Character derailment

[DBZAOTA482]

Which point of the series do you think a character was given sloppy development? It can be from any title or story arc of your choosing.

For me aside from certain filler scenes and GT in general, the only character I think was derailed to some extent was Goku after the Cell Saga. Not to advocate any Majin Boo hate (you'll find plenty of it already) but the decisions he made throughout the Saga really drove me up the wall.

One thing is that he puts far too much faith in his children's achievements. First, he refuses to let Gohan save Videl during the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai when she was clearly getting beaten to death by Spopovitch. When I saw this scene I was thinking "By god, he has to be the worst father-in-law ever!" . Seriously, that is like the nirvana of the asian parent attitude (risking the life of a mostly-innocent teenage girl just so his son can succeed). Fucking psycho. Then, he refuses to kill Majin Boo at SSJ3 when he was strong enough to kill him because he wanted two rookies to beat him. Two other questionables decision was him not using SSJ3 against Vegeta when he was under Bobbidi's spell and knocking him out, and him saving a two-faced liar like Mr. Satan but leaving Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan for dead when Boo unleashed his Planet Buster.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Android arc Vegeta was probably my least favorite period of Vegeta. He was good all the way up to the point where he lost to 18 and then he was just dead set on beating Kakarot. Thankfully Majin Vegeta redeemed him by showing he had a heart. Android arc Vegeta wasn't horrible but it was definitely his weakest period. Piccolo also got a swift kick in the balls after he fought 17.

[DBZAOTA482]

Android arc Vegeta was probably my least favorite period of Vegeta. He was good all the way up to the point where he lost to 18 and then he was just dead set on beating Kakarot. Thankfully Majin Vegeta redeemed him by showing he had a heart. Android arc Vegeta wasn't horrible but it was definitely his weakest period. Piccolo also got a swift kick in the balls after he fought 17.

Cell Saga Vegeta was certainly my least favorite period of his character as well although it's hard to say it's derailment. Also, Piccolo didn't act off to me after that fight.

[Gaffer Tape]

"Yamucha wasn't exactly faithful." Yeah... That's in character...

And, yeah, while I wouldn't say Vegeta's actions in the Cell arc were terribly out-of-character, they were extremely Flanderized into something annoying and ludicrously dumb. I guess the Cell arc in general had characters either derailed or acting terribly ridiculous.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Android arc Vegeta was probably my least favorite period of Vegeta. He was good all the way up to the point where he lost to 18 and then he was just dead set on beating Kakarot. Thankfully Majin Vegeta redeemed him by showing he had a heart. Android arc Vegeta wasn't horrible but it was definitely his weakest period. Piccolo also got a swift kick in the balls after he fought 17.

Cell Saga Vegeta was certainly my least favorite period of his character as well although it's hard to say it's derailment. Also, Piccolo didn't act off to me after that fight.

It's not that he acted off its that he became useless. I liked seeing Piccolo hold off the big bad guy until Goku or Gohan came to save the day. His fights with Freeza and 17 were incredible.

[hleV]

I like Android arc Vegeta. Pretty much every other prior-bad guy would've had redeemed themselves by that point, but not Vegeta. He had remained just as evil, if not more.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I like Android arc Vegeta. Pretty much every other prior-bad guy would've had redeemed themselves by that point, but not Vegeta. He had remained just as evil, if not more.

I agree; I loved that about him.

[Gaffer Tape]

It's not that he's evil. It's that he's stupid. He was evil in the Freeza arc but was damned clever about it. Cell arc Vegeta is so self-sabotaging, it only makes sense if he's purposely trying to screw himself over.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

It's not that he's evil. It's that he's stupid. He was evil in the Freeza arc but was damned clever about it. Cell arc Vegeta is so self-sabotaging, it only makes sense if he's purposely trying to screw himself over.

Against Freeza, he was more terrified, for obvious reasons; on Earth, he was more confident; and probably less caring about his or the lives of others since his vengeance had passed over and what was left was his sense of warrior pride.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I like Android arc Vegeta. Pretty much every other prior-bad guy would've had redeemed themselves by that point, but not Vegeta. He had remained just as evil, if not more.

I still like him but I don't think he is as good as he was in the other 3 arcs. Buu saga Vegeta is my favorite.

It's not that he's evil. It's that he's stupid. He was evil in the Freeza arc but was damned clever about it. Cell arc Vegeta is so self-sabotaging, it only makes sense if he's purposely trying to screw himself over.

He wasn't stupid he was just trying to push his limits and seek a challenge. Seriously you would get pretty bored knocking around the strongest guy ever with little to no effort. My main complaint with Android arc Vegeta is the fact that he is so focused on Kakarot. If he was a little more focused on getting stronger with methods like sparring with others he would get much much stronger and really he wouldn't have to worry about surpassing Kakarot because he likely would.

[DBZAOTA482]

"Yamucha wasn't exactly faithful." Yeah... That's in character...

No, that's just Bulma spouting bullshit and also I'd like to see you explain how the Cell arc fucks up all the characters. If you ever say Vegeta letting Cell reach perfection or something that has to do with Goku making Gohan fight Cell then I will kill you.

[Saiga]

It was Trunks who said it, not Yamcha.

And if him being with another woman is OOC because he was scared of women, then him being with Bulma in the first place is as well.

[Gaffer Tape]

If you ever say Vegeta letting Cell reach perfection or something that has to do with Goku making Gohan fight Cell then I will kill you.

