Base Vegetto: Potara multiplication

[Super Vegetto]

On p.63 in Daizenshuu 7 it describes the Potara fusion as being closer to multiplication rather than simple addition in the way it increases power. Supposedly, Vegetto's battle power is equivalent to Goku's battle power multiplied by Vegeta's. Also according to the introduction of the Super Exciting Guide's training section, all the information in it is based on data that was supervised by Toriyama, though we have no idea how extensive this supervision was.

So Potara is a form of multiplication, where the Fusion dance is addition.

And lets say Goku's power level is 25000, and Vegeta's is 20000.

Gogeta 25000+20000=45000.

Vegetto 25000x20000=500000000.

Is this right or wrong ? If it is right how did Gotenks ssj1 (Time Chamber) > Goku ssj3 ? And Fusion addition means Base Vegetto > Buuhan > Gogeta ssj1 ?

[Kaboom]

Note the key use of the word, "like." There's other sources that say Gotenks or Gogeta are several "times" more powerful than the individuals comprising them, and even directly in the manga itself Goku describes a Fusion's result as "way stronger than the sum of the parts." So obviously the Fusion Dance is more than simply A + B.

As for Vegetto, whether "GOKU X VEGETA" is meant to be taken literally or metaphorically, the underlying meaning is the same: Vegetto is WAAAAY stronger than everyone else.

[Fox666]

The problem with the "multiplication" is that the manga quite not show the Potara as being that extreme, or at least not how it would be using the Scouter units. Rou Kaioshin did not gain any strength from the witch, Kaioshin was still useless, and Vegetto transformed in Super Saiyan from the beggining.

Other than that, Goku also tought that he shouldn't fuse with Dende because he is not a warrior and that Mr. Satan may even make him weaker. And Goku made the analogy that with Satan he would jump from 1,000 to 1,001.

[Rocketman]

It only says "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta". It says absolutely nothing about the other fusions.

[Super Vegetto]

Note the key use of the word, "like." There's other sources that say Gotenks or Gogeta are several "times" more powerful than the individuals comprising them, and even directly in the manga itself Goku describes its result as "way stronger than the sum of the parts." So obviously the Fusion Dance is more than simply A + B.

As for Vegetto, whether "GOKU X VEGETA" is meant to be taken literally or metaphorically, the underlying meaning is the same: Vegetto is WAAAAY stronger than everyone else.

So Gotenks or Gogeta are several "times" more powerful than the individuals comprising them,,where is that stated ?,,,i know that Goku stated guys that teached him were pretty weak and after doing fusion they becomed fierce warrior,,so its a+b for fusion and that means Base Vegetto can take out Gogeta ssj3 without problems...

It only says "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta". It says absolutely nothing about the other fusions.

So you think Fusion is the same thing like Potara ?

The problem with the "multiplication" is that the manga quite not show the Potara as being that extreme, or at least not how it would be using the Scouter units. Rou Kaioshin did not gain anyngth strefrom the witch, Kaioshin was still useless, and Vegetto transformed in Super Saiyan from the beggining.

Other than that, Goku also tought that he shouldn't fuse with Dende because he is not a warrior and that Mr. Satan may even make him weaker. And Goku made the analogy that with Satan he would jump from 1,000 to 1,001.

Yes i know what you mean,,Base Vegetto toying with Buuhan is showed only in anime so if we go by manga it seams like Vegetto neads ssj to match Buuhan,,but only yust because daizenshuu says Potara is multipliaction means the filler from anime goes perfectly in manga,,but again who knows...

[Bussani]

On p.63 in Daizenshuu 7 it describes the Potara fusion as being closer to multiplication rather than simple addition in the way it increases power. Supposedly, Vegetto's battle power is equivalent to Goku's battle power multiplied by Vegeta's.

I feel like you're mixing up sources here. The stuff about Potara being more like multiplication than addition and Vegetto being "GOKU X VEGETA" comes from the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume. Daizenshuu 7's entry on Potara only says that the power after merging is greater than with fusion.

