GT appreciation

[Cold Skin]

I can cite those that still make one of my friends angry everytime it's even mentionned, I guess you might find one or two in there that can suit you:
- Goku's childish behavior has no reason to be since he has his memory intact.
- Gohan shouldn't turn Super Saiyan without any explanation about why he can or why he chooses to do it.
- Cell obviously can't regrow his tail in Perfect Form to absorb anyone he wants, otherwise he's not "perfect" if Gero thought he would need absorbing anyone after that, and he would have likely tried that in the past to be always "more perfect", especially when in trouble.
- Goku and Vegeta are not supposed to act like they know about Fusion Dance since movie 12 can't have happened. Goku would need to take a few hours to teach Vegeta and train with him.
- Clothes will magically change when turning Super Saiyan 4.
- Goku leaves for no good reason with Shenron at the end and Dragon Balls entering him are not explained.
- Goku is shown adult without explaination at the end.
- If you take the Special into account, the Dragon Balls being back is not explained.
- Goku's status is left unexplained at the end: is he ghost? is he immortal? did he get his day back on Earth? (don't remember if he even has a halo on his head)

I'm not much into GT, so the only thing I actually care about is Gohan being Super Saiyan in the new movie, but it's no big deal, any explanation - no matter how lackluster it might be - will be fine, and if they don't explain, there are always ways to invent explanations. However, that's the point of plothole: you're not supposed to be able to invent explanations on your own to link "plot state A" and "plot state C", they're supposed to be given to you by "plot state B" somewhere in between. If you have to invent an explanation, it means there's a hole to fill, a plothole.

If you don't find any element that does indeed bother you and seems incoherent in this list, then you're likely putting GT on a pedestal.

[JeffJarrett]

Thank you!
I see how a few can be plothole, like clothes that magically change when turning Super Saiyan 4, but those are elements introduced in GT and leaved without explanation in GT itself. Those aren't continuity errors with the manga (for Cell's tail, it is shown in the manga that Cell can regrow his tail to create Cell Juniors).

[Gaffer Tape]

- Goku's childish behavior has no reason to be since he has his memory intact.

Well, as has just been brought up over in the Goku as a child thread, there are distinct physiological differences between an adult and child's brain, namely that a child's brain isn't fully developed, so saying that just because the memories are the same means that Goku should be the same is like taking the contents of your hard drive, processing them through a Commodore 64 and wondering why they're not working the same.

And, again, likely for that reason, it's pretty standard in fiction for an adult put into a child's body to start acting like a child again.

[Ryuman]

A psychological change in Goku due to the wish doesn't quite wash with me, because then you'd assume that other things like all of his muscles would revert to their underdeveloped child state. And while Goku is definitely less muscular, his strength was not affected (Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong?).
Anyway, I think GT has some nice designs that I always like seeing (But maybe that's because I focus on GT the least, so it's a case of seeing something I don't see everyday). Like many others I find the Super Saiyan 4 form to be great in both design and concept, and the fact that the Perfect Files suggest the transformation may be in a different line than the others makes it all the more interesting.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

And while Goku is definitely less muscular, his strength was not affected (Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong?).

His strength WAS affected, otherwise, when fighting Baby, his Super Saiyan 3 transformation wouldn't have dissolved as quickly as it did.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Cold Skin, apparently you did anger the GT fans. I can't take you seriously. If you are going to be serious, then come up with better points of why GT was so "bad". Most of the points you posted there can be easily explained.

[*] It's SSJ4. That's how it works. It really doesn't required an explanation of why the clothes got back after they changed back to base form.
[*] No where did in the manga say Cell can't pull out of his tail in order to absorb. He can if he wants to add more power.
[*] Goku disappearing makes the ending more impact.
[*] It's been 100 years. Of course he would be adult.

By the way, this is the GT Appreciation thread. If you want to bash the series, go create a new thread dedicated to it.

[JeffJarrett]

Cold Skin responded a request I made. For the SSJ4 clothes, Dragon Ball is a manga where several characters can create and regenerate clothes. And also, Metamoran clothes appear on characters using the fusion dance. So another transformation creating clothes shouldn't be that shocking.

[Ryuman]

And while Goku is definitely less muscular, his strength was not affected (Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong?).

His strength WAS affected, otherwise, when fighting Baby, his Super Saiyan 3 transformation wouldn't have dissolved as quickly as it did.

Okay, I concede to that, but I meant his actual physical strength instead of something like stamina.

[Cold Skin]

Cold Skin, apparently you did anger the GT fans. I can't take you seriously. If you are going to be serious, then come up with better points of why GT was so "bad". Most of the points you posted there can be easily explained.

[*] It's SSJ4. That's how it works. It really doesn't required an explanation of why the clothes got back after they changed back to base form.
[*] No where did in the manga say Cell can't pull out of his tail in order to absorb. He can if he wants to add more power.
[*] Goku disappearing makes the ending more impact.
[*] It's been 100 years. Of course he would be adult.

By the way, this is the GT Appreciation thread. If you want to bash the series, go create a new thread dedicated to it.

