Unpopular DB opinions

[Cure Dragon 255]

. While the dub doesn't rewrite their characters Ted Woolsey-style, at the very least it gives the impression that they have more depth as characters, because they talk more like normal human beings do. I can't quite explain it.

Because Japanese people don't talk like normal human beings? What does that even mean?

I think language barriers can lose some nuance but like Abed said you can still understand through subtitles that Freeza has a faux air of politeness, that Goku is a bumpkin with no time for proper grammar or manners, etc

It means subtitles are a literal translation and don't take into account the way someone would normally talk in English. Otherwise they'd be dubtitles. I'm sure it does sound natural if you understand the language, but I don't, so it doesn't to me. I don't know how or why the hell you decided to spin what I said into some kind of racist statement against Japanese people.

The reason dubs are so valuable is for reasons like this. Even with subtitles, there are times where you just can't fathom what's written onscreen coming out of a native English-speaker's mouth. The language and cultural barriers between Japanese and English are just too damn strong for there not be some awkwardness.

I want to make clear that I didnt intend to be harsh on you. I LOVE dubs, and dubs too can indeed carefully convey character just like I said subs can. And I even love that you like Kai dubbing but prefer the Faulconer score. That's a very great opinion.

[DefinitiveDubs]

No you are not understanding that Subtitles if done properly can also convey the tone and spreaking style of the character. You are right in that Japanese only has politeness levels and they all mean the same in english but these can indeed be properly conveyed via careful translation. Like both Simmons and Clyde Mandelin are careful to ensure Goku's hick speech is kept in actual understandable english. In fact I would say that ITS THE ENGLISH DUB that shaves these unique traits. In the English dub you dont get any sort of IDEA that Goku is suppose to be a hick kinda guy. He speaks the exact same as EVERYONE ELSE.

Maybe they can convey tone and speaking style correctly, which at least addresses the problem I mentioned of personality quirks not translating over, but things like idioms, phrases, and all the things GhostEmperorX mentioned...how do you write for those without them not even being subtitles anymore? There's no way to win. I'm sure with tons of time and thought made by super passionate fans, you could come up with something...but that's not the kind of thing you'd find on any official release, such as the blue bricks.

. I don't know how or why the hell you decided to spin what I said into some kind of racist statement against Japanese people.
.

, at the very least it gives the impression that they have more depth as characters, because they talk more like normal human beings do

Yeah, it's a mystery

What the fuck are you talking about? How do you get that out of what I said? I was talking about the English-translated subtitles found on official releases, not the actual Japanese-written dialogue and dialect that I don't understand in a way to even judge it. Do you find racism, or do you look for it?

[MasenkoHA]

Reading the Nathan Johnson interview posted on Derek Padula's site, it seems to imply that it was a result of the company being acquired by Navarre which brought the whole music replacement thing to a halt (financial concerns)


.

I'm sure that played a part a part but even before being acquired by Navarre, Funimation was pretty much ditching the practice of producing original music. I think in the same interview Nathan Johnson mentioned be was contacted to possibly do replacement music for Detective Conan/Case Closed before Funimation changed their mind so I dunno maybe the Navarre purchase did put the kibosh on any potential future replacement scores that Watson might have ordered.

[Cure Dragon 255]

No you are not understanding that Subtitles if done properly can also convey the tone and spreaking style of the character. You are right in that Japanese only has politeness levels and they all mean the same in english but these can indeed be properly conveyed via careful translation. Like both Simmons and Clyde Mandelin are careful to ensure Goku's hick speech is kept in actual understandable english. In fact I would say that ITS THE ENGLISH DUB that shaves these unique traits. In the English dub you dont get any sort of IDEA that Goku is suppose to be a hick kinda guy. He speaks the exact same as EVERYONE ELSE.

