Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[supercat]

Off topic but I thought I'd put in my two cents regarding the whole Tagoma / Gohan debate.

Due to an absence of training, Base Gohan (formerly Ultimate Gohan) likely plummeted back down to where he was at during his Super Perfect Cell-busting days (SSJ2-tier). The fact that Tagoma sought out Gohan is enough of an indicator that the latter in his base form was noticably stronger than Piccolo, who by this point should at least be a notch or two below MSSJ Goku (against Super Perfect Cell). This in turn likely means that Tagoma now possesses a power at least a few tiers above the once awe-inspiring strength wielded by enraged SSJ2 Gohan. Now, seeing as how Ginyu was able to tap into an even greater source of power, I'm inclined to believe that the body swapping mutant could be anywhere between SSJ2 Gohan (against Super Perfect Cell) and any of the Buus; excluding Buutenks and Buuhan of course.

Despite the major decline in power, Gohan still had access to a rustier version of his former Ultimate incarnation, by simply going SSJ. It seems very plausible that this innate accessiblity was what granted our out of shape hero the power to beat down Ginyu.

Honestly, I'm baffled by fans who actually think SSJ Gohan is barely on par with his MSSJ self during the Cell Games. Really? Is that why Tagoma chose to take Base Gohan out over Piccolo...?

I'd probably put them a bit lower. Base Gohan would probably be about equal to his old Super Saiyan power rather than Super Saiyan 2, and Ginyu/Tagoma is about on par with Super Perfect Cell. Other than that, I agree totally.

Well even if we deem Base Gohan = SSJ2 Gohan as an overstatement, I'm still not convinced that Base Gohan is merely SSJ (Cell Games / Buu arc) tier, as that would basically mean that his gap with Piccolo is negligible. My guess is somewhere between SSJ and SSJ2 or again, exactly on par with the latter.

I'm also under the impression that Tagoma is a few tiers higher than Super Perfect Cell while Ginyu is likely closer to Majin Buu (initial appearance). Surviving a beating from SSJ Gohan, who was likely more or less at a level akin to his Super Buu-busting days definitely helps justify this.

So in short, I have the following:

Piccolo: A few notches below or above Cell Jr. / Perfect Cell-tier.
Base Gohan: Anywhere between a tier or two below Super Perfect Cell to being able to tangle with an SSJ2.
SSJ Gohan: A notch below his former Ultimate incarnation on the weak end, but could very well have drawn out all the power he had when he beat down Super Buu; on a time limit of course.

Tagoma: Probably somewhere between SSJ2 Gohan and Majin Buu (initial appearance),
Ginyu: Majin Buu (initial appearance) on the low end of the spectrum, but could very well be closing in on Super Buu.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan is easy to measure for me since I go with Super Saiyan = Drawing out his ultimate power.

Ginyu and Tagoma on the other hand are very difficult. At first it was said that his hiding power (Ginyu) was on par to Gohan's best (Ultimate power? Current best?), then he powers up and Piccolo doesn't make it sound that it is a big power up but then Ginyu calls Gohan's power puny and extremely disappointing. Gohan then transforms and Ginyu says: "I didn't think you were hiding this much power" implying a big power up but he still attacks him but gets two shotted by Gohan. Remember that Ginyu is not the kind of fighter that attacks someone that is way above him, so he shouldn't be multiple times weaker than Gohan.

My take? Ginyu is at the bare minimum as strong as Super Buu if Gohan is as strong as his all time best.

[Darkron2151]

Gohan is easy to measure for me since I go with Super Saiyan = Drawing out his ultimate power.

Ginyu and Tagoma on the other hand are very difficult. At first it was said that his hiding power (Ginyu) was on par to Gohan's best (Ultimate power? Current best?), then he powers up and Piccolo doesn't make it sound that it is a big power up but then Ginyu calls Gohan's power puny and extremely disappointing. Gohan then transforms and Ginyu says: "I didn't think you were hiding this much power" implying a big power up but he still attacks him but gets two shotted by Gohan. Remember that Ginyu is not the kind of fighter that attacks someone that is way above him, so he shouldn't be multiple times weaker than Gohan.

My take? Ginyu is at the bare minimum as strong as Super Buu if Gohan is as strong as his all time best.

Except Gohan states while fighting Ginyu in Base that he's unable to draw out his full power (Ultimate), but is able to transform into a SSJ without an issue, but only hold it for a couple minutes. That implies to me that SSJ Gohan still isn't at his past level of power (though way closer than current base form), but is still incorporating it into his transformation. It would make no sense for Ginyu to be near Gohan's past peak (Ultimate) if SSJ Gohan (who's weaker than that) was able to completely trounce him with 2 non-lethal blows.

[ZombieVito]

We will never be sure until it gets confirmed in an interview or guidebook. I took the scene as Gohan not wanting to go Super Saiyan because of the stress it takes on his weak body. It's like getting to full speed by using nitro instead of just getting there at a normal pace. You're going to get blown up.

In any case both stances can work.

