Unpopular DB opinions

[SaiyanGod117]

Norihito Sumitomo is a better composer than Kikuchi.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Too bad this "Summito" doesnt work for Dragon Ball.

[Analytical Delusion]

In terms of filler, I'm not a fan of self-contained mini-arcs (stuff like Fake Namek, Garlic Jr., the afterlife tournament between the Cell and Buu arcs, or more recently in Super, the cloned Vegeta stuff presumably, though what is or isn't filler isn't clear cut) or padding to fights for the most part. I do really enjoy a couple of flavors though:

• Training Scenes - For a series built around fighting strong opponents, I think extending training scenes in some cases (preparation of everyone leading up to Nappa/Vegeta arriving or Goku in space en route to Namek), and filling in gaps in others (the timeskips before the 23rd TB and the first appearance of the androids for instance) serve several purposes. They definitely improve the payoff of a lot of the fights for me since there is more of an investment in/attachment to characters we've seen working their asses off, and improvements seem a lot more organic.

• Slice of LIfe - A lot of the downtime can be very humanizing and add to character depth, and in other instances given how out of touch some of the cast is with the rest of society, the comic relief can be fantastic. A lot of these episodes/scenes can really break up the tension and more often than not I feel they fit well. We're seeing a lot of these stories in Super, but going back to the original run, I really enjoyed the Gohan in high school/Saiyaman arc, and wish some of those plot points were expanded (I view the 25th TB with Goku seeing his son mostly grown up, and Gohan finally opening up to Videl as very rewarding).

In addition to the specific reasons I enjoy the training scenes/slice of life elements, both in my opinion help convey the passage of time. Most of the events in the series take place on one of a handful of days over several decades, and it's fulfilling to flesh the timeline out.

I don't know that my preferences are unpopular, but I do think my dislike for the self-contained mini arcs probably places me in the minority. It's hard for me to become invested in characters who are present only for a short time, especially when generally their backstories and personalities aren't particularly interesting, or when they won't be referenced later in the series. There are some positives, yes (including a focus on lesser-known characters, some elements of world-building), but I think the characterization/lack of lasting impact, as well as fight choreography that doesn't feel as inspired as adaptations of Toriyama's work.

For the record, this isn't an indictment of Toei's creativity for me - I feel they did a great job making fights in the movies look beautiful and nuanced, so when they have time to plan things out they do a great job. Since they're not working off a specific script and have time to plan on their own in Super presumably more than on a week-to-week basis, I feel a few fights have come out terrifically in the anime: Piccolo vs Frost, Goku and Trunks vs Zamasu and Black, Buu vs Basil, Gohan vs Lavender). The additions to Piccolo vs 17, Goku vs Cell, and Goku vs Majin Vegeta are all highly praised by the fandom, and I do wish the fights and a few others (Gohan vs Dabura, Gohan vs Super Buu, Goku vs Kid Buu) were longer in the manga, but I don't rate the final anime product as highly as do most. Some fights are unnecessarily extended as well, and the impact of power disparities is lost by dragging things out (everyone vs Nappa, the fight vs Freeza at times, Gohan vs the Cell Jrs, and Vegetto fighting Super Buu in his base).

[ABED]

It's hard for me to become invested in characters who are present only for a short time, especially when generally their backstories and personalities aren't particularly interesting

Different strokes for different folks, but self contained arcs don't preclude those stories and characters from being interesting. Sadly I do think it's often the case in DB, but I don't think that's inherent in those sorts of stories.

[Doctor.]

How does it fly in the face of everything that happens on Namek? And what's wrong with it happening off screen?

"A warrior with a pure heart, awakened by rage," both Goku and Kaio describe Super Saiyan like this and even Freeza says this is why Vegeta never managed to become one.

Vegeta becoming one and saying "Well, yeah, my heart is pure, pure evil that is" looks like Toriyama is just backpedaling.

[ABED]

How does it fly in the face of everything that happens on Namek? And what's wrong with it happening off screen?