Maybe they can convey tone and speaking style correctly, which at least addresses the problem I mentioned of personality quirks not translating over, but things like idioms, phrases, and all the things GhostEmperorX mentioned...how do you write for those without them not even being subtitles anymore? There's no way to win. I'm sure with tons of time and thought made by super passionate fans, you could come up with something...but that's not the kind of thing you'd find on any official release, such as the blue bricks.

. I don't know how or why the hell you decided to spin what I said into some kind of racist statement against Japanese people.
.

, at the very least it gives the impression that they have more depth as characters, because they talk more like normal human beings do

Yeah, it's a mystery

What the fuck are you talking about? How do you get that out of what I said? I was talking about the English-translated subtitles found on official releases, not the actual Japanese-written dialogue and dialect that I don't understand in a way to even judge it. Do you find racism, or do you look for it?

I want to be fair and not strongarm you into changing your opinion but this isnt an opinion, its stating something that isnt fact as such. Also you are not using dubtitles correctly. Dubtitles are just subs that are the exact same as the dub not just "Liberal sub". And yeah I get some literally translated catchphrases and so on REALLY dont come out great at all. (Like "Weasel's last fart" and so on.) But you are not getting that subs ALSO shouldnt just be Google Translate tier literal translations. Like just put the clunkiest literal translation ever and that's it that's what a sub is. You need to take account of the intent of the author and keep the details they intended. Like Goku is a hick, he speaks like a hick and Gohan speaks in a way more polite way that's why he calls Piccolo "Mr Piccolo". Or even that you cant just put everything as literal when in Japanese even a simple no/yes question should NOT just be translated literally.

Why “Hai” Doesn’t Always Mean “Yes” in Japanese


https://legendsoflocalization.com/why-h ... -japanese/

[DefinitiveDubs]

I want to be fair and not strongarm you into changing your opinion but this isnt an opinion, its stating something that isnt fact as such. Also you are not using dubtitles correctly. Dubtitles are just subs that are the exact same as the dub not just "Liberal sub". And yeah I get some literally translated catchphrases and so on REALLY dont come out great at all. (Like "Weasel's last fart" and so on.) But you are not getting that subs ALSO shouldnt just be Google Translate tier literal translations. Like just put the clunkiest literal translation ever and that's it that's what a sub is. You need to take account of the intent of the author and keep the details they intended. Like Goku is a hick, he speaks like a hick and Gohan speaks in a way more polite way that's why he calls Piccolo "Mr Piccolo". Or even that you cant just put everything as literal when in Japanese even a simple no/yes question should NOT just be translated literally.

Why “Hai” Doesn’t Always Mean “Yes” in Japanese


https://legendsoflocalization.com/why-h ... -japanese/

Well, my original stated opinion was I don't like officially subtitled Dragon Ball. It comes off as really awkward and hard to watch for me compared to watching it dubbed. That was my opinion, but that post was a while ago. What we're talking about now is whether subtitled Dragon Ball could not be awkward and hard to watch for me, and yeah, I'm making a statement that I sincerely don't see that happening. Like, is there some extremely well-made obscure fansub I don't know about that addresses my issues? Because the officially released subtitles aren't like what you describe.

[GhostEmperorX]

Well, my original stated opinion was I don't like officially subtitled Dragon Ball. It comes off as really awkward and hard to watch for me compared to watching it dubbed. That was my opinion, but that post was a while ago. What we're talking about now is whether subtitled Dragon Ball could not be awkward and hard to watch for me, and yeah, I'm making a statement that I sincerely don't see that happening. Like, is there some extremely well-made obscure fansub I don't know about that addresses my issues? Because the officially released subtitles aren't like what you describe.

This definitely makes sense, there's no doubt a fair share of moments like that in the subtitles of one Steve Simmons, where it feels too direct and not flexible enough (not to mention out of character for those it's trying to translate). Plus there's some misses here & there, like in Episode 118 where "harm" was mistaken for "changing clothes" because of a similar sound.
But it's 291 episodes (and more counting other series + movies), and when only one guy is working on it, it's a struggle (although I assume he was being paid to do official subs).

