Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

[Enbi]

Whenever he's incorrect, he's been contradicted. We can't assume that just because one character does something once, they'll do it again. For example, Goku 'lied' about not being able to beat Fat Boo (technically, his reason wasn't because he was weaker, but because of Boo's chi being a lie or whatever, but let's forget that for now). Can I assume that he also lied about being able to finish off Kid Boo given one minute to gather chi just because he lied before? Can I assume that he lied about not being able to stand a chance against Super/Evil Boo as well? Of course not.

[Saiga]

Even with only a 10x gap it still doesn't work.

Because everyone else would have to be stronger than base Vegeta to make up the difference.

[Bussani]

Anyway, Gero was right about 19 being able to manage SSjin Goku

Really? Despite saying that, he looks pretty surprised and concerned when the fight starts and Goku immediately begins pummelling #19. He even goes on to say this:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.6
No.20: “…Kuh…! Th-this power up greatly exceeds my estimated data…Th-this is bad. Like this, No.19 will run out of energy before he steals any power…”

I can see this either way, I guess. If you want to take what Gero said as fact then perhaps a lower multiplier might be necessary, but I'm not going to say something like, "He was never contradicted, therefore we must take what he said as a fact." I mean, I can understand why someone might feel that way, but I don't think it's a rule you should expect everyone to follow.

Even with only a 10x gap it still doesn't work.

Because everyone else would have to be stronger than base Vegeta to make up the difference.

I think they just mean that he'd be able to get close enough to last against Vegeta long enough to absorb more of his energy, although how close he'd have to be, how far he was from Vegeta to begin with, and how much he'd powered up from absorbing Vegeta's previous attack all puts it sort of up in the air. Besides that, I doubt Vegeta would give him a chance to absorb any more of his ki, so even if Gero was right and everything was in his favor, I still think he was being highly optimistic about his chances.

[Rocketman]

The Universe glitched. Kaioken vanished and Super Saiyan became x10.

[Enbi]

No. 20 wasn't really wrong about No. 19. To me, that quote makes it clear he was riding on energy absorption the whole time, and when it actually happened, 19 got the upper hand.

[Saiga]

Gero flat out states that he estimated wrong, what more do you want?

[Bussani]

No. 20 wasn't really wrong about No. 19. To me, that quote makes it clear he was riding on energy absorption the whole time, and when it actually happened, 19 got the upper hand.

I dunno...maybe. I think Goku's virus had as much to do with #19 getting the upper hand. In fact, after his Kamehameha gets absorbed and his ki falls, everyone asks if his ki had been drained that much already; Piccolo replies that it isn't that, since Goku hadn't even been grabbed yet. That to me says that having his Kamehameha absorbed shouldn't have made his ki fall that dramatically, obviously hinting that it's the heart virus that was weakening him. If he hadn't been sick, would #19 really have been able to handle him, even with an absorbed Kamehameha?

Even ignoring that, the "!!" face Gero makes as soon as the fight begins and Goku starts kicking #19's ass makes it feel like he'd underestimated him to me.

Gero flat out states that he estimated wrong, what more do you want?

They could be taking that as Gero just reiterating what he'd said earlier about Super Saiyan surpassing his calculations, rather than him saying it had surpassed the estimation he just made. Taking everything into account, though, I do think Gero was overestimating #19's chances.

[Enbi]

Gero flat out states that he estimated wrong, what more do you want?

That's clearly referring to his prediction of Goku's improvements after the Saiyan battle. The quote says "estimated data." The power that he scans from Goku during the fight is not "estimated data."

Taking everything into account, though, I do think Gero was overestimating #19's chances

Could be the case, although it doesn't have to mean Gero read Goku's power incorrectly. I don't think he realized what Goku could do with the kind of advantage he had.

Should be noted, though, that he only ever refers to the estimated data (last I checked) whenever referring to Goku surpassing his expectations.

[Hitiro]

Should be noted, though, that he only ever refers to the estimated data (last I checked) whenever referring to Goku surpassing his expectations.