As JeffJarrett said, I only replied to previous posts mentionning it.

And as I said, these are not my opinion, I was using a friend's opinion since we lived in a same appartment along with two other buddies back then (university years) and chose to discover the 64 episodes at the same time. So I was there to see and hear him be scandalized for half an hour after the end of an episode showcasing one of the points.

I don't care much for most of them, since I consider that continuation as being its proper show with its proper concepts, much like DB Multiverse, it doesn't hurt having it around and doesn't "destroy" the original material which is kept separated.
However, I do agree with the point that Cell growing back his tail shouldn't happen:
- if it retracted, there was a reason: it wouldn't be used to aim and absorb anymore.
- even when giving birth to Cell Jr., it didn't extend, just opened.
- he reached cellular perfection, there's likely no need or way he could absorb anyone else after that.
- saying "nowhere was it stated in the manga" is not a good reason. I can say "Gohan can turn Super Saiyan 6, it's not said in the manga that he can't". And yet...

And as far as GT is concerned, I don't appreciate it, I don't hate it either, there were some good ideas and some bad ideas.
It's just its own series, a possible continuation, apart from the "real" story like the movies and it doesn't bother me to see elements of it included in games.

Want things that I appreciate?
- Tsuful being back in the game as the Saiyans' natural enemy.
- Sleeping Baby's immediate response to the word "Saiyans".
- Idea of heroes and friends turned evil through possession. Could have been a great threat, we had: Cell naturally having heroes' powers, Boo able to have any hero's powers and traits by absorbing them, so it seemed logical that the next step was to have heroes themselves becoming the enemy.
- Beast side to the Super Saiyan 4 appearance (especially the eyes).
- Overuse of the Dragon Balls turning out against the characters, a smart plot move based on Old Kaio Shin's sayings. When you don't respect the rules, you pay someday...

[JeffJarrett]

Want things that I appreciate?
- Tsuful being back in the game as the Saiyans' natural enemy.
- Sleeping Baby's immediate response to the word "Saiyans".
- Idea of heroes and friends turned evil through possession. Could have been a great threat, we had: Cell naturally having heroes' powers, Boo able to have any hero's powers and traits by absorbing them, so it seemed logical that the next step was to have heroes themselves becoming the enemy.
- Beast side to the Super Saiyan 4 appearance (especially the eyes).
- Overuse of the Dragon Balls turning out against the characters, a smart plot move based on Old Kaio Shin's sayings. When you don't respect the rules, you pay someday...

Yes, Baby's response to the word "Saiyans" was great.
Also the Super Saiyan 4 not being another blonde guy but rather something beteween the regular Saiyan and Oozaru was a good idea.

[Hitiro]

- Goku's childish behavior has no reason to be since he has his memory intact.

Well, as has just been brought up over in the Goku as a child thread, there are distinct physiological differences between an adult and child's brain, namely that a child's brain isn't fully developed, so saying that just because the memories are the same means that Goku should be the same is like taking the contents of your hard drive, processing them through a Commodore 64 and wondering why they're not working the same.

And, again, likely for that reason, it's pretty standard in fiction for an adult put into a child's body to start acting like a child again.

There are children who, due to their upbringing and the events they have witnessed, have turned out to be more mature than most adults. Considering Goku reverted back and remembers everything Goku should act no different than his adult self. He may experience a change of perspective on things but that shouldn't effect how he would normally react to the situation given the development of his personality through all those years. You can't stuff the mind of an adult into a child's body and expect his personality to change completely into a child's one just because the child's mind isn't fully developed, personalities aren't easily changed unless you go through something like memory loss. This is why there are adults who have accidents and forget the majority of their lives only to develop a more childlike personality because their old one doesn't exist as there are no memories to define the original personality. Through remembering pieces of their past life an adult can start to rebuild their original personality but of course it won't technically be the same once they remember everything as the new memories they make during the time before they remember everything about their past lives can have a substantial impact on their personality due to it being not as developed as their original one.

[Gaffer Tape]

Sorry, but I don't agree. And believe me, I'm the kind of person who believes in nurture over nature, but there is no denying that there are strong biological functions at work that play a huge part in who we are. Yes, there are smart and mature children. And yet, when those children grow into adults, they are going to be different than they are as children. And while a lot of that has to do with experience, a lot of it has to do with simple development. The brain grows. The body grows. Hormones affect behavior. So, no, I'm not saying that Goku would necessarily be the same person who was when he was a natural child because he's had different experiences and perspective, but I can certainly find any differences from his adult self believable because, yes, his brain is going to be significantly (and suddenly) different.

Granted, ours are both theories. It's rather hard to have any empirical data on the effects of transferring adult thinking processes into child brains, as the sample size is rather small.

[smiley]

To answer the thread's question, I watched about half of the first arc of GT (the black star dragonball arc) and that's about it. At that time, I couldn't stand the idea of Goku as a kid again, the fact that he also became dumb/childish again, and other criticisms people usually bring up.

