Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:26 pm

Like I've said a few times already, there's certainly some things in the Boo arc that might imply the base Saiyans are stronger than the likes of Freeza, and we could all debate those points until the heat death of the universe... but there's nothing that actually plainly states or shows it.

There is no part where Eighteen thinks to herself, "I'm using nearly my full power but this weirdo [Mighty Mask] is still keeping up with me."

Despite some misconceptions, Vegeta doesn't actually specifically say "I'm still going to win the tournament" or "I'm still stronger than everyone else here," he merely makes a broader claim of superiority among his fellow Super Saiyans who presumably also aren't going to use Super Saiyan.

And there's especially no part where Kaioshin says "oh no, it's Pui-Pui, this guy's even stronger than Freeza, maybe even stronger than me," immediately before Pui-Pui gets easily un-alived by Vegeta.

Any one of those hypothetical things would actually hold as much straightforward weight as the "[Goku] can't defeat Freeza without gaining power by going Super Saiyan" line from Beerus in Battle of Gods, and as such create a genuine contradiction between the two stories. But they don't, because they don't exist. The Majin Boo arc is surprisingly heavy on direct "<character> is stronger than <character>" dialogue, but there's a distinct lack of any lines stating that the base-form Saiyans are stronger than Freeza, Piccolo, Kaioshin, or whoever else.

And also again, if Toriyama re-read the Boo arc and then had no problem with either writing or leaving in the line from Beerus, then I see no reason to object to it either.

Mireya · Post by **Mireya** » Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:16 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:06 pm At the end of day, this discussion is entirely speculative. I’m just presenting possible solutions that Saiyans might figure out during a moment of need, I’m not suggesting they should think exactly as I said to prove my point, nor did I suggest every Saiyan would be able to concoct that move. It’s only something within the realm of possibility. Trunks did it against Goten. Goku did it against Yakon. Vegeta did it against Goku. Vegeta did it against Goku Black. Just a few examples. Did Vegeta needed it against 18 or Piccolo? Who knows. You should ask Toriyama this, not me. He left that question unanswered for 15 years, until Beerus slapped it in our faces.

Re: Trunks vs 18. I will just quote Cipher here: dialogue references are solid; panel-to-panel exchanges come with question marks. Action panels don’t follow a particular pattern. Historically this logic led to silly conclusions, like Piccolo being intended to be god level in the manga, lol. Silly me also advocated for that before Super Hero (again) slapped it in my face that he was not.

It's speculative because the suggestion of them using it in a pitch is speculative... Which wasn't shown in the story or hinted at. So while somewhat possible, the story leaves no tools that the Saiyans there thought about that. Instances of it happening doesn't mean it was a thing then, when Vegeta made his statement and said his superior position wouldn't change. So it's unlikely he would use it or saw it as necessary because the story didn't imply that in any way as needed. Gohan didn't seem to think that way, and he proposed the rule knowing 18 would be there. In the instances you cited, we had Kid Trunks doing so and everyone noticing... So as far as the manga goes, there wasn't a very quick usage that the crown didn't notice as far as I'm aware. In regards to Goku, that was the trap he set... It's not like SSJ wouldn't be plenty, ofc, we know it, but the usage was circumstantial and shown. Same with the other ones... Shown instances. Vegeta did that when Goku had him cornered with the repeated usage of Shunkan Ido... So Goku got him unexpectedly. Same for Trunks being stronger than Goku predicted, so Goku in an instinct turned into God... It's different here when Vegeta is aware of 18's power and so is Gohan and no method of this being applied is ever brought. So it's an unlikely scenario and looking at it on its own, there's nothing there except Vegeta asserting his superiority in base and Gohan being cool fighting in base knowing ppl >> Freeza would be there. So it's a different scenario. It's as straightforward a statement as Beerus'... Though Beerus' one, much the same way, questions can be raised. What if Goku were suppressed? True that no one brought it, but much the same way you may bring in hypothetical scenarios that weren't implied, for more that they have a precedent (though in other circumstances), I can also easily do so to this apparent "slap in my face"... As the same movie had Goku being implied as > Gotenks... And Piccolo clearly thinking of base Gotenks as above himself. And the next movie had heavy implications for base Gohan outdoing Piccolo,with the anime portraying them, at least, as equals. So the same series brings up things that don't make the statement in anyway definitive.