Doesn't he only say this after Goku had transformed though? In that case Goku might have indeed been as powerful as the estimated data and Goku only surpassed his expectations because he was a SSJ. So:

Goku == Estimated data.

SSJ Goku > Estimated data.

[Bussani]

Should be noted, though, that he only ever refers to the estimated data (last I checked) whenever referring to Goku surpassing his expectations.

Doesn't he only say this after Goku had transformed though?

Yes, but what does it have to do with the discussion above?

[freezamite]

Toriyama confirms in this interview that the Super Saiyan gives a x50 increase.

What this interview say is that Toriyama intended to give the original SSJ a 10x bump over Goku's base state, and that the x50 multiplier is a misinterpretation of the manga.
Of course, x50 doesn't make any sense, because not only Goku wasn't far stronger than Freezer when he used his full power (they were equal in strength) and this was in a scenario where Freeza was badly injured by the Genkidama, at aproximately 1/3 of the power he should have normally.

Not as "clear" as you think. Never is anyone said to become stronger JUST by improving their use of Super Saiyan. We see Gohan doing that, but then we also see them training a lot. If their overall power increased from their training, then both their base forms and Super Saiyan would increase roughly proportionately to each other.

Before Training
Goku: 10
Super Saiyan: 500

After Training
Goku: 50
Super Saiyan: 2500

Nope, once you become SSJ is prety well said that your power in base state can't increase any more. This is why Vegeta could transform himself into a SSJ, and what we see during the manga. Of course there are other things that can be trained, like new techniques, but not the power any more.

Furthermore, the only objective that Goku has when training in the spirit and time room is to control the SSJ form, this is why he can achieve a much stronger form than Vegeta when he trained far less than his rival.

How about this theory : SSJ Base is x 50 normal state base.
As you train to achieve FPSSJ, your SSJ increase becomes greater : x65,x75, and so on... Until you reach x100 which is SSJ2.
That doesn't work with SSJ3 though... :/

I agree with your idea, but not with the multipliers. SSJ Base in Goku is a 10x multiplier. But this is for Goku, who has the best ki management of the whole series before the transformation. In Vegeta's case I would say it is a 2-3 multiplier at the begining, no more than that for sure.

Wouldn't that make the jump from (Full Power) Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2 even less impressive than it already is?

Jump from SSJ to SSJ2 is not a great deal. In fact, SSJ2 is not a new transformation but an improvement of the SSJ form. The fact that Cell, that was a SSJ, wasn't killed in a single punch by Gohan SSJ2 (and Gohan SSJ2 wasn't a weak SSJ2 at all, it had nearly the same power than Majin Vegeta) proves that the difference between a SSJ and a SSJ2 isn't that big.
The same about the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3, that is even smaller. That's because those forms are really close to push the body to the limit, as is proven by the fact that Goku can't resists its SSJ3 form while being alive.

And it makes zero sense.

Sorry? x50 is the one that doen't make any sense, x10 is perfectly logic!!!

That makes no sense at the time he wrote it because Kaioken x20 multiplies the battle power by 20. SSJ would be inferior if it was 10x especially since Kaioken x20 only barely hurt Freeza.

Yes it makes sense. Kaioh ken x20 multiplied power by 20 and barely hurt Freeza when he was at perfect condition. SSJ which is (in Goku's case) a 10x multiplier hurt him more because Freeza was badly injured by the Genkidama.
This is the same as if I say that Yajirobee was stronger than Goku when the fight against Vegeta only because he managed to hurt the sayan when Goku needed Kaioh ken to do so. Of course, Yajirobee wasn't stronger than Goku, he could hurt the sayan thank's to him being so weakened because of the injuries during the fight.

This is a common rule in DB, the more injured you are, the less strength you have!

[Hitiro]

Doesn't he only say this after Goku had transformed though?

Yes, but what does it have to do with the discussion above?