Fusion dance is addition.

As far as I know, that's never stated anywhere.

and even directly in the manga itself Goku describes a Fusion's result as "way stronger than the sum of the parts."

I know Viz put it that way, but Herms' translation is a little different, so I'm not sure if it's in the original. That said, everything Goku says about it does seem to hint that it isn't just addition.

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P7.1
Goku: “To top it off, it took me about 1 week to learn the art…”

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

So Gotenks or Gogeta are several "times" more powerful than the individuals comprising them,,where is that stated ?

I forget exactly what it was from, but some people were discussing it in another thread.

[Rocketman]

So you think Fusion is the same thing like Potara ?

I think Vegetto is Vegetto and every other fusion is a buttface.

[hleV]

I think Vegetto is Vegetto and every other fusion is a buttface.

This.

Only Vegetto was officially stated to be Goku x Vegeta and that's never contradicted. Other fusions (be it Metamorian or Potara) were apparently not even close to A x B. So either Vegetto got that much power because of the rivalry between Goku and Vegeta, Goku and Vegeta's power, or Vegetto isn't literally Goku x Vegeta (though still an overkill against anyone else in DB).

[Super Vegetto]

I feel like you're mixing up sources here. The stuff about Potara being more like multiplication than addition and Vegetto being "GOKU X VEGETA" comes from the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume. Daizenshuu 7's entry on Potara only says that the power after merging is greater than with fusion.

So Super Exiting Guide gives ssj multiplication and does that mean we shouldnt take seriously those numbers ?

So you think Fusion is the same thing like Potara ?

I think Vegetto is Vegetto and every other fusion is a buttface.

XD

[Bussani]

So Super Exiting Guide gives ssj multiplication[?]

The regular Super Saiyan multiplication has been given by various guides over the years, including Daizenshuu 7. The Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume was the first to give multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3.

and does that mean we shouldnt take seriously those numbers ?

Well, that's not what I was trying to say. It's up to you if you take things from guides and magazines seriously. I will say that Toriyama himself mentioned the fifty-times Super Saiyan multiplier at one point (although the quote is a little confusing), so you could say that one has a bit more weight behind it. But some people then say the fifty-times difference could only apply to Goku when he first transformed, so honestly, you'll never get everyone to agree on one interpretation of the facts.

[Super Vegetto]

So Super Exiting Guide gives ssj multiplication[?]

The regular Super Saiyan multiplication has been given by various guides over the years, including Daizenshuu 7. The Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume was the first to give multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3.

and does that mean we shouldnt take seriously those numbers ?

Well, that's not what I was trying to say. It's up to you if you take things from guides and magazines seriously. I will say that Toriyama himself mentioned the fifty-times Super Saiyan multiplier at one point (although the quote is a little confusing), so you could say that one has a bit more weight behind it. But some people then say the fifty-times difference could only apply to Goku when he first transformed, so honestly, you'll never get everyone to agree on one interpretation of the facts.

I see ,,ssj2 and ssj3 are from SEG but ssj1 was before it,,,i readed somewhere that AT planed to do ssj 10x but in the end it was 50x for some reason...

[Bussani]

i readed somewhere that AT planed to do ssj 10x but in the end it was 50x for some reason...

That's the confusing quote I mentioned. I think it's also from the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume.

"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

He says he drew it with the sense of the character being ten times greater than what he was before, but he doesn't say the multiplier of fifty times is wrong. If he had they probably wouldn't have printed it again in the very same guide, let alone new multipliers for the other forms as well.

[Super Vegetto]

i readed somewhere that AT planed to do ssj 10x but in the end it was 50x for some reason...

That's the confusing quote I mentioned. I think it's also from the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume.

"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

He says he drew it with the sense of the character being ten times greater than what he was before, but he doesn't say the multiplier of fifty times is wrong. If he had they probably wouldn't have printed it again in the very same guide, let alone new multipliers for the other forms as well.

I see,,,killing two birds with one stone xD,,tnx for informations...

