Why all the hate for Cell and Buu Sagas?

[MetalMadness]

I always see people praising the Freeza Saga, and everything leading up to it.

But why is there so much dislike for the Cell and Buu sagas? General consensus seems to be that these two sagas are the worst. What are the specific reasons?

[Savage68]

The Cell arc was too overly dramatic, and DB works best when it's at least attempting to be humorous.

The Buu arc was too overly playful, and was chock full of plot fuck-ups.

[AgitoZ]

Well the Boo saga is generally criticized because of its less serious tone and terrible pacing. Another complaint would be Toriyama gave up on DB (even though many would say he put more heart into it), it became too absurd for some.

I for one liked the more comedic route it's very early Dragon Ball like. Also I would argue the Freeza arc also suffers from pacing problems. All the absurd concepts, jokes, and magic are very DB-esque.

But not many complain about Cell though.

[coola]

Maybe not hate,but i dont like in Cell Saga,that almost every main character do stupid things.

[LeprikanGT]

I'm gonna go with that "OH DBZ should have ended at the end of the Frieza saga" BS as why people hate anything after that. I personally LOVE all the Buu stuff, I love the new forms of Buu and the Z warriors, good stuff.

[penguintruth]

People dislike the Androids/Cell arc? That's the best arc in Dragon Ball!

[Choice195]

People dislike the Androids/Cell arc? That's the best arc in Dragon Ball!

Agreed. Seasons 4, 5, and 6 are the greatest arcs.

[Perfect]

Great, another one of these threads. >.>
Full of biased generally unjustifiable stupidity.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

People dislike the Androids/Cell arc? That's the best arc in Dragon Ball!

Agreed. Seasons 4, 5, and 6 are the greatest arcs.

I now can't wait to get the 4th Dragon Box! Mostly because I watched too much Saiya-Jin, Namek, Freeza arcs lately though.....

[Jaetinh]

I don't dislike the Buu saga but it's my least favorite in DBZ. Tien is not seen more than 1/2 times, Yamcha and Krillin stopped fighting (yes bias for human fighters), Goten and Kid Trunks are overpowered like hell, but generally everything and everybody are too strong for my taste. It's been like 5 + (can't remember exactly) years since Cell, but everything's >>>>>>>>> stronger than before.

[AgitoZ]

People dislike the Androids/Cell arc? That's the best arc in Dragon Ball!

Sorry that honor goes to the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc.

Also,

Great, another one of these threads. >.>
Full of biased generally unjustifiable stupidity.

Most threads are like this.

[Choice195]

People dislike the Androids/Cell arc? That's the best arc in Dragon Ball!

Sorry that honor goes to the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc.
:

I would put the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc in 2nd Place.

[caejones]

Let's think of it this way.

If you wanted to make a movie that captured the major plot points of each arc, could it be done without sacrificing some information?
Basic things like "the dragonballs work and we know about them" and basic details on the major (read: Goku and co) can be assumed not to require introduction for this... mental exercise?

But, things such as the tie-ins spanning the RRA, 22nd tournament and Piccolo Daimao arcs--Tao, I'm looking at you--would be hard to hold on to in a one-shot movie.

The RRA as a stand-alone movie? It was done, and honestly, all that was missing was Tao Paipai and Karin. A few other little details, but Tao was the biggest loss.

But the 22nd tournament? It doesn't work without Goku's fight with Tao, and it leads directly into the next arc, and sets up Tenshinhan's motivation throughout that arc.

Piccolo Daimao could conceivably stand alone, but the execution tied in so much of what came before that such would be very lacking.

And, well, the 23rd has no purpose without backstory.

Saiyans-Freeza stands alone rather well--hence why the "Z" distinction works--but that is way too big to work as a single intity. At best, it'd have two, highly related halves. And it certainly expands the world a lot--more so than the Piccolo Daimao arc (I don't know quite where to throw Kami in terms of arc association...).