Heck, I didn't even like Dragonball even a little after the Freeza saga. GT, I thought, was basically no better or worse than the Cell/Buu sagas. Just more of what people stereotype Dragon ball to be: "new villain shows up, fight him, lose, train/transform, fight again, win". Dragonball, I thought, was already way too prolonged, make it even longer was beyond ridiculous.

However, just very recently, I changed my mind on several of these matters, like the quality of the Buu saga and began to somewhat like it. I'm starting to contemplate to watch GT all the way through this time.

[Cipher]

Okay, I concede to that, but I meant his actual physical strength instead of something like stamina.

That was probably affected too, to some extent, but what's it matter? "Strength," past a certain level in Dragon Ball, is all ki-based. And we've been shown children can have just as much, if not more ki-based power than adults or even their adult selves (Gohan was stronger during the Cell Games than as a late teenager, for example). Goku probably does lose some physical strength, and some of his more nuanced powers like teleportation and full use of Super Saiyan 3. Works for me.

And I'm completely with Gaffer Tape on the child brain thing. He loses those essential-for-decision-making fully developed frontal lobes. It's a trope in these kinds of situations and, actually, it makes a lot of sense.

[Ryuman]

Oh yeah, Ki just works however it wants to work. I'd also forgotten about how ki can enhance physical strength as well i.e. Trunks' little test for Goku. I guess it all works out, then.

[mister yummy]

...
- Goku's childish behavior has no reason to be since he has his memory intact.
- Gohan shouldn't turn Super Saiyan without any explanation about why he can or why he chooses to do it.
- Cell obviously can't regrow his tail in Perfect Form to absorb anyone he wants, otherwise he's not "perfect" if Gero thought he would need absorbing anyone after that, and he would have likely tried that in the past to be always "more perfect", especially when in trouble.
- Goku and Vegeta are not supposed to act like they know about Fusion Dance since movie 12 can't have happened. Goku would need to take a few hours to teach Vegeta and train with him.
- Clothes will magically change when turning Super Saiyan 4.
- Goku leaves for no good reason with Shenron at the end and Dragon Balls entering him are not explained.
- Goku is shown adult without explaination at the end.
- If you take the Special into account, the Dragon Balls being back is not explained.
- Goku's status is left unexplained at the end: is he ghost? is he immortal? did he get his day back on Earth? (don't remember if he even has a halo on his head)...

1: A Child's mind is physically different from a grown-up's. his could in part explain Goku's slight personality shift.
2: I don't see a problem here. Either he learned how to transform while still ultimate, or he lost the ultimate powerup. Either is fine with me.
3: it was never shown if Cell could or couldn't still absorbpeople with his tail.
4: Why can't Movie 12 have happened? Even if it didn't, Goku could have taught Vegita the dance offscreen as a contingency.
5: SSJ4 is a magical transformation. No problem there.
6: Goku leaves without much reason all the time. He absorbs the dragonballs, and becomes een more powerful.
7: He wished himself adult again on the dragonballs within himself. One of his new powers is unlimited wishes. Alternatively, it skips way forward, and he's naturally grown up again.
8: Goku wished for them to be back, maybe?
9: 100 years in the future, he's immortal. He wished himself so. He and Vegita fought in a distant solar system, and almost killed each other, and Goku wished to be immortal and to go back to earth.

[DBZAOTA482]

Okay, I concede to that, but I meant his actual physical strength instead of something like stamina.

That was probably affected too, to some extent, but what's it matter? "Strength," past a certain level in Dragon Ball, is all ki-based. And we've been shown children can have just as much, if not more ki-based power than adults or even their adult selves (Gohan was stronger during the Cell Games than as a late teenager, for example). Goku probably does lose some physical strength

Yet he can beat someone stronger than Majin Boo at base level, whom of which SSJ3 Adult Goku couldn't even hope of harming.

Gotta love GT Logic.

[mister yummy]

I don't care what anyone says, including Goku. There's no way Rildo is stronger than even Mr. Buu. Goku's frame of reference is off, due to being turned into a kid again.

[Cipher]

Yet he can beat someone stronger than Majin Boo at base level, whom of which SSJ3 Adult Goku couldn't even hope of harming.

Gotta love GT Logic.

The entire idea that base Goku in GT is as strong as his previous Super Saiyan 3 self is based on a single, throw-away line open to multiple interpretations. Personally, I've never bought it. No character in GT is significantly stronger than their end-of-Z selves. At worst, depending on the intent of that line, that single line might be a plothole, rather than the entire series.

Re: "Vegeta shouldn't know the Fusion Dance": I'd kind of agree, if it weren't for the fact Goku and Vegeta discussed doing it multiple times in the late Boo arc, with Vegeta refusing each time (presumably because he'd been watching from the afterlife). It was either a plothole then or not at all.

[Nazi Cola]

I don't understand the opinion that the "stronger than Boo" line is a throw-away line at all...but that's just me, I suppose.

As for Vegeta knowing the Fusion Dance, I don't think that's a plot hole either. He probably saw it from the afterlife.