[Fox666]

So Potara is a form of multiplication, where the Fusion dance is addition.

To be fair, the closest thing we have to an official source is a scan saying Gotenks is "many times" stronger than Trunks or Goten. Additionally in GT Perfect Files it says Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is "tens of times" stronger than a regular Super Saiyan 4.

Other than that, when they are explaining what the fusion is, Piccolo merging with Nail or Kami is mentioned. But I don't know to which extend it was meant that they have a similar result.

[Super Vegetto]

So Potara is a form of multiplication, where the Fusion dance is addition.

To be fair, the closest thing we have to an official source is a scan saying Gotenks is "many times" stronger than Trunks or Goten. Additionally in GT Perfect Files it says Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is "tens of times" stronger than a regular Super Saiyan 4.

Other than that, when they are explaining what the fusion is, Piccolo merging with Nail or Kami is mentioned. But I don't know to which extend it was meant that they have a similar result.

Well than it seams the end result of the fusion dance is what gives more power to fusion character,,Piccolo wasnt even close to Frieza in first form but after fusing with Nail who was 42,000 gived him more boost then he would get if you combine his power with Nails 42,000..Namek fusion is probably like potara because it last forever but boost is more like in regular fusion dance...

Namek fusion: gives boost even if characters are weak,,,but it lasts forever and the guy who whants decide in which body will stay.

Fusion dance: gives boost even if characters are weak (Goku sad the guys that showed him fusion are very weak but in fusion they become fierce warrior,,fusion end result is good if they do it without mistake and it lasts 30 min.

Potara: is more of multiplication so it gives more boost but price is the fusion stays forever,,,Old kai sad that Vegetto is stronger probably because of rivarly so in his words Gohan and Goku fusion wouldnt be strong as Vegetto or who knows...

[Kaboom]

Super Vegetto, in addition to working on your grammar, please stop double-posting. Even if you want to quote someone else after you've already posted, it's easy to edit your prior post to do so.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I believe that, for the Potara fusion to get the result "A x B = C", the 2 people that merge together must have some conections to each other.
For example, the Potara fusions we saw are these:

Old Kaioshin: A Kaioshin merged with a female witch. Kaioshins are Shin-jin, grenderless and powerful beings, while the witch was an Earthling-like female human with no fighting power. The result was an imperfect fusion that didn't give the result "A x B = C".

Kaioshin: A Kaioshin merged with his Shin-jin assistant. While both of them are the same race, they have different body type, and Kaioshin was much stronger and he was a god. If their battle powers were multiplied, they would be the 2nd strongest being in existance, the other being Vegetto. So, again, the result was an imperfect fusion that didn't give the result "A x B = C".

Gotan: While only hypothetical, Goku believed that merging with Mr. Satan wouldn't raise his power, or that it could even make him weaker. The reason could be that Goku was waaay stronger than Satan, they had different body types, and they were from a different race (Goku is a Saiyan, Satan is an Earthling). So, according to Goku's words, the result would be an imperfect fusion that wouldn't give the result "A x B = C".

Vegetto: Goku and Vegeta merged. Unlike in the previous cases, Goku and Vegeta share a lot of similar and opposite characteristics:
1) They are both Saiyans.
2) They are close in age.
3) They are close in power.
4) They belong in the top of the category of the strongest fighters in the universe.
5) They have similar body type.
6) Their personalities are completely opposite (examples: Goku shows mercy, Vegeta doesn't. Goku cares for the others, Vegeta doesn't (most of the times). Goku is pure, Vegeta isn't.)
7) They are rivals.

So, because of the above, they make a perfect Potara fusion, which gives the result "A x B = C".

[VegettoEX]

I really like that interpretation/breakdown. Good stuff!

[Kaboom]

So, the idea is that with Potara Fusion it's not required to follow the "similar power/build" rules of the Fusion Dance, but it's more effective if you do? Thus more similar beings will yield a stronger and more "perfect" Fusion. That's a very neat way of looking at it that I hadn't thought of before. Kudos.