Cell?
It refers back to the Red Ribbon Army, but rather arbitrarily, certainly once Gero is out of the picture--#16, #17, #18 and Cell couldn't care less about the RRA.
For all intents and purposes, the Cell arc works like a Z movie rather well-- Heroes tangle with minions (just because), boss comes in, is strong, gets over powered, transforms, overpowers for a while, then new amazing power wins the day.
I won't pretend the same can't be said of other arcs in the series, but those all tend to have consequences, and seem more affected by the past.
The most we get from this arc, other than some power creeping, is Goku's death, which is only slightly of any consequence (the brief period that Goku can't train Goten and Trunks... and... I suppose Goten's development, sorta?).

Buu is similar to Cell in the "self-contained movie" sense, but even more so, as no attempt is made to tie the plot to the past, or to explain anything left open. It expands on the cosmos considerably--that is certainly true. But the general motivation seems to be "bad guy wants to kill things. Let's fight!"

I know that Toriyama was under a good deal of pressure in the Cell era, hence the multiple changes in villains and such, and it isn't as though either of these arcs actually sucked, so nothing against the author--or the anime staff, for that matter.
But I see a good deal more room for improvement in the last two arcs.

Though, I suppose this was somewhat rushed, so I probably said something ridiculous in there. ^^

[VegettoEX]

Great, another one of these threads. >.>
Full of biased generally unjustifiable stupidity.

What on Earth are you talking about...?!

Before you go ranting and raving about supposed "stupidity", you may want to let a thread actually go on for a few posts. This is just painfully silly on your part. Someone asked a question based on some observations they've made (though they haven't said where they're pulling this from), and it's perfectly fine for them to ask about it and it's also perfectly fine for people to explain their own viewpoints.

If you don't have anything to add, please don't bother posting.

[AgitoZ]

Saiyans-Freeza stands alone rather well--hence why the "Z" distinction works--but that is way too big to work as a single intity. At best, it'd have two, highly related halves. And it certainly expands the world a lot--more so than the Piccolo Daimao arc (I don't know quite where to throw Kami in terms of arc association...).

Cell?
It refers back to the Red Ribbon Army, but rather arbitrarily, certainly once Gero is out of the picture--#16, #17, #18 and Cell couldn't care less about the RRA.
For all intents and purposes, the Cell arc works like a Z movie rather well-- Heroes tangle with minions (just because), boss comes in, is strong, gets over powered, transforms, overpowers for a while, then new amazing power wins the day.
I won't pretend the same can't be said of other arcs in the series, but those all tend to have consequences, and seem more affected by the past.
The most we get from this arc, other than some power creeping, is Goku's death, which is only slightly of any consequence (the brief period that Goku can't train Goten and Trunks... and... I suppose Goten's development, sorta?).

Buu is similar to Cell in the "self-contained movie" sense, but even more so, as no attempt is made to tie the plot to the past, or to explain anything left open. It expands on the cosmos considerably--that is certainly true. But the general motivation seems to be "bad guy wants to kill things. Let's fight!"

Though, I suppose this was somewhat rushed, so I probably said something ridiculous in there. ^^

How is the Saiyan arc stand alone?

I mean it works but it doesn't work well. It works much better if the reader or watcher have a history with the characters. The revelations are much more significant.

Other than that and a couple more (23rd Budokai, first part of Jinzoningen arc, etc), I would argue most arcs can be stand alone if you have a basic history with the world and characters.

[Budogenkai]

I think both are great sagas, but my friends logic is that the Namek/Freeza Saga was just so good that everything after that felt flat compared to it. (I still think the Cell saga is the best though)

[Cipher]

Why all the hate?

Because they represent they represent the opposite extremes of the series. I think there's a general agreement that there's a natural progression from the start of the series to the defeat of Freeza. Yes, certain stories are silly, and certain ones serious, but on the whole there's a general sense of escalation. It's serious when you expect it to be serious, and frequently silly in between.