After reading through the posts for some reason I just got the impression that people were under the assumption the increase in Goku's strength in comparison to Dr. Gero's estimated data was only in reference to his base strength, not the actual transformation itself. I don't know why.

What this interview say is that Toriyama intended to give the original SSJ a 10x bump over Goku's base state, and that the x50 multiplier is a misinterpretation of the manga.
Of course, x50 doesn't make any sense, because not only Goku wasn't far stronger than Freezer when he used his full power (they were equal in strength) and this was in a scenario where Freeza was badly injured by the Genkidama, at aproximately 1/3 of the power he should have normally.

Toriyama didn't think it was that much of an increase but he wasn't taking into account that Kaioken x20 was only putting Goku at 50% of Freeza's full power. So he intended to give it a x10 increase but later realised that x50 is more acceptable due to it needing to be, at least, 2 times stronger than Goku's Kaioken. Goku was still stronger than Freeza during this fight but we don't know if through injuries if the gap was smaller. You say Freeza was badly injured, are you forgetting Goku was beaten to the point that he could barely stand by Freeza? Gohan, Kuririn and Piccolo all noted he had little energy left even after the Kaioken x20 with a Kamehameha.

Nope, once you become SSJ is prety well said that your power in base state can't increase any more. This is why Vegeta could transform himself into a SSJ, and what we see during the manga. Of course there are other things that can be trained, like new techniques, but not the power any more.

Never is it said that your power in base can't increase any more. If that were true then that means Goten and Trunks base strength has already reached its maximum. If that's the case then why does Piccolo say in the RoSaT that Gotenks has become stronger while Gotenks is still in his base form?

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

Furthermore, the only objective that Goku has when training in the spirit and time room is to control the SSJ form, this is why he can achieve a much stronger form than Vegeta when he trained far less than his rival.

The reason why Goku was stronger than Vegeta was because he was forced to increase his power in order to keep up with Gohan's insane potential. After Gohan got SSJ and Goku could finally spar with him without holding back Gohan's power began to exceed Goku's. Because of this Goku's power also increased because it was trying to keep up with Gohan's through Zenkai's and just a Saiyan's innate ability to get stronger from fighting against a stronger opponent.

I agree with your idea, but not with the multipliers. SSJ Base in Goku is a 10x multiplier. But this is for Goku, who has the best ki management of the whole series before the transformation. In Vegeta's case I would say it is a 2-3 multiplier at the begining, no more than that for sure.

If this were the case Gohan would still be stronger than Vegeta because as far as we know Vegeta never became a "FPSSJ" and if we're saying that ki management is the ki to a higher multiplier for SSJ then Gohan should have a higher multiplier than his father seeing as Gohan was stronger than Goku in the Cell Games. So how does he go from being the most powerful Saiyan to one of the weakest? Surely he would have kept his ki management the same as it would be like riding a bike. Otherwise people who slack off will lose the ability to fly or do ki blasts.

Jump from SSJ to SSJ2 is not a great deal. In fact, SSJ2 is not a new transformation but an improvement of the SSJ form. The fact that Cell, that was a SSJ, wasn't killed in a single punch by Gohan SSJ2 (and Gohan SSJ2 wasn't a weak SSJ2 at all, it had nearly the same power than Majin Vegeta) proves that the difference between a SSJ and a SSJ2 isn't that big.
The same about the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3, that is even smaller. That's because those forms are really close to push the body to the limit, as is proven by the fact that Goku can't resists its SSJ3 form while being alive.

SSJ2 is a larger increase than you believe. Gohan was only toying with Cell and even after he lost half his Ki he still released a Kamehameha to combat Cell's, overpowering him while he was distracted. And to say SSJ2 and SSJ3 have a smaller difference between them is just silly. If that were the case then why is it SSJ3 Goku, who was holding back, annihilates Fat Boo and Majin Vegeta, who was trying, doesn't?

