Episode #0285 (15 January 2012)

[VegettoEX]

Episode #0285 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes)
40:06; 96 kbps, mono; 27.8 MB

Episode #0285! VegettoEX, Meri, and Hujio discuss a short scene from DragonBall TV episode 56 that essentially paints General Blue as a pedophile. Was this just a poor attempt at humor that fell flat, or is it worthy of additional analysis and condemnation? New merchandise in Brazil, the launch of DBGT on Nicktoons (the kids will be OK, we promise), and more rounds out the episode. Referenced sites:

• Brazilian Merchandise News @ C21Media.net
• DragonBall GT @ Nicktoons
• DB Episode 56 Information @ Kanzentai
• Music Downloads @ Daizenshuu EX

Serious talkings this time 'round! Enjoy.

[Innagadadavida]

I haven't listened yet, but I'd like to point out that the English dub by FUNimation really takes liberties with that scene. He instead thinks the young boy is his long lost brother "Samuel". However the footage remains in tact and the hearts are still in the background. So its still a very creepy and confusing scene. It almost makes it seem incestuous on top of pedophiliac.

[VegettoEX]

I haven't listened yet, but I'd like to point out that the English dub by FUNimation really takes liberties with that scene. He instead thinks the young boy is his long lost brother "Samuel". However the footage remains in tact and the hearts are still in the background. So its still a very creepy and confusing scene. It almost makes it seem incestuous on top of pedophiliac.

Yep, we talked about the FUNimation English dub adaptation. Did mah resarch!

[sailorspazz]

The scene in question represents an unfortunate stereotype attached to homosexual men that basically equates their desire for other men as a desire for any man or boy, no matter what their age. Though homosexuality and pedophilia are completely different things, the association still exists, and unfortunately I don't think it has completely gone away, given that conservative parents still make comments like, "I wouldn't want my kid's teacher to be gay!" The question was brought up whether Blue could actually be labeled a pedophile since he didn't really do anything with the boy in question, but the fact that he said, "Ooh, he's my type!" implies that he has done things with other boys in the past, and even prefers boys over adult men.

This scene still bothers me, even though I'm kind of inclined to forgive it by saying "it was a different time then!" Although, given that Japan isn't exactly a frontrunner in gay rights, I almost think that the scene could still air today and not be seen as inappropriate, sadly.

On a less serious note....I found Meri's side comment of "fuck the children!" to be hilariously inappropriate given the content of this episode

[Piccolo Daimao]

Homosexuality and paedophilia are obviously completely unrelated things, as it's just a retarded, baseless stereotype headed by ultra-conservative, religious fundamentalist zealots who are only seeking to further victimize (if I'm using the word correctly) or make homosexuals look bad. So whenever you have a case of some man being convicted on paedophilia charges that includes a young boy, you'll get some soccer mum jump up and make the stupid connection that because he's a paedophile because he's a gay. Of course, while completely ignoring the fact that prepubescent boys and girls look practically the same in terms of physicality, and paedophilia is a paraphilia (in other words, a sexual fetish), not a sexual preference.

I also think that part of the reason that conservative parents still make comments like, "I wouldn't want my kid's teacher to be gay!" is because they're afraid of the teacher somehow making their child gay. Irrational fear is irrational.

Anyway, I think it was a poor attempt of humour, but no doubt some people found it funny out of ignorance. Because it's Japan and it's the 1980s, which doesn't condone it, but I can understand why they did it, considering the era. Ironically, FUNimation's English dub, in an attempt to censor it, actually made it worse by making Blue think that the young boy is his long-lost brother "Samuel" (lol at including random English names that don't fit in with Toriyama's naming scheme), but still retaining the footage and implications that he's attracted to him. So he's not just a paedophile, he's incestuous too.

Another small problem that I have with Blue's depiction, in both the manga and the anime, is that they apparently seem to link homosexuality with misogyny. I don't think it's just a coincidence that Toriyama made Blue a homosexual that's disgusted by women. I'm not sure whether or not that's an established stereotype, but either way, I find it just as stupid as the claim that homosexuals are paedophiles.

[KaiserNeko]

Just to point out, there's a difference between "pedophile" and a "child molester". A pedophile is sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Whether or not they actually act upon those urges dictates whether or not they are JUST a pedophile or if they are a child molester. A child molester actually acts upon those urges.

A pedophile thinks, a child molester does.

So, in that, Blue is definitely a pedophile in that scene. Unfortunately, this really has heavy implications that homosexual=pedophile. Whether or not he's a child molester depends on whether or not he actually would have taken advantage of the boy.

[Cipher]

In defense of the indefensible:

I haven't listened to the full episode yet, so forgive me if this has already been discussed. But Obotchaman is an android, right? Is it ever implied in Dr. Slump that he's supposed to be a child (or child-like), or is his age just sort of nebulous? I mean, he does spend his one scene in Dragon Ball fixing a damn car. And given that neither early Dragon Ball nor Dr. Slump adhere very closely to real-world proportions (Suppa Man shows up in the same arc, for example), is it possible he could simply be mistaken for an odd-looking adult? Would Japanese audiences familiar with his character from Dr. Slump not have been bothered by this? Honest question.

Then again, from what I read just now, he apparently carries a flame for Arale, who is pretty clearly a child, so ... yeah, that's pretty skeevy.

Barring that one possible explanation, it is indeed just an unfortunate inclusion passable only due to the time and place of its origin. Which, honestly, can be said about quite a few things in early Dragon Ball.

Cool podcast topic, by the way.

[VegettoEX]

Nah, we totally missed that he's of the android/cyborg variety. My Dr. Slump is incredibly rusty right now, unfortunately.