About the Trunks vs Goten, the panel to panel was the depiction of the fight itself, which had Trunks blocking most hits from 18 until she threw them off by kicking where they couldn't move. It had Trunks enduring very well a hit from 18. Kaboom said there was no comment of her going FP, but there was no comment of her holding back, either. The entry we had, Daizenshuu, established that the kids showed strength on par with #18, not specifying any suppression state... For were it the case, the strength would be on par with a suppressed 18, not 18. The same can be said for BoG, no one noted Goku as being FP there when being assessed by Beerus... So it doesn't make much sense to apply different logics to situations without anyone specifying it openly, for it's as clear as the Beerus' one. We hadn't many direct statements within the manga, but we could Infer, because lack of a direct statement doesn't make the implications any less meaningful when they can be connected in a way that portray something, at least, heavily to one side. Heck, the Vegeta statement was part oriented to the Saiyans, as he was mostly implying the conditions for them all would be the same... But also, that "his superior position won't change with this rule". If Vegeta is suddenly not above 18, then his superior position does change. So for the most that he specified fighting in base would be the same to every Saiyan, the superior position ought to be accounting everyone who'd be fighting there, as he can't know who he will fight with. The conditions are the same for everyone not transforming, but that doesn't suddenly shut the comparison to the Saiyans alone, as a superior position is an overall statement as he knows not only Saiyans are there. Gohan does so too.

Koitsukai · Post by **Koitsukai** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:22 am

And just a thought from an out of universe perspective, that is worth less than actual headcanon.
Toriyama seems to like Freeza. He brought him back twice. If he likes Freeza so much, then it stands to reason he had preferred to let Freeza retain some type of authority even if it's just a temporary one that ends once Goku turns SS, by the time he finished his original story.

He made a point of having Freeza be so much stronger than Goku, that Goku's room for growth was quite big, especially when he will spend most of his time directly mastering his never ending transformations.
I'd venture to say he left that ambiguous on purpose, maybe undecided himself if he wanted to let Goku fully surpass Freeza or not. Or maybe I'm overthinking this Toriyama angle way too much, and he didn't even remember Freeza. But he did, though.

Shin does use Freeza as a remarkable benchmark making characters pay attention to his tale for their own sake.
Narratively speaking, if he has been left so far behind, he doesn't work as a benchmark. I mean, not much better than Nappa in the Namek arc.
If everybody now trumps Freeza, if base Goten shits on him, and these suppossed new gods are somewhat stronger than Goku's current base form, then this Buu person isn't a threat at all.
Buu is what, too much for their base forms? fine, we all have two more forms, three actually, your fallen gods of the Olympus sound as strong as my 8 year old son, my son's bully is your big threat?... Goku and Vegeta are much better entertained fighting each other, letting Gohan and the kids go work this one out. There's no arc, there's no threat. Buu doesn't scare me.

But if a bunch of SS level gods, comparable to our heroes' most recent level, failed to stop a guy and he is coming back... well, that's a different route, much more interesting. Now it doesn't sound as easy, and I'm talking from a narrative POV, not from the characters, how they reacted or how things transpired. The bigger the threat, the better, but if the new threat's biggest feat is beating our base forms then I'm not impressed. If Freeza loses value, so does the threat.

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:11 am

Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:39 amYeah, not saying that Saiyans don’t get stronger the more they fight strong opponents by other means, but fundamentally the largest power-ups until the battle with Freeza in the manga were seen in zenkais, like Vegeta was explaining to Dodoria in the panels you linked.

And by getting stronger as they fight, more often than not their power-ups are accompanied or represented by transformations or special skills. In Cell arc, the large bulk of Goku gains came from honing Super Saiyan in the RoSaT, while in Boo arc he focused on SS2, SS3 and Fusion. Goku ended up a bit stronger than Gohan from 7 years before, if we take all that from him.

Yes, the largest increase in power comes from those methods, but by no means that mean that the normal increase in power they get during the fights are to be taken as playing a minor role, that's where the gap of sixteen years come into play. There were a lot of fights and trainings after Freeza and before Beerus, plus the zenkais and whatnot and you may get a base Goku that can defeat Freeza by AGE 778.

Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:39 amBut before that, their gains in base form were not put to test against people remarkably stronger than Freeza.

Well, there is Gohan versus Dabura. If you settle on "Gohan was using Super Saiyan", and considering he's weaker than his pre-teen self, and that he was still putting up some fight, that could imply Goku and Vegeta could have taken him out easily as base or Super Saiyan. Dabura is as strong as Cell and he is stronger than Freeza. That would suggest Goku and Vegeta could take the latter out in base form by Majin Buu saga (and more than "most definitely" by the time Movie 14 happens).

QuakingStar · Post by **QuakingStar** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:14 am

I think that Namek Arc Frieza at his full power is still a bit stronger than the base Saiyans at the beginning of BoG arc.

Also who is to say that Shin has ever seen Frieza's full power? Beerus likely has, he could have easily ordered Frieza to fight him with all he's got in order to see what he is capable of similar to how he fought Goku on King Kai's planet. This is how Beerus would KNOW how strong Frieza truly is and if Shin himself has never seen Frieza's full power then Shin could easily be basing his own comment and experience on Frieza's first form which is what he would have definitely have seen Frieza in.