[Cure Dragon 255]

I want to be fair and not strongarm you into changing your opinion but this isnt an opinion, its stating something that isnt fact as such. Also you are not using dubtitles correctly. Dubtitles are just subs that are the exact same as the dub not just "Liberal sub". And yeah I get some literally translated catchphrases and so on REALLY dont come out great at all. (Like "Weasel's last fart" and so on.) But you are not getting that subs ALSO shouldnt just be Google Translate tier literal translations. Like just put the clunkiest literal translation ever and that's it that's what a sub is. You need to take account of the intent of the author and keep the details they intended. Like Goku is a hick, he speaks like a hick and Gohan speaks in a way more polite way that's why he calls Piccolo "Mr Piccolo". Or even that you cant just put everything as literal when in Japanese even a simple no/yes question should NOT just be translated literally.

Why “Hai” Doesn’t Always Mean “Yes” in Japanese


https://legendsoflocalization.com/why-h ... -japanese/

Well, my original stated opinion was I don't like officially subtitled Dragon Ball. It comes off as really awkward and hard to watch for me compared to watching it dubbed. That was my opinion, but that post was a while ago. What we're talking about now is whether subtitled Dragon Ball could not be awkward and hard to watch for me, and yeah, I'm making a statement that I sincerely don't see that happening. Like, is there some extremely well-made obscure fansub I don't know about that addresses my issues? Because the officially released subtitles aren't like what you describe.

Ok this is more like it, objectively assesing things. This post is great and I am sorry if I antagonized you that was not my intent.

[DefinitiveDubs]

Ok this is more like it, objectively assesing things. This post is great and I am sorry if I antagonized you that was not my intent.

I never thought you were. It's no big deal.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I have a controversial opinion. I no longer mind people liking Bruce Faulconer or any sort of replacement score. And I dont mind censorship, just MAKE SURE you make an uncut release with the original flavor as well.

[JulieYBM]

Film and television writers don't write dialogue like how people speak. Nobody does. The dialogue is always stylized in one way or another, and it never matches the more fractured way that people speak in.

[GhostEmperorX]

I have a controversial opinion. I no longer mind people liking Bruce Faulconer or any sort of replacement score.

Just some 0.02, but I'm not sure this should have been all controversial, even if the previously established fanbase didn't like it when it came out. Since, well, the cat's out of the bag and if people out there genuinely have a preference for it, then it's their cup of tea.
(Of course, the real issue is something that goes beyond any of that in time and scope.)

[Cure Dragon 255]

I have a controversial opinion. I no longer mind people liking Bruce Faulconer or any sort of replacement score.

Just some 0.02, but I'm not sure this should have been all controversial, even if the previously established fanbase didn't like it when it came out. Since, well, the cat's out of the bag and if people out there genuinely have a preference for it, then it's their cup of tea.
(Of course, the real issue is something that goes beyond any of that in time and scope.)

Ok you are right. Then I just will say Traditional Television is still very important even in this era and I am glad Toei thinks so too because they said they plan for Daima to go there too.

[MasenkoHA]

I have a controversial opinion. I no longer mind people liking Bruce Faulconer or any sort of replacement score. And I dont mind censorship, just MAKE SURE you make an uncut release with the original flavor as well.

I don't think the first one is a controversial opinion.

There is a difference between not liking something and caring if someone else likes it. For all the accusations that get thrown around I've never seen anyone care that someone else likes the Faulconer Productions score


I hate the Faulconer music =/= you should hate it too

[Majin Buu]

It means subtitles are a literal translation and don't take into account the way someone would normally talk in English.

For me, that's not the point of subtitles. What subtitles need to do is make sense to an English reader because you're reading them. Tailoring subs to how English people talk is missing the point since you're not listening to English people talk in the first place.

Otherwise they'd be dubtitles.