Glad folks seem to be enjoying the topic so far. Like I said, it's outside the range of things we usually cover, but I want to be able to do these types of discussions, too, and I think they can generate just as much (if not more) discussion from you all than anything else!

[Super Vejito]

Heh, when I saw this episode a while back I was wondering why I've never seen anyone comment on it before.

For me it was kind of pushing it, but I still thought it was funny in an awkward way. It's moreso about what it implies than what it actually depicts, but I'm not sure how deeply it should be read into. Most characters in the series are stereotypes in some way, especially in early DragonBall. I don't think a gay stereotype is necessarily more offensive than a black one, or even the depiction of Bulma (teenage girl) as rather airheaded and slutty for comic relief. A lot of comedy in general comes down to stereotypes and while Japan in that era might have been particularly shallow about it, I don't consider it to be a big deal ultimately. Note though that I'm from a generally tolerant country and am thus not too sensitive towards material that might be offensive to certain groups in society. You can like a joke or not and draw your own line somewhere, but comedy is mostly fair game to me.

Definitely food for thought.

[medama_oyaji]

Unfortunately, I can kinda imagine Toriyama slipping that joke in there... However, in his defense, he did make a point to show that Yamcha was not attracted to Chichi when they first met, which I always thought was a surprisingly classy move.

[medama_oyaji]

But Obotchaman is an android, right? Is it ever implied in Dr. Slump that he's supposed to be a child (or child-like), or is his age just sort of nebulous?

Obotchaman is an android, but just like Arale he is specifically a child robot. He's basically created by a rival scientist to be the anti-Arale, but this just makes him super well-adjusted.

[Akumaito Beam]

This joke does have multiple horrible implications but the more I think about it the more I believe they didn't mean to imply something so shitty. Like most filler I think they stopped at "Hah, that would be cute!" without considering any implications to the overall story. I think the joke is supposed to be more along the lines of "Hah! Silly Blue, what are you doing? This is a totally inappropriate time to be flirting! You vain man y-you're hunting Goku down, you can't go on a date NOW General Blue! Besides we all know that guy Blue, he doesn't like GUYS! That's really presumptious you goofball! This is terrible focus for a General of an evil army!" and less about how he's planning to molest and scar a child soon.

[medama_oyaji]

Also, I think by "his type" he doesn't specifically mean children, I think he means cute and polite (and maybe even with a knack for auto repair?). And so Blue is attracted to him regardless of his age. BUT still gross and inappropriate because the fact remains that he is attracted to a child.

[VegettoEX]

Also, I think by "his type" he doesn't specifically mean children, I think he means cute and polite (and maybe even with a knack for auto repair?). And so Blue is attracted to him regardless of his age. BUT still gross and inappropriate because the fact remains that he is attracted to a child.

I think that's fairly obvious that he's not specifically attracted to children, but as you and the rest of us have noted, the fact that his potential attraction group includes children is the creepy part, and possibly a showcase that the writer(s) of the scene were simply either grossly misinformed about how homosexuality works, or unfortunately played up the stereotype for (failed?) laughs.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Just to point out, there's a difference between "pedophile" and a "child molester". A pedophile is sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Whether or not they actually act upon those urges dictates whether or not they are JUST a pedophile or if they are a child molester. A child molester actually acts upon those urges.

A pedophile thinks, a child molester does.

So, in that, Blue is definitely a pedophile in that scene. Unfortunately, this really has heavy implications that homosexual=pedophile. Whether or not he's a child molester depends on whether or not he actually would have taken advantage of the boy.

That's true, although you can still be prosecuted if you have pornographic material of children in your possession, because they'd technically be taking part in the child abuse, what with supply and demand.

But that's not what Blue did. I just thought I should mention it.

Also, in response to Cipher's post, whether or not Obotchaman's an android doesn't matter. Blue didn't know that, and he still looks like a prepubescent child.

[MCDaveG]

I kinda laughed the first time I saw in the WTF fashion, because I didn't saw that coming
On the other side, it's kinda weird but maybe in our age.
My little brother was really laughing and he didn't thought it's weird that Obotchaman is kid,
he simply fiind funny the situation as a whole. I think the kids watching don't think in the way we are,
adult man, kid - paedophile, but only see two characters in incredibly funny situation as it is not normal.
+ as Dr. Slump was popular enough in Japan and Dragon Ball probably caught lot of fans of it,
I think the Japanese viewers knew that Obotchaman is android. But that's all poor speculation on difficult topic.

That aside, this needs interview with the writer to understand it

I need to listen to this podcast to hear your opinions folks, I like your usual humour and what the hell comments

PS: GT podcast was awesome, only those episodes are kinda weak. Can't wait for the next one!

[SHINOBI-03]

I've read somewhere that Blue's actions are based on a German/Nazi stereotype, anyone care to elaborate on this?

About the scene, I wouldn't mind if Blue admires Obotchaman's politeness, but his attempt to kiss him is what raised my eyebrow!

[Piccolo Daimao]

I've read somewhere that Blue's actions are based on a German/Nazi stereotype, anyone care to elaborate on this?

I think I've read somewhere that General Blue's appearance and uniform was based on the features of the Aryan race and the Nazi uniform respectively, but also that Ernst Rohm, leader of the SS (correct me if I'm wrong), was homosexual.

[AgitoZ]

I don't have much to say on the topic, if at all, since you guys basically summed up my thoughts on it.

But, I'd just like to chime in with my support for more "very special episodes" of the DaizenshuuEX podcast. It's a nice change of pace.

[batistabus]

I definitely think there's a lack of distinction between homosexual and pedophile here. But anyway, pedophiles aren't anything new to Dragon Ball. How old is Bulma? What does Roshi do/want to do/say to her?