The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[TobyS]

Android saga team runs a gauntlet.

Round 1
Vegeta Trunks Piccolo Tenshinhan, like before*

Vs 17 instead of 18

*But this time with Goku Gohan Kuririn Yamcha and Chaozu fighting too

If 18 can't beat the first 4 combined according to 17 do the other 5 allow the stronger android to be beaten.

I guess it depends how much stronger 17 is than 18.

Round 2

That big team vs
Weaker future 17 and 18

Round 3

Same but vs
Present stronger 17 and 18

Round 4

Same as round 3 but Tenshinhan can kill 18 with a kikoho at the cost of being ko for the rest of the fight.

Round 5.

Same as round 3 but Goku is not present, as he's still sick.

[Koitsukai]

Android saga team runs a gauntlet.

Round 1
Vegeta Trunks Piccolo Tenshinhan, like before*

Vs 17 instead of 18

*But this time with Goku Gohan Kuririn Yamcha and Chaozu fighting too

If 18 can't beat the first 4 combined according to 17 do the other 5 allow the stronger android to be beaten.

I guess it depends how much stronger 17 is than 18.


Round 2

That big team vs
Weaker future 17 and 18

Round 3

Same but vs
Present stronger 17 and 18

Round 4

Same as round 3 but Tenshinhan can kill 18 with a kikoho at the cost of being ko for the rest of the fight.

Round 5.

Same as round 3 but Goku is not present, as he's still sick.

Round 1:

I think it's Even Steven with the inclusion of Goku and Gohan. Kuririn gets cold feet, Yamcha and Chaozu are non-factors.

So, it's Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and Gohan vs 17. Piccolo and Gohan might go out sooner... I personally don't think 17 would lose to the 3 SS, but if 18 would be overwhelmed by Trunks, Vegeta, Piccolo and Tenshinhan, then 17 should have bigger problems if you add Goku and Gohan. I think the difference between having Goku and Gohan and not having them is bigger than the gap between the twins.

Round 2:

I think both of them win, they killed them all in the future timeline, and IIRC they said that not even vs SS Gohan was able to make them go beyond half their power, so I doubt Goku would make a difference. Probably one of the androids also dies, though.

Round 3:

I think it goes the same way but both androids survive.

Round 4:

Like Round 1 proposed, the 3 SS, Piccolo and Gohan should be too much for 17 if, without the Son family, an android (18) would already be outclassed. So, Tenshinhan saves the day!

Round 5:

Now, I think the androids take it easily. It's pretty much the same canon scenario but with Gohan, Yamcha and that fucking mime I hate so much, and they can't do much. Gohan can't even turn SS.

[PowerLevelGuy]

Base Goku (BoG) vs Base Gotenks (BoG)

[ZombieVito]

Base Goku (BoG) vs Base Gotenks (BoG)

Goku uses Kaioken and one shots him.

[PowerLevelGuy]

Lol, Base Goku (BoG) WITHOUT Kaioken please.

[ZombieVito]

Then Goku loses.

[Hugo Boss]

They are not directly compared, so it’s difficult to tell, but I think it would be doable because Goku had 4 years to catch up to Gotenks and Gohan’s level.

Granted everyone was at least as strong as they were in Majin Boo arc, but even in his ultimate form Gohan didn’t leave much impression on Beerus, and Vegeta was said to have surpassed Goku before Super Saiyan God was achieved, which means Gohan may not be the measure stick at that point.

So, I guess you could work under the assumption that SS3 Goku surpassed Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks by the time of the movie or sometime before.

In resume: even without kaioken Goku has a good chance of winning this match.

[TobyS]

Base Goku (BoG) vs Base Gotenks (BoG)

Gotenks slaughters him, fusion multiplier is greater than ss, either due to the “as strong as the fusees strongest form " fan theory or base gotenks, even accounting for his arrogance, assuming he can beat boo when goten and trunks couldn't.

Ss1 gotenks pre was estimated by goku to be stronger than goku.

That's 8 times stronger *in the same form* before the rosat.