I personally don't like dubtitles because whether or not they're useful depends on how accurate the dub script is to the original Japanese script, so I'd rather subs just work directly off of that than rely on the dub.

The reason dubs are so valuable is for reasons like this. Even with subtitles, there are times where you just can't fathom what's written onscreen coming out of a native English-speaker's mouth. The language and cultural barriers between Japanese and English are just too damn strong for there not be some awkwardness.

Again, you're making this out to be a bigger issue than it is. Though that gets to my next point:

Well, my original stated opinion was I don't like officially subtitled Dragon Ball. It comes off as really awkward and hard to watch for me compared to watching it dubbed. That was my opinion, but that post was a while ago. What we're talking about now is whether subtitled Dragon Ball could not be awkward and hard to watch for me, and yeah, I'm making a statement that I sincerely don't see that happening. Like, is there some extremely well-made obscure fansub I don't know about that addresses my issues? Because the officially released subtitles aren't like what you describe.

What I personally took issue with in your initial post was statements like this:

Part of the problem with listening to original voice tracks for anime is if you're not a weeb and don't know Japanese, the characters' personalities are really hard to read.

You presented what is your own subjective issues with subtitles like they were objective facts. I think if you had worded this in a way that made it clearer that this is just your own personal preference and not a statement of fact- because this isn't a fact, not everyone has these issues with subs- even with no knowledge of the language, you wouldn't have received as much pushback as you did. "Part of my problem with" vs. "Part of the problem with".

Let people have unpopular opinions without blasting them with reasons why they shouldn't have it.

Expecting no pushback in a thread where the point is to state unpopular opinions is a bit unrealistic.

[Zephyr]

Let people have unpopular opinions without blasting them with reasons why they shouldn't have it.

Expecting no pushback in a thread where the point is to state unpopular opinions is a bit unrealistic.

More than that, this is a forum. An "Unpopular Opinions" thread on a forum ought to motivate discussion, not just be a dumping ground for people to drop hot takes that aren't allowed to be engaged with. If you don't want to start a conversation, don't make a post that's going to start one. Or, if you don't want to engage in the conversation that your post starts, then, like, don't bother responding to the responses?

[DefinitiveDubs]

It means subtitles are a literal translation and don't take into account the way someone would normally talk in English.

For me, that's not the point of subtitles. What subtitles need to do is make sense to an English reader because you're reading them. Tailoring subs to how English people talk is missing the point since you're not listening to English people talk in the first place.

But reading subs with anime, if you've been doing it for a while, creates an effect where you start to merge the on-screen dialogue with the spoken dialogue in your mind as you're watching. At least for me. And that's where the awkwardness comes from; I'm not just reading them, I'm immersed enough where I'm imagining the Japanese voices saying what's written onscreen in English. It's similar to how people read novels where they imagine characters in their minds. I thought this was a more common thing people did. Because yeah it's read, but dialogue in novels is also meant to be read and it still sounds more natural than the overly direct subs you find with DBZ.

You presented what is your own subjective issues with subtitles like they were objective facts. I think if you had worded this in a way that made it clearer that this is just your own personal preference and not a statement of fact- because this isn't a fact, not everyone has these issues with subs- even with no knowledge of the language, you wouldn't have received as much pushback as you did. "Part of my problem with" vs. "Part of the problem with".

And yet I'm also not the only person who has this problem.

Expecting no pushback in a thread where the point is to state unpopular opinions is a bit unrealistic.

Ok, so it actually doesn't have anything to do with me stating opinions as fact, because now you're implying you would've pushed back regardless. Expecting people to post unpopular opinions if they expect to receive pushback is even more unrealistic. The whole point of this thread, I would assume, is to be a safe space.

[GhostEmperorX]

For me, that's not the point of subtitles. What subtitles need to do is make sense to an English reader because you're reading them. Tailoring subs to how English people talk is missing the point since you're not listening to English people talk in the first place.