Yes it makes sense. Kaioh ken x20 multiplied power by 20 and barely hurt Freeza when he was at perfect condition. SSJ which is (in Goku's case) a 10x multiplier hurt him more because Freeza was badly injured by the Genkidama.
This is the same as if I say that Yajirobee was stronger than Goku when the fight against Vegeta only because he managed to hurt the sayan when Goku needed Kaioh ken to do so. Of course, Yajirobee wasn't stronger than Goku, he could hurt the sayan thank's to him being so weakened because of the injuries during the fight.

This is a common rule in DB, the more injured you are, the less strength you have!

As I stated a little further up Goku was also injured, more so than Freeza. If a more injured Goku is beating a slightly injured Freeza means that Goku is fighting him with a form that only increases his base power 10x then there is something seriously wrong with your math my friend.

[yakonojo]

quote thingy (don't know how to do it yet :p)
"once you become SSJ is prety well said that your power in base state can't increase any more. This is why Vegeta could transform himself into a SSJ, and what we see during the manga. Of course there are other things that can be trained, like new techniques, but not the power any more.",

I have to disagree, since goten and trunks (who are capable of going SSJ) trained in the time and spirit chamber and powered up a lot. piccolo stated that they were really different when they fused (base strength of goten and trunks went up as well as base gotenks). So even after achieving SSJ there's still room for improvement in their base form. and when they get SSJ, the multiplier applies on their new base. Well that's how I see it.

My theory doesn't work on SSJ3 because, goku would have owned Majin vegeta no problem but they were about equal. If goku has access to SSJ3 (even if he doesn't use it) that mean he has a better mastery of SSJ2 form and could use a SSJ2 really close to SSJ3 to beat up vegeta real quick to prevent boo from appearing.

[freezamite]

Toriyama didn't think it was that much of an increase but he wasn't taking into account that Kaioken x20 was only putting Goku at 50% of Freeza's full power. So he intended to give it a x10 increase but later realised that x50 is more acceptable due to it needing to be, at least, 2 times stronger than Goku's Kaioken.

Toriyama was taking into account Kaioh ken x20, but also the condition of Freezer who as I said, was badly injured.

Goku was still stronger than Freeza during this fight but we don't know if through injuries if the gap was smaller. You say Freeza was badly injured, are you forgetting Goku was beaten to the point that he could barely stand by Freeza? Gohan, Kuririn and Piccolo all noted he had little energy left even after the Kaioken x20 with a Kamehameha.

No, Goku had the same strength than Freezer. If there was a difference, it was really small and in favour of Freezer, who won the first round when surpassing Goku's Kame-Hame-Ha.
And about Goku's injures, yes, he had barely any strength before transforming. But he regains his strength when he enrages after Krilin's death. That was clearly seen when he distransformed after fighting Freezer's full power, and is also proven by the fact that Trunks SSJ (who was as strong as Goku when he came back from Yadrat) had the same ki than Goku in Namek.

Never is it said that your power in base can't increase any more. If that were true then that means Goten and Trunks base strength has already reached its maximum. If that's the case then why does Piccolo say in the RoSaT that Gotenks has become stronger while Gotenks is still in his base form?

Goten and Trunks are native SSJ, they are special in that they were born with the ability to transform totally unlocked. This is why they not only are SSJ, but also full power SSJ without having to learn to controll the stress and burden a normal sayan would have when transforming.
Of course, as they reached the SSJ without surpassing their base limit power, they can still grow, and this also explain how they were weaker than the full power SSJ Goku or Gohan of the Cell Games.

The reason why Goku was stronger than Vegeta was because he was forced to increase his power in order to keep up with Gohan's insane potential. After Gohan got SSJ and Goku could finally spar with him without holding back Gohan's power began to exceed Goku's. Because of this Goku's power also increased because it was trying to keep up with Gohan's through Zenkai's and just a Saiyan's innate ability to get stronger from fighting against a stronger opponent.

Fighting against a stronger opponent doesn't make you strong, and Zenkay's doesn't work once reached the limit of strength. There wasn't a single zenkay power in the Cell saga besides Cell's own zenkay.
If it was that easy, Vegeta could power up far more than Goku the same way he did power up in Namek, asking Trunks to hurt him and then having a Zenkay.