Then you get to the Cell and Buu arcs. You have two fairly stand-alone arcs, each with a silly premise, but with completely opposite tones. The Cell arc is all melodrama and seriousness, the Buu arc all silly and purposely exaggerated.

So really, it depends on what you're looking for in the series. But the arcs being as polar as they are, they're sure to each turn away a certain type of fan. Ask someone what their least favorite arc in the series is, and they'll usually say either Buu or Cell, with the other being one of their favorites. It's because they're approaches are so completely opposite and unbalanced.

Now, me personally? The Cell arc is my least favorite part of the series, while the Buu arc is easily one of my favorites. I could list all the particulars why, and it's a bit more complex than I'm letting on here, but the bottom line is I simply prefer the series when it's being ridiculous.

Another complaint would be Toriyama gave up on DB (even though many would say he put more heart into it), it became too absurd for some.

Oh, the Buu arc definitely smacks of Toriyama burn-out/"Let's just see what I can get away with." That's what makes it great.

I just can't take Dragon Ball as seriously as the Cell arc asks me to, especially when the storyline boils down to a very obvious (and random) Terminator spoof.

[Perfect]

There was something in one of the Daizenshuu interviews about Toriyama saying he had fun with drawing Gotenks and Buu fighting or something. I mean that could be looked at from a ton of perspectives, but it does signify that he had just that with it, fun. So for all those that think he was just pissed off and didn't know why he was going on, there is a bit of evidence that he wasn't. I'd also like to point out during Buu that a lot of elements are reused to fail. Things that worked in the past, failed. Eventually it went back to the whole teamwork ideal, which I loved. It was the alpha and the omega in itself so to speak, it clicked perfectly.

Another thing I'd like to point out that I found a bit odd was that when it was suppose to end with Freeza, Goku would have died as the savior of the universe. Again that's revisited during the Cell saga, maybe Toriyama had it out for Goku? Eh?
These two sagas aren't really heavily bashed by fans, every saga generally is. It's probably just that you read quite a bit of a hateful comments about Cell and Buu. But from what I've seen, nearly every saga gets bashed and bashed and bashed. However, on Daizex the amount of dense arguments on this subject is just repetitive, so I can see where you got the idea.

Also I preferred the Cell saga for a lot of reasons. But to simplify things I'll just say because Cell's in it.

What on Earth are you talking about...?!

Before you go ranting and raving about supposed "stupidity", you may want to let a thread actually go on for a few posts. This is just painfully silly on your part. Someone asked a question based on some observations they've made (though they haven't said where they're pulling this from), and it's perfectly fine for them to ask about it and it's also perfectly fine for people to explain their own viewpoints.

If you don't have anything to add, please don't bother posting.

Maybe I'm the only one that sees a pattern between brain dead arguments about Buu and Cell on the forums that becomes oh so very stale to the point of becoming utterly repulsive, but hey that's just me. I wouldn't call it "raving" or "ranting" due to the fact that there's truth to what I'm saying. I'm also confused as to why you added emphasis on stupidity. I never knew I needed to define such a common word to go in depth about something I was saying or how the inevitable is ever supposed, but I when it comes to the world of the internet and the modern world such demands are rarely every meant, whatever. Generally when I use stupidity I mean tediously dull, and that's exactly what most threads like these turn into. Tediously dull arguments based on perspectives that are mainly immature or just plain ignorant. Threads looking for trouble if you will, that's what I have to add. And just for you my dear, I have added what I would like to call my take on the question at hand.

[Rocketman]

Every single thing after Freeza is based on the good guys suddenly turning retarded, so the story goes to shit.

[Godo]

Every single thing after Freeza is based on the good guys suddenly turning retarded, so the story goes to shit.

I've got to agree there.
I mean, at the Freeza Arc, Vegeta knew about him being inferior to Freeza, so he stole the Dragonballs to gain immortality to be able to defeat him. It was a sly tactic.
In the Cell Arc, he lets Cell become perfect without much thought and gets his ass kicked.
So...yeah.