There's probably a balance to be struck between that, accuracy, and making it fit the personality of the characters speaking. Many ways to say one thing, character A says something X way, character B says something Y way, etc.
I think that's what he meant, suitable paraphrasing.

Ok, so it actually doesn't have anything to do with me stating opinions as fact, because now you're implying you would've pushed back regardless. Expecting people to post unpopular opinions if they expect to receive pushback is even more unrealistic. The whole point of this thread, I would assume, is to be a safe space.

It was initially the portion of the statement where a subjective criticism (whether held by one or by many) was framed as something of a "rule" that the problem arose from.
Regarding the thread, it does also feature discourse centered around these opinions, rather than posting then moving on to the next one. It's not necessarily to say that said opinions are wrong and shouldn't be had by anyone.

[Majin Buu]

But reading subs with anime, if you've been doing it for a while, creates an effect where you start to merge the on-screen dialogue with the spoken dialogue in your mind as you're watching. At least for me. And that's where the awkwardness comes from; I'm not just reading them, I'm immersed enough where I'm imagining the Japanese voices saying what's written onscreen in English. It's similar to how people read novels where they imagine characters in their minds. I thought this was a more common thing people did. Because yeah it's read, but dialogue in novels is also meant to be read and it still sounds more natural than the overly direct subs you find with DBZ.

This goes back to what I said previously: This is an issue you personally have with subs rather than an inherent problem with subs.

The actual inherent problems with subs are issues that you make out to be bigger issues than they are, and even then, those issues can be mitigated by making an effort to engage with the language itself. You write off "weebs" and people who know Japanese as exceptions, but there's many people here who like Japanese Dragon Ball, myself included, that started watching it with zero knowledge of the Japanese language. For me personally, watching Dragon Ball in Japanese actually inspired me to start learning the language itself (and I'm nowhere near fluent BTW).

And yet I'm also not the only person who has this problem.

True, but you're the one who made the initial argument people are responding to so you're the one being put on the spot. Plus other people who present their opinions like this are typically called out for it when they do it.

Ok, so it actually doesn't have anything to do with me stating opinions as fact, because now you're implying you would've pushed back regardless.

What I was getting at is that you would have received pushback from others regardless due to the nature of your statement, just not as much.

But since you want to make it about me, the way you presented your perspective like it was objective fact rubbed me the wrong way enough to want to respond. I wouldn't have bothered otherwise.

The whole point of this thread, I would assume, is to be a safe space.

Your use of the term "safe space" is telling.

You simply have the wrong impression of what this thread is about if your expectation is that no one is allowed to disagree with anyone who says anything in here. Like Zephyr said, if you're not looking to engage with people that disagree with you, don't post in the thread.

[DefinitiveDubs]

What I was getting at is that you would have received pushback from others regardless due to the nature of your statement, just not as much.

But since you want to make it about me, the way you presented your perspective like it was objective fact rubbed me the wrong way enough to want to respond. I wouldn't have bothered otherwise.

Subjectivity is implied.

If, in some other thread, someone had said "the funimation dub is bad", in those exact words, you just assume it's an opinion and roll on. You don't get onto anyone else's case for statements like that. Why am I the one specifically getting in trouble for not putting the words "in my opinion" on everything I say? It's because I said something controversial. If I said something a large portion of the forum agreed with, even if it was worded "like it was objective fact" it wouldn't be a problem. But because I said something unpopular, suddenly it becomes an issue.

[PurestEvil]

Film and television writers don't write dialogue like how people speak. Nobody does. The dialogue is always stylized in one way or another, and it never matches the more fractured way that people speak in.

To add on to this, the characters of DB (and most other shonen manga) cuss left and right and say extremely weird phrases never used in IRL discourse. You would NEVER hear anyone on the streets of Osaka say “Kisama!” or “Bakana…”, unless they’re otaku themselves.
I did have an epiphany a few years ago that people IRL don’t really talk as seamlessly in casual conversation as film characters. The director can command the best performance from actors, but real humans are still imperfect.