Base goku still can't beat freeza in bog so no one has got that much stronger. Goku gets owned. Skill can't cover that gap.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Gotenks were so strong, Vegeta wouldn't think Beerus one shotting Goku wouldn't be the end of the world.

Beerus says SSJ(2?) Vegeta (Pre rage) is a good fighter but thinks nothing of SSJ Gotenks, so I think skill definitely covers this gap somehow.

[TobyS]

If Gotenks were so strong, Vegeta wouldn't think Beerus one shotting Goku wouldn't be the end of the world.

Beerus says SSJ(2?) Vegeta (Pre rage) is a good fighter but thinks nothing of SSJ Gotenks, so I think skill definitely covers this gap somehow.

Ehh in the manga we see SS3 Gotenks fight him and lose.

He sees Vegeta power up and is hopeful, but the moment they start fighting he sighs and looks disapointed, Vegeta is said to surpass Goku but no one makes any comparison to Gotenks or Gohan.

Even in the anime one shotting Goku means he's stronger than Goku, which means he COULD be stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, it's still cause for concern. It doesn't mean the boys couldn't one shot Goku either.

Base Goku can't have closed the gap much if at all and still be weaker than Freeza in base.

[Hugo Boss]

Base Goku can't have closed the gap much if at all and still be weaker than Freeza in base.

Why not?

[TobyS]

Base Goku can't have closed the gap much if at all and still be weaker than Freeza in base.

Why not?

Because gotenks pre was that much stronger than goku (in the same form) and freeza in the boo arc that goku can't have surpassed gotenks without also surpassing freeza in bog.

[Hugo Boss]

Base Goku can't have closed the gap much if at all and still be weaker than Freeza in base.

Why not?

Because gotenks pre was that much stronger than goku (in the same form) and freeza in the boo arc that goku can't have surpassed gotenks without also surpassing freeza in bog.

Chouzenshuu 4 implies the merged Abo/Cado is "equal to Freeza" and “their power surpassed Gotenks”, presumably Base Gotenks as the film doesn’t show them overwhelming Gotenks in his Super Saiyan form.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[TobyS]

Why not?

Because gotenks pre was that much stronger than goku (in the same form) and freeza in the boo arc that goku can't have surpassed gotenks without also surpassing freeza in bog.

Chouzenshuu 4 implies the merged Abo/Cado is "equal to Freeza" and “their power surpassed Gotenks”, presumably Base Gotenks as the film doesn’t show them overwhelming Gotenks in his Super Saiyan form.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

So the dubiously canon Jsat contradicts it so what. There's two versions of the special (manga/anime) and only Vegeta having a brother is vaguely mentioned in a couple of the three versions of super.

If they are equal to Freeza individually and an explicitly rusty base Goten and Trunks are equal to them, forcing them to fuse, that contradicts the BOG statement.

BOG was more recent, and more Toriyama involved, it Trumps the JSAT.

Also the first quote just shows him "overwhelming Gotenks" not beating him or being more powerful. Gotenks fucks him up in a brief spurt of Super Saiyan, but then goes back to base. Gotenks is then batting away his new attacks fragments in base, and Goku just gets there first before Vegeta. It could be refering to Base Gotenks, or SS1 Gotenks, but we don't even see 3, yet we do see him in ss3 during the BOG manga.

They can't still be above Freeza in Base but also weaker than Goku as a fused SS3 they have either got weaker for Goku or stronger than Freeza, it doesn't work both ways.

There's also weird shit like Gotenks defusing from fat straight away and fusing again with no delay which isn't how fusion works.

In the manga version Gotenks never goes ss1 and Goku seems to go ss2, and only because his attack is endangering the planet, not because Goku can't take him.

The JSAT has Goku saying Satans gonna give them money but in the super anime this doesn't happen till later.

The guidebooks also say silly shit like Goten was equal to Gohan in the Boo saga, despite Gohan saying "they will surpass me soon" (thus making trunks stronger than him)

[Hugo Boss]

If they are equal to Freeza individually and an explicitly rusty base Goten and Trunks are equal to them, forcing them to fuse, that contradicts the BOG statement.