"A warrior with a pure heart, awakened by rage," both Goku and Kaio describe Super Saiyan like this and even Freeza says this is why Vegeta never managed to become one.

Vegeta becoming one and saying "Well, yeah, my heart is pure, pure evil that is" looks like Toriyama is just backpedaling.

That was an assumption on their part. How would Goku know what qualifications it takes to turn Super Saiyan? And what sense does it make that you have to have a pure heart to unlock the transformation? It's not like the Super Saiyan God transformation where it's magic based. Vegeta didn't have the requisite rage on Namek. Toriyama didn't backpedal at all. Vegeta was peacocking and you seem to take this all at face value. Just because Vegeta claims he was pure evil doesn't make it so.

[Doctor.]

That was an assumption on their part.

More like the story telling you what a Super Saiyan is without explicitly stating it.

How would Goku know what qualifications it takes to turn Super Saiyan? And what sense does it make that you have to have a pure heart to unlock the transformation?

It would explain how a race of genocidal brutes never got it, which is precisely what Freeza says.

[Lord Beerus]

The whole point of the Namek/Freeza arc was: Don't be like Vegeta and you can become a SSJ. Then we later see that it was barbecue Vegeta was such an evil bastard that he could become a SSJ in the first place. Toriyama horribly backtracked on his intended symbolical narrative in the Freeza arc and practically handed Vegeta the Super Saiyan form just so that he wouldn't fall behind.

So, yeah. I stand by my (unpopular) opinion. Vegeta killed the mystique of Super Saiyan.

[ABED]

So what if he changed his mind? It worked storywise because in the Freeza arc he didn't have the requisite power or anger to unlock the transformation. I don't give a damn about the symbolism of the previous arc as I don't think it was that important overall to the story. Did Toriyama explicitly say that Goku became a Super Saiyan because he was a good guy? The point still stands that Goku is different from Vegeta. Even though Vegeta becomes a Super Saiyan, he's still a step behind Goku. He gets what he wanted and he's trounced in pretty quick fashion not long after he achieves what he always wanted. I don't think Vegeta killed the mystique. The cyborg arc destroys the mystique as the cyborgs make pretty quick work of Super Saiyans early on.

More like the story telling you what a Super Saiyan is without explicitly stating it.

That would be explicitly stating it. Plus if it's all about being a purehearted warrior and rage, why didn't he transform when Piccolo killed Kuririn? He was just as angry then.

It would explain how a race of genocidal brutes never got it, which is precisely what Freeza says.

None of them were as strong as Goku. Vegeta was the strongest of their race and he was a far cry from where Goku was in the Freeza arc.

[Lord Beerus]

The whole point of the Namek/Freeza arc was: Don't be like Vegeta and you can become a SSJ. Then we later see that it was because* Vegeta was such an evil bastard that he couldn't* become a SSJ in the first place. Toriyama horribly backtracked on his intended symbolical narrative in the Freeza arc and practically handed Vegeta the Super Saiyan form just so that he wouldn't fall behind.

So, yeah. I stand by my (unpopular) opinion. Vegeta killed the mystique of Super Saiyan.

*Edits made as I missed the window. Auto-spell fucked me over.

[ABED]

I don't think Super Saiyan's mystique came from any moral idea. Whatever mystique it had was due to it being new and unique. Vegeta achieving the transformation furthered his character beyond the simple power up so he didn't fall behind. He achieves his goal and in quick fashion learns that it wasn't the be all, end all.

And I never took it that it was because Vegeta was evil that he couldn't become a Super Saiyan at that time. Even assuming that's what Toriyama meant at first and later changed his mind, I prefer the change. Vegeta achieves nearly everything Goku does but he's always a step behind. It's only at the end does he realize why and he's able to let go of that animosity.

[DrakenballP]

I've always thought Raditz was one of the most fascinating and intriguing characters in the entire franchise, as well as Yamcha, and I'm very upset by the fact neither of them had any limelight in Dragon Ball Z or Super.

