (SSJ3): 96

Ultimate Gohan: 120

Funny thing is I was gonna ask that very thing on this thread.

Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:36 pm

Zombie wrote:So how many times stronger you guys have Gohan over SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc?

Upwards of 5x stronger. That's about the minimum with SS1 Gotenks (eventually) being a match for Fat Boo:

SS3 Goku: 10
SS Gotenks: 5
-- SS3 Gotenks: 40
Fat Boo: 5
-- Evil Boo: 40
Ultimate Gohan: 50

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:43 pm

Zombie wrote:So how many times stronger you guys have Gohan over SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc?

Thousands of times stronger. I don't have any specific numbers, but when I do play around with numbers it usually ends up in the thousands range.

Darkron2151 · Post by **Darkron2151** » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:45 pm

Kaboom wrote: Upwards of 5x stronger. That's about the minimum with SS1 Gotenks (eventually) being a match for Fat Boo:

SS3 Goku: 10
SS Gotenks: 5
-- SS3 Gotenks: 40
Fat Boo: 5
-- Evil Boo: 40
Ultimate Gohan: 50

@Kaboom, what are your thoughts on the levels/gaps of the Children (Goten & Trunks) in relation to the Adults (Vegeta, Goku, Gohan) and even Piccolo?

Kanzenshuu

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