Remember that Shin and Kibito had no idea SS2 was a thing nor how strong the first SS form actually made the users until they saw them so they clearly cannot sense energy signatures from a certain distance especially if it isn't large enough and they clearly didn't know how strong Frieza actually was.

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:19 am

QuakingStar wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:14 amAlso who is to say that Shin has ever seen Frieza's full power?

Who's to say Beerus saw Goku at full power in the exact moment he uttered that line?

Mireya · Post by **Mireya** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 8:57 am

Who's to say Goku was at FP when Beerus said that? Who's to say 18 was at FP when fighting Mighty Mask? Who's to say Vegeta wasn't thinking of using SSJ in bursts? Who's to say Beerus could get a read on Goku's FP when he was examining him? Who's to say Beerus wasn't goading Goku to transform when the movie also implied Goku was > Gohan and Gotenks (whose base state had Piccolo in utter shock)? When applying the same standard to Beerus' line people apply to the general manga, it also becomes very little straightforward as far as implications go... And that's not even picturing the next movie.

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:06 pm

Mireya wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:16 pm It's speculative because the suggestion of them using it in a pitch is speculative...

No, I mean it's speculative because, despite what Vegeta said, it doesn't mean he really has outstriped 18 and Piccolo in his base form. This is usually people projecting their own preconceived ideas into what a character said. What he says here is merely a braggart moment, loaded with subjectivism, not an impartial statement about the true state of things that we usually use as evidence. This is not to say Vegeta can't make such claims, he actually do it quite a lot, but you should tell the difference.

Add it to this non-exaustive list:

Spoiler:

Just a few examples to note. Gotenks and Majin Boo also have plenty of those braggart statements that in the end don't amount to nothing.

It's as straightforward a statement as Beerus'... Though Beerus' one, much the same way, questions can be raised. What if Goku were suppressed? True that no one brought it, but much the same way you may bring in hypothetical scenarios that weren't implied, for more that they have a precedent (though in other circumstances)

Totally different. Beerus has no need to praise Freeza, his statement is as objective as it can be. He is comparing different people other than himself. It doesn't matter if Goku was supressed or not, because Beerus can tell regardless. One is a very direct and objetive comparison. The other is just an entirely subjective that doesn't hold any weight even among the Saiyans that he is comparing himself with.

I can also easily do so to this apparent "slap in my face"... As the same movie had Goku being implied as > Gotenks... And Piccolo clearly thinking of base Gotenks as above himself.

How exactly the movie implies Goku was stronger than Gotenks? You mean SS3 Goku vs. SS Gotenks? That makes sense, but there is nothing suggesting SS3 Goku surpassed SS3 Gotenks. Also, Base Gotenks' strength is entirely speculative, I just take for granted that it was above Base Goku in Boo arc. I'm not sure what Piccolo have claimed about it that we could frame as evidence (?).

And the next movie had heavy implications for base Gohan outdoing Piccolo, with the anime portraying them, at least, as equals. So the same series brings up things that don't make the statement in anyway definitive.

If you are speaking of RoF, the movie only implies Base Gohan can't beat an opponent Piccolo is even with. Super Hero shuts down any possible doubt by portraying Piccolo as relative to SS Gohan, as both prompted the Gammas to activate their adaptation skill to maintain their edge, whereas Base Gohan could not even properly defend himself from Piccolo.

About the Trunks vs Goten, the panel to panel was the depiction of the fight itself, which had Trunks blocking most hits from 18 until she threw them off by kicking where they couldn't move. It had Trunks enduring very well a hit from 18. Kaboom said there was no comment of her going FP, but there was no comment of her holding back, either. The entry we had, Daizenshuu, established that the kids showed strength on par with #18, not specifying any suppression state... For were it the case, the strength would be on par with a suppressed 18, not 18.

Again, you shouldn't resort to what Daizenshuu says in this case, because the fight itself doesn't align with that description. It doesn't even say she was equal to the squirts' base form. This is just again some people projecting words that are not present in the original line. The Daizenshuu implies 18 is equal to the Super Saiyan squirts: "(...) He and Goten participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No.18's, until she managed to see through their disguise. (...)".

Base Trunks was totally struggling in that fight, he didn't even land a single hit in her. Their dynamic very clearly shows she was in control of the match until they transformed into Super Saiyans. Had the match continued further, she would be clearly at disadvantage. It's not the first mistake the Daizenshuu makes.

Disclaimer: Daizenshuu is a great source of information, it's just not entirely accurate, necessiting some things to be cleared up.

Grimlock wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:11 am There were a lot of fights and trainings after Freeza and before Beerus, plus the zenkais and whatnot and you may get a base Goku that can defeat Freeza by AGE 778.