If this were the case Gohan would still be stronger than Vegeta because as far as we know Vegeta never became a "FPSSJ" and if we're saying that ki management is the ki to a higher multiplier for SSJ then Gohan should have a higher multiplier than his father seeing as Gohan was stronger than Goku in the Cell Games. So how does he go from being the most powerful Saiyan to one of the weakest? Surely he would have kept his ki management the same as it would be like riding a bike. Otherwise people who slack off will lose the ability to fly or do ki blasts.

Vegeta reached the FPSSJ in the bu saga. And about Gohan having a better SSJ than Goku during cell games, well, that's exactly what happened, he was better than Goku as a SSJ.
Vegeta has the greatest natural strength of all the sayans, he was a high class sayan and the strongest of them all. In fact, Vegeta's base strength is always superior than Goku's, who surpasses Vegeta using high level techniques like Kaioh Ken or better forms of SSJ.

SSJ2 is a larger increase than you believe. Gohan was only toying with Cell and even after he lost half his Ki he still released a Kamehameha to combat Cell's, overpowering him while he was distracted. And to say SSJ2 and SSJ3 have a smaller difference between them is just silly. If that were the case then why is it SSJ3 Goku, who was holding back, annihilates Fat Boo and Majin Vegeta, who was trying, doesn't?

Gohan toying Cell doesn't mean the difference was that big. I mean, Vegeta could also toy with Dodoria with only 10-20% more strength than him. And what you say of Gohan being stronger than Cell with only half his strength... I completely disagree. Read the manga, Cell wasn't even fighting at full strength when Vegeta distracted him. He was making fun of Gohan in fact, so of course, Gohan was far weaker than super perfect cell.

About the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3, I think that Goku SSJ3 holding back couldn't kill Fat Boo. He could if he had fought at maximum strength, but not holding back. With that being said, a smaller jump from SSJ2 to SSJ3 doesn't mean there is not any jump. There was a Jump, but a much smaller jump compared to what Full Power SSJ represented in comparison to the base state.

As I stated a little further up Goku was also injured, more so than Freeza. If a more injured Goku is beating a slightly injured Freeza means that Goku is fighting him with a form that only increases his base power 10x then there is something seriously wrong with your math my friend.

Goku powers up through rage, and regains his full strength. So 10x is a good guess and Toriyama agrees with me

I have to disagree, since goten and trunks (who are capable of going SSJ) trained in the time and spirit chamber and powered up a lot. piccolo stated that they were really different when they fused (base strength of goten and trunks went up as well as base gotenks). So even after achieving SSJ there's still room for improvement in their base form. and when they get SSJ, the multiplier applies on their new base. Well that's how I see it.

My theory doesn't work on SSJ3 because, goku would have owned Majin vegeta no problem but they were about equal. If goku has access to SSJ3 (even if he doesn't use it) that mean he has a better mastery of SSJ2 form and could use a SSJ2 really close to SSJ3 to beat up vegeta real quick to prevent boo from appearing.
yakonojo

Difference is that Goten and (present) Trunks never reached the SSJ, they were born as SSJs wich is different. Remember what Gohan tells to Goten when Goten said he wanted to be a SSJ?
¡This was in order to explain how different they were compared to normal sayans!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama confirms in this interview that the Super Saiyan gives a x50 increase.

What this interview say is that Toriyama intended to give the original SSJ a 10x bump over Goku's base state, and that the x50 multiplier is a misinterpretation of the manga.

No, what he says is that he was going with the x10 multiplier, because the x50 multiplier seemed too much for him. In the same guide that this interview comes from, the SS multiplier is given to be x50. If Toriyama still believed that SS = Base x10, then he would most likely have the authors correct this, since he was the supervisor of the guidebook.