Raditz was very short-lived, but he was such an awesome character and I would have loved to seen growth between Raditz and Goku as siblings. Seeing Raditz do as Vegeta did would have made the series very interesting, and I'm wondering how things would have went for this new series if that were the case.

The same thing is with Yamcha. Yamcha was my favorite character in Dragon Ball, and my favorite in Dragon Ball Z until Vegeta came into the picture. I would have loved to see more growth from Yamcha rather than having him just be dead every 10 and a half seconds and be essentially useless in Super.

I would include Tien in this, but he's getting the love he deserves with the Tournament.

[ekrolo2]

So what if he changed his mind? It worked storywise because in the Freeza arc he didn't have the requisite power or anger to unlock the transformation. I don't give a damn about the symbolism of the previous arc as I don't think it was that important overall to the story. Did Toriyama explicitly say that Goku became a Super Saiyan because he was a good guy? The point still stands that Goku is different from Vegeta. Even though Vegeta becomes a Super Saiyan, he's still a step behind Goku. He gets what he wanted and he's trounced in pretty quick fashion not long after he achieves what he always wanted. I don't think Vegeta killed the mystique. The cyborg arc destroys the mystique as the cyborgs make pretty quick work of Super Saiyans early on.

17, 18 and 16 hurt the hell out of it but 19 and 20 had the energy absoprtion to at least justify how they could stand up to on and eventually over power them. Vegeta was the first blow since he does NOT have the right mind set to become one, he can attain the power but up until Trunks gets killed by Cell, he's a remorseless murderer who's just using the androids as practice for his eventual murder attempt against Goku. He has exactly the mind set that, regardless of power, would've killed any of the Saiyan's ability to get SS.

[ABED]

So what if he changed his mind? It worked storywise because in the Freeza arc he didn't have the requisite power or anger to unlock the transformation. I don't give a damn about the symbolism of the previous arc as I don't think it was that important overall to the story. Did Toriyama explicitly say that Goku became a Super Saiyan because he was a good guy? The point still stands that Goku is different from Vegeta. Even though Vegeta becomes a Super Saiyan, he's still a step behind Goku. He gets what he wanted and he's trounced in pretty quick fashion not long after he achieves what he always wanted. I don't think Vegeta killed the mystique. The cyborg arc destroys the mystique as the cyborgs make pretty quick work of Super Saiyans early on.

17, 18 and 16 hurt the hell out of it but 19 and 20 had the energy absoprtion to at least justify how they could stand up to on and eventually over power them. Vegeta was the first blow since he does NOT have the right mind set to become one, he can attain the power but up until Trunks gets killed by Cell, he's a remorseless murderer who's just using the androids as practice for his eventual murder attempt against Goku. He has exactly the mind set that, regardless of power, would've killed any of the Saiyan's ability to get SS.

I still don't see why a Saiyan's personality should have anything to do with their transformation. That would make the transformation more mystical instead of something physiological.

Raditz was very short-lived, but he was such an awesome character and I would have loved to seen growth between Raditz and Goku as siblings. Seeing Raditz do as Vegeta did would have made the series very interesting, and I'm wondering how things would have went for this new series if that were the case.

Maybe they could've used him more, but I like the idea that blood doesn't make you family.

[precita]

The same thing is with Yamcha. Yamcha was my favorite character in Dragon Ball, and my favorite in Dragon Ball Z until Vegeta came into the picture. I would have loved to see more growth from Yamcha rather than having him just be dead every 10 and a half seconds and be essentially useless in Super..

Prior to Super, Yamcha was never really treated badly in DBZ. The internet meme's don't exist in-universe and every time he lost or was killed it was treated as a dramatic or big moment.

Aside from Krillin's increased sceentime on Namek, Yamcha doesn't do any less fighting than the rest of the humans for all of DBZ.