Zenkais weren't observed after their fight against Freeza, so they didn't get outrageous gains from them anymore. Of course, they didn't stop getting stronger in all their forms, but objectively we lack conclusive data about it. The most likely scenario of them getting stronger was after their RoSaT long sessions, but after that Goku and Vegeta just got barely stronger than Gohan, even with 7 years of training. I find it extremely difficult that they have become over 10 times stronger since they fought Freeza, without counting transformations.

Well, there is Gohan versus Dabura. If you settle on "Gohan was using Super Saiyan", and considering he's weaker than his pre-teen self, and that he was still putting up some fight, that could imply Goku and Vegeta could have taken him out easily as base or Super Saiyan. Dabura is as strong as Cell and he is stronger than Freeza. That would suggest Goku and Vegeta could take the latter out in base form by Majin Buu saga (and more than "most definitely" by the time Movie 14 happens).

I don't see how Base Goku could defeat Dabra if couldn't even defeat Yakon without Super Saiyan. Seems too far-fetched.

QuakingStar · Post by **QuakingStar** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 2:35 pm

Or there's an even better explanation, which is you all are reading too much into it.

Toriyama wanted Beerus to say Frieza was stronger than the base form Goku we see in BoG. Was Goku's power being suppressed in that moment? We don't know. How do you know Toriyama was even thinking of or considering it? You don't.

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 3:27 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:06 pmI don't see how Base Goku could defeat Dabra if couldn't even defeat Yakon without Super Saiyan. Seems too far-fetched.

Then go back and read the chapter again. The only reason Goku transformed into Super Saiyan was to provide light, and upon learning Yakon feeds on it, he just gave that. And considering all of Goku's moves were in base form (two dodges and a kick), yeah... I think he could have defeated Yakon in base form just fine.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 4:40 pm

Grimlock wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 3:27 pm Then go back and read the chapter again. The only reason Goku transformed into Super Saiyan was to provide light, and upon learning Yakon feeds on it, he just gave that. And considering all of Goku's moves were in base form (two dodges and a kick), yeah... I think he could have defeated Yakon in base form just fine.

Gohan didn't think so.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P6.5
Context: after Yakon eats Goku’s Super Saiyan light
Gohan: “Father, I’ll fight too! If there’s two of us, then we’ll be able to win without becoming Super Saiyans!”

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 4:50 pm

Pretty sure Gohan thinks so.

Gohan's line has nothing to do with power level, he just didn't want Goku's energy to be eaten. As you said, he says that after learning Yakon eats energy.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 6:13 pm

Grimlock wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 4:50 pm Pretty sure Gohan thinks so.

Gohan's line has nothing to do with power level, he just didn't want Goku's energy to be eaten. As you said, he says that after learning Yakon eats energy.

That quote is when Gohan thought Goku could use Super Saiyan. When he couldn't then he offers to help. Pretty straight forward.

PowerLevelGuy · Post by **PowerLevelGuy** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:18 pm

The Super anime clearly outlines the following power chain.

Kid Gohan > RoF Gohan > Piccolo RoF

If Base RoF Gohan is already Piccolo superior and he's not even as strong as the child version of himself, what is all of this in depth debate about? We have definitive proof. Perhaps the weakest Base Adult Saiyan proved himself to being stronger than Piccolo.

This is where the definitive evidence lies more than anything, and this happens after Beerus' comment.

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 4:44 pm

There is no evidence in the anime that Base RoF Gohan is superior to Piccolo. Both were shown to be inferior to (Pre-Ginyu) Tagoma, who was clowned by Super Saiyan Gotenks. Gohan only managed something against (Ginyu) Tagoma when he turned into Super Saiyan.

PowerLevelGuy · Post by **PowerLevelGuy** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 9:38 pm

Piccolo gets tanked by Tagoma and Gohan fights him decently.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:36 pm

I wouldn't call catching Tagoma off guard as fighting him decently.

PowerLevelGuy · Post by **PowerLevelGuy** » Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:22 pm

So you think the only reason Gohan did well against a stronger Tagoma is because he caught him off guard and that Base Gohan doesn't actually outperform Piccolo?

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Wed Jan 24, 2024 10:45 pm

PowerLevelGuy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:22 pm So you think the only reason Gohan did well against a stronger Tagoma is because he caught him off guard and that Base Gohan doesn't actually outperform Piccolo?

Tagoma took no damage from Gohan’s ki blast.

PowerLevelGuy · Post by **PowerLevelGuy** » Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:15 pm

Hmm. I'll have to rewatch this whole segment. But what about the sparring later? Didn't Piccolo Vs Gohan suggest they were on par with each other later?

Kanzenshuu

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