Of course, x50 doesn't make any sense, because not only Goku wasn't far stronger than Freezer when he used his full power (they were equal in strength) and this was in a scenario where Freeza was badly injured by the Genkidama, at aproximately 1/3 of the power he should have normally.

Goku was even more badly injured than Freeza. And later in the series, in Trunks' Timeline (Timeline 2), Goku killed both Mecha Freeza (who was said to be stronger than he was before), and King Cold (who is said to be inferior to Freeza, but not by much). And Freeza wasn't stated to have gotten significantly weaker, and even if he did, he should have recovered his stamina when going Full Power, since he was... at full power. Goku's stamina also recovered when he transformed into a Super Saiyan, and even Goku left Freeza to go full power because he said he wanted to beat Freeza at his best, and he did eventually. Goku used Kaio-ken x10 against 50% Freeza, and he literally couldn't do shit. Even when he fired his Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha, Freeza blocked it with one hand. Still, Goku couldn't do shit, just some burns on Freeza's palm, nothing more. So, with all these, Super Saiyan being x10 at that point really makes no sense.

Nope, once you become SSJ is prety well said that your power in base state can't increase any more. This is why Vegeta could transform himself into a SSJ, and what we see during the manga. Of course there are other things that can be trained, like new techniques, but not the power any more.

No, it was never stated such thing. Go with the x10 or the x50 multiplier if you want, Super Saiyan is a set multiplier, like every Saiyan transformation in the manga (except the Grades, possibly), so you would have to strengthen you base form to equally strengthen the Super Saiyan forms. We have seen Goku & Vegeta training in base (and not skill training, Goku doing training with weights on his body, and Vegeta in gravity room), and base Gotenks got stronger than he previously was.

SSJ Base in Goku is a 10x multiplier. But this is for Goku, who has the best ki management of the whole series before the transformation. In Vegeta's case I would say it is a 2-3 multiplier at the begining, no more than that for sure.

Like I said before, every Saiyan transformation has a set multiplier:

Oozaru = base x10 (from the manga)
Super Saiyan = base x 50 (from the Daizenshuu & Super Exiting Guides, including Toriyama's interview)
Super Saiyan 2 = SS x2 = base x100 (from the Super Exiting Guides)
Super Saiyan 3 = SS2 x4 = SS x8 = base x400 (from the Super Exiting Guides)

The Toriyama interview is from the Super Exciting Guides by the way, and he is also a supervisor of the guides.

Jump from SSJ to SSJ2 is not a great deal. In fact, SSJ2 is not a new transformation but an improvement of the SSJ form.

SS2 = SS x2. And Super Saiyan & Super Saiyan 2 are two different forms, as it was clearly shown in the manga.

The fact that Cell, that was a SSJ, wasn't killed in a single punch by Gohan SSJ2

Gohan wasn't killing Cell because he wanted to torture him. If Gohan was going all out from start, he would have destroyed Cell very easily.

and Gohan SSJ2 wasn't a weak SSJ2 at all, it had nearly the same power than Majin Vegeta

Vegeta said that he & Goku had surpassed Gohan as he was in Boo arc, but he couldn't tell who would be stronger if Gohan had gotten angry. Goku though believed that Gohan would be the strongest if he had gotten angry, and since Gohan never managed to get power from his anger, we will never know how strong Gohan really was.

The same about the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3, that is even smaller. That's because those forms are really close to push the body to the limit, as is proven by the fact that Goku can't resists its SSJ3 form while being alive.

Like I mentioned before, SS3 = SS2 x2. And also, the Daizenshuu stated that SS3 draws a Saiyan's hidden power to its limits.

This is the same as if I say that Yajirobee was stronger than Goku when the fight against Vegeta only because he managed to hurt the sayan when Goku needed Kaioh ken to do so. Of course, Yajirobee wasn't stronger than Goku, he could hurt the sayan thank's to him being so weakened because of the injuries during the fight.

No, Yajirobe could hurt Vegeta only with his sharp sword, like Mecha Freeza was hurt by Trunks' even sharper sword.