They are equal to Freeza merged, not individually.

In the manga version Gotenks never goes ss1 and Goku seems to go ss2, and only because his attack is endangering the planet, not because Goku can't take him.

Gotenks uses Super Saiyan for a brief moment. Goku uses Super Saiyan to beat AboKado, not SS2.

[ZombieVito]

They are equal to Freeza merged, not individually.

But the text you just posted doesn't say that?

[TobyS]

If they are equal to Freeza individually and an explicitly rusty base Goten and Trunks are equal to them, forcing them to fuse, that contradicts the BOG statement.

They are equal to Freeza merged, not individually.

In the manga version Gotenks never goes ss1 and Goku seems to go ss2, and only because his attack is endangering the planet, not because Goku can't take him.

Gotenks uses Super Saiyan for a brief moment. Goku uses Super Saiyan to beat AboKado, not SS2.

I said the manga i that sentence. I talked about both versions

[Hugo Boss]

They are equal to Freeza merged, not individually.

But the text you just posted doesn't say that?

It cites the merging technique as part of Abo’s strength, saying he overwhelms [Base] Gotenks, so this is when Abo showcases strength rivaling Freeza. And recently Abo and Kado were confirmed to be weaker than Freeza in their unfused state. Besides, Goten and Trunks wouldn’t be able to do anything to them if they were that strong to begin with.

I said the manga i that sentence. I talked about both versions

You said Gotenks never goes Super Saiyan in the manga, which is not true. He uses the rolling punch in Super Saiyan form. And you also said Goku seems to go SS2, but this was just an artistic choice. When his aura stabilizes you can see that he is using just the regular Super Saiyan form.

Anyway, this story was drafted by Toriyama himself, so I don’t see any reason to discredit it.

[ZombieVito]

It cites the merging technique as part of Abo’s strength, saying he overwhelms [Base] Gotenks, so this is when Abo showcases strength rivaling Freeza. And recently Abo and Kado were confirmed to be weaker than Freeza in their unfused state. Besides, Goten and Trunks wouldn’t be able to do anything to them if they were that strong to begin with.

I guess this confirms Namek Freeza > Base Gotenks. That's rad.

[TobyS]

They are equal to Freeza merged, not individually.

But the text you just posted doesn't say that?

It cites the merging technique as part of Abo’s strength, saying he overwhelms [Base] Gotenks, so this is when Abo showcases strength rivaling Freeza. And recently Abo and Kado were confirmed to be weaker than Freeza in their unfused state. Besides, Goten and Trunks wouldn’t be able to do anything to them if they were that strong to begin with.

I said the manga i that sentence. I talked about both versions

You said Gotenks never goes Super Saiyan in the manga, which is not true. He uses the rolling punch in Super Saiyan form. And you also said Goku seems to go SS2, but this was just an artistic choice. When his aura stabilizes you can see that he is using just the regular Super Saiyan form.

Anyway, this story was drafted by Toriyama himself, so I don’t see any reason to discredit it.

Ah reread, he does go SS for one page, but then detransforms, either because he doesn't need to stay in it, or he's rusty and can't maintain it.

Gotenks doesn't have sparks but Goku does, seems deliberate to me when it's like 2 pages apart.

All this is unrelated, if the story was "drafted" by AT he later writes the entire script for BOG, and supervises the BOG manga where Goku is weaker than Freeza in base, Gotenks has SS3 and Gohan still has ultimate

The scan shows each being Ginyu force level individually, then becoming Freeza level individually, the kids beat them up but are weaker than Goku who is weaker than Freeza.

The exact events of the Jsat are no longer canon, both because of the strength contradiction, the anime specific Satan "paying Goku off" continuity issue, the manga specific continuity issue where filler character Gregory's appears, and the instant unfusion and refusion.

1. Vegeta just "has a brother"
2. Abo and Cado exist/ed and were compared to Granolah at some point in an interview.
That's all we can reliably take from it. BOG Trumps JSAT in terms of Primacy and author involvement, it's not that deep and I'm not gonna get involved in this any longer.