[DrakenballP]

The same thing is with Yamcha. Yamcha was my favorite character in Dragon Ball, and my favorite in Dragon Ball Z until Vegeta came into the picture. I would have loved to see more growth from Yamcha rather than having him just be dead every 10 and a half seconds and be essentially useless in Super..

Prior to Super, Yamcha was never really treated badly in DBZ. The internet meme's don't exist in-universe and every time he lost or was killed it was treated as a dramatic or big moment.

Aside from Krillin's increased sceentime on Namek, Yamcha doesn't do any less fighting than the rest of the humans for all of DBZ.

Did you watch a different Dragon Ball Z than I did? All of Yamcha's deaths impacted me and made me sad, even my girlfriend who's unfamiliar with Yamcha and was just introduced to Dragon Ball Z a week ago, felt upset by his death in the Saiyan saga.

It doesn't deter from the fact he very much seemed to have little impact on the overall story and wasn't too useful, not to the level he should have been, and he was never put in the forefront whatsoever for any form of training, attention, and the guy never got anything he wanted in his life. It's depressing if you think about it.

[TheGodfather93]

Ultimate Gohan was stupid. My favourite versions of Gohan are Kid Gohan from the Namek arc and the Great Saiyaman.

Kid Gohan was a badass who was fighting an intergalactic tyrant and his cronies in space at an age where most kids were still learning how to wipe their own asses. Even when he was outmatched, he still gave it his all, showing great character growth from how he was in the Saiyan arc. Great Saiyaman was just hilarious, and it was nice seeing Gohan do something noble and heroic while still having fun and being his goofy self. It's also a wonder the kid didn't get PTSD considering the kind of childhood he had.

Ultimate Gohan, meanwhile, was a chump. He was given a huge amount of power even though he didn't really earn it, then got cocky when fighting Boo and let himself and Gotenks get absorbed. I also found the stoic hardass persona he adopted boring, and a stark contrast to how he usually is.

I can understand why Ultimate Gohan is so popular, but to me he was by far the worst version of Gohan. Hopefully Super does the character justice, because he was handled pretty poorly in Z.

[mallaard]

Ultimate Gohan was stupid. My favourite versions of Gohan are Kid Gohan from the Namek arc and the Great Saiyaman.

Kid Gohan was a badass who was fighting an intergalactic tyrant and his cronies in space at an age where most kids were still learning how to wipe their own asses. Even when he was outmatched, he still gave it his all, showing great character growth from how he was in the Saiyan arc. Great Saiyaman was just hilarious, and it was nice seeing Gohan do something noble and heroic while still having fun and being his goofy self. It's also a wonder the kid didn't get PTSD considering the kind of childhood he had.

Ultimate Gohan, meanwhile, was a chump. He was given a huge amount of power even though he didn't really earn it, then got cocky when fighting Boo and let himself and Gotenks get absorbed. I also found the stoic hardass persona he adopted boring, and a stark contrast to how he usually is.

I can understand why Ultimate Gohan is so popular, but to me he was by far the worst version of Gohan. Hopefully Super does the character justice, because he was handled pretty poorly in Z.

You have a point about Mystic Gohan. At first I was inclined to believe he got foolish because he hadn't really earned the power he'd been given, but the exact same thing happened when he was a kid with the Elder Namekian, and he seemed a lot more focused and eager then. I guess the big difference is that back then he was full of childhood angst and stuff, versus the 7 years of teenage dormancy of the later scenario. I always thought Gohan was the most realistic character in the series, along with Krillin. Most of us aren't going to be training-crazy battle maniacs, even with super powers. We'd get lazy or distracted and let our abilities slip. The only thing that really frustrates me about Gohan is I have no idea what he's supposed to be a scholar of. You don't go to college to be smart, you go to major in something specific. He just seems to major in reading books, far as I can tell.

[Gog]

I really dislike how the characters in Dragon Ball keep changing colors.

[Ki Breaker]

Not digging this design at all


Much bigger fan of the slimmed down one