[Hitiro]

Toriyama was taking into account Kaioh ken x20, but also the condition of Freezer who as I said, was badly injured.

Incorrect, it was said in the interview with Toriyama that he hadn't taken into account Kaioken when he was thinking x10 for SSJ. He says in the interview that it made more sense that SSJ was a x50 increase but he drew the fight as if it was a x10 increase.

No, Goku had the same strength than Freezer. If there was a difference, it was really small and in favour of Freezer, who won the first round when surpassing Goku's Kame-Hame-Ha.

That means nothing, it is more likely that the technique Freeza used to surpass Goku's Kamehameha was just a stronger technique. Like how Goku's(who was stronger than Piccolo) Kamehameha against Raditz was only at a powerlevel of 924 while Piccolo's Makankosappo was at a powerlevel of 1,330. Freeza got in a few blows but Goku was still getting in more punches than him.

And about Goku's injures, yes, he had barely any strength before transforming. But he regains his strength when he enrages after Krilin's death. That was clearly seen when he distransformed after fighting Freezer's full power, and is also proven by the fact that Trunks SSJ (who was as strong as Goku when he came back from Yadrat) had the same ki than Goku in Namek.

Its not really proven, the ki felt was similar to Goku's SSJ form, it doesn't mean that the strength or amount of ki was the same.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

Goten and Trunks are native SSJ, they are special in that they were born with the ability to transform totally unlocked. This is why they not only are SSJ, but also full power SSJ without having to learn to controll the stress and burden a normal sayan would have when transforming.
Of course, as they reached the SSJ without surpassing their base limit power, they can still grow, and this also explain how they were weaker than the full power SSJ Goku or Gohan of the Cell Games.

I don't see any problem with this, but if its all the same there is still no proof that you are correct about Saiyan's having a base limit. If they did then what use is there for them to be training in their base form? Goku, if you recall, was training in otherworld with weights. If he's at his limit in his base form there wouldn't be a need for him to train in it. Also Gohan trained with the Z Sword and its stated his strength increased in his regular form.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

Fighting against a stronger opponent doesn't make you strong, and Zenkay's doesn't work once reached the limit of strength. There wasn't a single zenkay power in the Cell saga besides Cell's own zenkay.
If it was that easy, Vegeta could power up far more than Goku the same way he did power up in Namek, asking Trunks to hurt him and then having a Zenkay.

Fighting against a stronger opponent does make a Saiyan stronger.

Chapter: 257 (DBZ 63), P10.1-2
Context: Vegeta bragging to Dodoria about how he became stronger.
Vegeta: “Fuhahaha…! We Saiyans grow stronger each time we fight…! The stronger the opponent, the stronger we become…So I’m becoming stronger too…! I almost died on Earth, and have now vastly powered up…!”

And as far as Zenkai's are concerned they didn't disappear, the Saiyan's had just grown so strong that Zenkai's only give small boosts.

Vegeta reached the FPSSJ in the bu saga. And about Gohan having a better SSJ than Goku during cell games, well, that's exactly what happened, he was better than Goku as a SSJ.
Vegeta has the greatest natural strength of all the sayans, he was a high class sayan and the strongest of them all. In fact, Vegeta's base strength is always superior than Goku's, who surpasses Vegeta using high level techniques like Kaioh Ken or better forms of SSJ.

This is your own assumption, it isn't stated that Vegeta reached FPSSJ. There is no proof that he did or didn't obtain it. If it was based on having a good SSJ form then Gohan should never have gotten weaker as he would still have good control over the form.

Gohan toying Cell doesn't mean the difference was that big. I mean, Vegeta could also toy with Dodoria with only 10-20% more strength than him. And what you say of Gohan being stronger than Cell with only half his strength... I completely disagree. Read the manga, Cell wasn't even fighting at full strength when Vegeta distracted him. He was making fun of Gohan in fact, so of course, Gohan was far weaker than super perfect cell.