[Khin]

I made my prediction on how strong Boo,Piccolo,Goku and Vegeta have become in the tournament saga and also the new characters.It should also be noted that i dont follow the 6-10-15 statement anymore since

1: Whis said that comparing Goku and Vegeta to Beerus (Pre ROF) was like comparing a small tree to a castle.
2: Beerus states in ROF that Base Goku got far stronger than before.
3: Following the 6-10-15 will be a massive mess,considering Goku and Vegeta trained for about 3 years for the preparation for the tournament.

Tournament Arc

Spoiler:

Vados = 26.0
- slightly stronger than Whis

Whis = 25.0

Beerus = 10.0

Champa = 9.5
- slightly weaker than Beerus

Monaka = 9.2
- Very close to Beerus

Magetta = 9.0
- Strongest guy in Universe 6 team

Hit = 8.6
- Slightly stronger than Goku

SSjB Goku = 8.5

SSjb Vegeta = 8.5
- Equal to Goku

Kabe = 8.2
- Slightly weaker than Vegeta

Piccolo = 7.5

Frost = 7.5
- Equal to Piccolo

Botamo = 6.5

Boo = 6.2
- Slightly weaker than Botamo

ROF Arc

Spoiler:

Golden Freeza = 6.0

SSjb Goku = 5.0

SSjb Vegeta = 5.0
- Equal to Goku

Base Goku = 2.5

Base Vegeta = 2.5

Final Form Freeza = 2.0

BOG Arc

Spoiler:

Beerus (vs.SSjG Goku) = 1.2

SSjB Goku = 1.0

SSj Goku (Post God) = 1.0

Base Goku (Post God) = 0.75
- Despite reverting to base,Goku was still able to punch out the Supernova like thing in ep 14.

[Doctor.]

That's too low for Super Saiyan God Goku. Beerus used 10% of his power against enraged Vegeta, do you think he'd keep praising God Goku's power (especially after all of the boosts he kept getting) if he was only forced to use 10% of his power in total? I think the 6-10 scale works fine (iffy on the 15 for Whis, always thought it was too small).

Enraged Vegeta: 0.8

Super Saiyan God: 3.0
-- After power boost: 4.5
-- After second power boost: 6.0
----- Base: 5.5
----- Super Saiyan: 6.0

Base Goku: 6.2
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 7.75

Base Vegeta: 6.3
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 7.87

Freeza: 6.0
-- Golden: 8.0

[Khin]

That's too low for Super Saiyan God Goku. Beerus used 10% of his power against enraged Vegeta, do you think he'd keep praising God Goku's power (especially after all of the boosts he kept getting) if he was only forced to use 10% of his power in total? I think the 6-10 scale works fine (iffy on the 15 for Whis, always thought it was too small).

Enraged Vegeta: 0.8

Super Saiyan God: 3.0
-- After power boost: 4.5
-- After second power boost: 6.0
----- Base: 5.5
----- Super Saiyan: 6.0

Base Goku: 6.2
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 7.75

Base Vegeta: 6.3
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 7.87

Freeza: 6.0
-- Golden: 8.0

Yeah i forgot about the Rageta part,but why do you have SSjB Goku and Golden Freeza so close ? In seems Freeza is beating Goku way worse that it was in the movie.And do you think Goku and Vegeta will only recieve a very small gain the ROSAT for 3 years ?

[Doctor.]

I could increase it to 8.5 or so, honestly, in fact I think that's what I should do. I don't think the RoSaT will give them a big power boost, maybe they get to 8.0 both.

I also think Super is implying that Vegeta's slightly stronger as of now, but Toriyama implied in the films otherwise, and I'm sure this will be true in the universe 6 arc as well. So in the tournament arc, I think they'll be equal or Goku will be sightly superior despite the F arc here implying otherwise.

[ekrolo2]

That's too low for Super Saiyan God Goku. Beerus used 10% of his power against enraged Vegeta, do you think he'd keep praising God Goku's power (especially after all of the boosts he kept getting) if he was only forced to use 10% of his power in total? I think the 6-10 scale works fine (iffy on the 15 for Whis, always thought it was too small).

Enraged Vegeta: 0.8

Super Saiyan God: 3.0
-- After power boost: 4.5
-- After second power boost: 6.0
----- Base: 5.5
----- Super Saiyan: 6.0

Base Goku: 6.2
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 7.75

Base Vegeta: 6.3
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 7.87

Freeza: 6.0
-- Golden: 8.0

Yeah i forgot about the Rageta part,but why do you have SSjB Goku and Golden Freeza so close ? In seems Freeza is beating Goku way worse that it was in the movie.And do you think Goku and Vegeta will only recieve a very small gain the ROSAT for 3 years ?

The ROSAT losses most of its effectiveness after the first time you go in. Them training in it is nothing more than a way to get a lot more practice in than they would in the few days available training under Whis. They're marginally stronger at best once they get out.

[Hugo Boss]

Honestly, I'm baffled by fans who actually think SSJ Gohan is barely on par with his MSSJ self during the Cell Games. Really? Is that why Tagoma chose to take Base Gohan out over Piccolo...?