I am not debating Gohan wasn't weaker than Super Perfect Cell, but he still managed to hold off Cell's Kamehameha even with half of his Ki. Gohan at 100% would have been still much stronger than Super Perfect Cell.

About the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3, I think that Goku SSJ3 holding back couldn't kill Fat Boo. He could if he had fought at maximum strength, but not holding back. With that being said, a smaller jump from SSJ2 to SSJ3 doesn't mean there is not any jump. There was a Jump, but a much smaller jump compared to what Full Power SSJ represented in comparison to the base state.

You need to read the manga again if you don't think he was holding back. He was picking Fat Boo apart and making it look like nothing. Only to buy time for Trunks. Piccolo even mentions that it seems Goku wasn't trying and asked if he could have defeated Fat Boo if he went all out.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

As you can see Goku is unsure but when it comes to the last sentence he says that it shouldn't be him who should defeat Fat Boo. Implying he might have been able to if he were to go all out.

Goku powers up through rage, and regains his full strength. So 10x is a good guess and Toriyama agrees with me

Actually according to the interview Toriyama did he agrees 50x is more reasonable.

Also as I stated there is no proof he regained his full strength. As I explained further up about the "evidence" you tried to provide me with Trunks having the same ki as Goku it was the way the ki felt, not the size or amount of it. As explained in the strength checker on this site which is from the original Japanese text.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

it isn't stated that Vegeta reached FPSSJ. There is no proof that he did or didn't obtain it.

Actually, there are hints in the manga that Vegeta, Future Trunks, Trunks, and Goten (as well as Gotenks & Vegetto, of course) reached Super Saiyan Full Power, if you pay attention to their auras.


http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... DH/111.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... f307cd.jpg

This is the new aura that surrounds Goku & Gohan when they reached Super Saiyan Full Power. Even the Daizenshuu notice the new aura, so it's not just an artistic choice.

SUPER SAIYAN FULL POWER
First Appears: Vol. 34+
Goku trained in the Room of Spirit and Time before his fight with Cell. He draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits, and the aura that surrounds him is different.

Now later in the series, Future Trunks, Vegeta, Goten, Trunks, and Gotenks display this aura (and Goten even has the round eyes that are exclusive to the Super Saiyan Full Power state).

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... ecf50f.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 2f9e73.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 5d244b.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 9c1368.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 17a9f8.jpg

And while we didn't see Vegetto with that aura, if Goku & Vegeta are Super Saiyan Full Power, then Vegetto should be as well.

Of course, the only ones officially confirmed to have reached that state are Goku & Gohan.

[Hitiro]

snip

Most of what we have to go on is possible art differences from one point in the timeline to the next, as you said the only characters we can be sure of actually have obtained a mastered SSJ form are Goku & Gohan. As for Vegetto I'm on the fence with this, assuming Goku & Vegeta obtained "FPSSJ" I don't believe Vegetto should also be one as well. Let us not forget that Vegetto is a new entity entirely so with a new body probably comes a different feeling with the SSJ form. Especially if two consciousness are inhabiting the body. Who knows how they must balance out their state of minds to achieve what we know Goku achieved. Going back to the Namek Saga where Goku swapped places with Ginyu it was hard for either of them to access the power of the foreign bodies they were in. Admittedly Vegetto is made up of the sum of Goku and Vegeta's parts so it should be easier for them to control but its still a handful of Goku and a handful of Vegeta so Goku can only work the Goku parts of the body efficiently and Vegeta can only work the Vegeta parts of the body efficiently. They aren't in a state of equilibrium. Or that's how I feel it is anyway. For lack of a simple explanation, new body, new rules.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If you follow the "aura logic" (and thus believe that Vegeta, Goten, etc, are also SSFP), then Vegetto should also be one since Gotenks seems to be as well.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I guess Goku isn't FPSSJ since he doesn't have the stand up-ish aura? I don't think FPSSJ is decided with an aura based on that. Furthermore its likely only Gohan and Goku achieved it. Mirai Trunks would more than likely never attain it.