Tagoma is probaly based on the fact that Gohan is a Saiyan, Goku's son and the one in charge, so Tagoma must have assumed Gohan is the strongest of the 5-men group. By the way, Gohan started weaker than Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super and is even weaker in F Arc.

[ekrolo2]

Could someone tell me where the idea of SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku comes from?

[Doctor.]

Could someone tell me where the idea of SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku comes from?

Goku says that the kids when fused will become stronger than Fat Boo and himself. And he didn't know about Super Saiyan 3 (one could make an argument about him knowing that they could get SS2, but SS is the safest bet). But, as we know, Gotenks still trained and Goku was lying to Piccolo about his strength, so most people just opt to say that SS Gotenks = SS3 Goku.

[supercat]

Honestly, I'm baffled by fans who actually think SSJ Gohan is barely on par with his MSSJ self during the Cell Games. Really? Is that why Tagoma chose to take Base Gohan out over Piccolo...?

Tagoma is probaly based on the fact that Gohan is a Saiyan, Goku's son and the one in charge, so Tagoma must have assumed Gohan is the strongest of the 5-men group. By the way, Gohan started weaker than Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super and is even weaker in F Arc.

So we're disregarding the easiest and most straightforward route of Base Gohan > Piccolo and resorting to an unnecessarily complicated speculation because...?

I still don't see in any flaws in placing Shisami around Perfect Cell-tier and Tagoma around Super Perfect Cell / Majin Buu (initial). Don't you think that doing so would make a whole lot more sense than assuming that Piccolo magically dropped down to Zarbon-tier or Gohan was having trouble with someone barely above the Ginyu Force?

What does Vegeta have to do with any of this?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Could someone tell me where the idea of SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku comes from?

To me it seems that people assume that since both are said to be able to beat Fat Boo, they should be equal. I disagree with that sentiment, though. Goku himself said Gotenks would be stronger.

[Hugo Boss]

Honestly, I'm baffled by fans who actually think SSJ Gohan is barely on par with his MSSJ self during the Cell Games. Really? Is that why Tagoma chose to take Base Gohan out over Piccolo...?

Tagoma is probaly based on the fact that Gohan is a Saiyan, Goku's son and the one in charge, so Tagoma must have assumed Gohan is the strongest of the 5-men group. By the way, Gohan started weaker than Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super and is even weaker in F Arc.

So we're disregarding the easiest and most straightforward route of Base Gohan > Piccolo and resorting to an unnecessarily complicated speculation because...?

I still don't see in any flaws in placing Shisami around Perfect Cell-tier and Tagoma around Super Perfect Cell / Majin Buu (initial). Don't you think that doing so would make a whole lot more sense than assuming that Piccolo magically dropped down to Zarbon-tier or Gohan was having trouble with someone barely above the Ginyu Force?

What does Vegeta have to do with any of this?

...Tagoma just assumed Gohan is the strongest. In fact, his reason is irrelevant for this topic. If you think Tagoma has properly analised Gohan's strength before attacking him, you are also speculating.

I don't have any problem with thinking Ginyu Force as having power comparable to perfect-form Cell, if you like. The fact is that Tagoma is the first soldier in Freeza's army to surpass Ginyu Force, Shisami didn't. Sorbet was well aware of Shisami's power, he just overlooked the fruits of Tagoma's training.

And, I just commented on Vegeta because you seem to think it's absurd to compare current Gohan to the one that fought Cell without SS2. Current Gohan can barely sustain SS and even if he could do it with no problem he is still weaker than Vegeta when he fought Boo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But Goku was going to kill Kaioshin with just regular Super Saiyan.

Who said he was going to kill him? He just showed that he didn't hesitate to attack Kaioshin, showing how serious he was about fighting Vegeta.

Piccolo flat-out says that Goku is fighting at full power, and just that his Chi is lower than it should be. No one ever comments that Goku is fighting off balanced either, only that he's being sloppy and rushing the match.

But being sloppy means that he isn't fighting as he should be.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But being sloppy means that he isn't fighting as he should be.

It doesn't mean that his blows are weaker. It only refers to his form. It doesn't change Piccolo saying that Goku is fighting at full power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But being sloppy means that he isn't fighting as he should be.

It doesn't mean that his blows are weaker. It only refers to his form. It doesn't change Piccolo saying that Goku is fighting at full power.

But Piccolo also says that Goku's power should be much greater than that, meaning that he is fighting with his available full power.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But Piccolo also says that Goku's power should be much greater than that, meaning that he is fighting with his available full power.

That was what I was trying to say the whole time. I thought you were arguing that sick Goku's blows/hits didn't match his battle power.

That's also why I asked if you had sick Goku's battle power at around 8,000,000, because it should be lower than Piccolo's full power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I thought you were arguing that sick Goku's blows/hits didn't match his battle power.

That's what I believe. He is sick, so it's not just his battle power that has fallen, everything (strength, speed, etc) has fallen. Which is why he is sloppy.