Then prepare to kill me, at least for the former, but what bothers me even more than that is that characters pretty much just shrug off this complete act of betrayal rather than hurl Vegeta into the sun before he causes any more catastrophic damage. But as for the rest of the characters, their complete idiocy of a "plan" coupled with their ridiculous selfishness at the beginning of the arc by saying, "Yeah, sure, we'll let Dr. Gero's evil plan come to fruition or else we'll be bored," only to pull a 180 (except for Vegeta) and say, "No, we can't let Cell's evil plan come to fruition because that's irresponsible." Puh-leeze.

It was Trunks who said it, not Yamcha.

And if him being with another woman is OOC because he was scared of him, then him being with Bulma in the first place is as well.

Due to what I think is a mistaken pronoun, I'm not entirely sure I know what you're saying, but I believe you're saying that I think Yamucha being with another woman is out of character because he's afraid of women. I'm not saying that. It's out of character because Yamucha's motivation all the way back from the beginning of the series, to the very point that Trunks arrives, is to get married. He's always been shown to be faithful and devoted to Blooma, while Blooma is the one who's always been shown to be prone to fits of both irrational and unfounded jealousy and lusting after other men. And somehow we're supposed to buy that Yamucha's the unfaithful one?! Again, puh-leeze!

[Saiga]

Oh yeah, that was meant to be "scared of women" not "him".

Wanting to get married doesn't mean he's incapable of cheating, either. It doesn't even make it unlikely. We've seen nothing about him being faithful, either, nor devoted. We haven't actually seen anything of them as a couple.

[Gaffer Tape]

Yamucha's very last line on the subject while we see them as a couple is him getting all goofy-eyed and hoping Goku is trying to imply he and Blooma should get married. As in married to each other! So... yeah, I do see him as being committed to that relationship. Or at least, I see no evidence outside of that one, bizarre, Vegeta/Blooma shipping justification line that he's not. You're right. We don't see much of their relationship. The one time we do is during the RRA arc, where Blooma is annoyed and jealous simply because other women like him, and even her own mother sides with Yamucha over her! Again, just based on what we know of their individual characters, what we see them actually do in the series, if you had to pick one you believed would cheat on the other, you would honestly pick Yamucha over Blooma?!

I've just always found it so weird that Toriyama would put that line in there, only to immediately follow it up with Yamucha getting all gooey over Blooma. It just doesn't make any sense, and I somehow doubt Toriyama was going for some kind of sophisticated dramatic irony with that. I'm not sure what he was going for, but it's always struck me as odd.

While lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, you could honestly use that to justify any kind of character derailment. In the new upcoming movie, there could be a plot point that says that Goku has actually spent all the time we didn't see him beating and strangling puppies just for the fun of seeing them in pain. I mean, there's absolutely nothing in the series that contradicts that, no evidence that he wouldn't in fact do that. But I still have a hard time seeing people taking that as anything but character derailment. Which is what I think this is.

[Saiga]

Well half the fanbase is convinced that Goku already does that, so I don't think you gave a particularly good example...

I never said Yamcha gave up on his dream of getting married. Still no indication that he's incapable of cheating. And no, I wouldn't say Bulma would be more likely of the two to cheat because it's too presumptuous to judge someone's likelihood to cheat like that.

Oh, look what I found...

Speaking of Yamcha, he was dumped by Bulma, wasn’t he?

That was a shock. I often spoke with Hiromi Tsuru-san, who plays Bulma; both she and I thought Bulma and Yamcha would end up together. And for Vegeta, of all people! It really was a shock. So when I met with Toriyama-sensei, I complained, “Why did it have to be like this?!” Then Toriyama-sensei said, “Come on; [Yamcha]‘s a cheater.” (laughs)

Source.

[DBZAOTA482]

If you ever say Vegeta letting Cell reach perfection or something that has to do with Goku making Gohan fight Cell then I will kill you.

Then prepare to kill me, at least for the former, but what bothers me even more than that is that characters pretty much just shrug off this complete act of betrayal rather than hurl Vegeta into the sun before he causes any more catastrophic damage.

Trunks shoved a Double Buster up Vegeta's ass.

[Gaffer Tape]

Oh, look what I found...

Speaking of Yamcha, he was dumped by Bulma, wasn’t he?

That was a shock. I often spoke with Hiromi Tsuru-san, who plays Bulma; both she and I thought Bulma and Yamcha would end up together. And for Vegeta, of all people! It really was a shock. So when I met with Toriyama-sensei, I complained, “Why did it have to be like this?!” Then Toriyama-sensei said, “Come on; [Yamcha]‘s a cheater.” (laughs)

Source.

Yeah, I just got done reading that too. Not sure what your point is. If anything, it strengthens mine, as all of the actors were surprised by that. It's something they all seemed to think was out of character. Again, this thread is about what we think are examples of "character derailment." As in, when the author takes his own character and makes him do things we feel are out of character. Obviously Toriyama's going to say that. He wrote the line! That's never been in question here!

[Saiga]

Yeah, I just got done reading that too. Not sure what your point is. If anything, it strengthens mine, as all of the actors were surprised by that. It's something they all seemed to think was out of character. Again, this thread is about what we think are examples of "character derailment." As in, when the author takes his own character and makes him do things we feel are out of character. Obviously Toriyama's going to say that. He wrote the line! That's never been in question here!

Whoops, thought you were half-arguing that he didn't cheat at all.

Anyway, I just don't see something like cheating as being OOC. It's pretty damn realistic for it to look that way.

[soulnova]

I'm going to be honest. I think the whole Yamcha cheated on Bulma was a horrible misunderstanding from Bulma's part. She was sure he was cheating on her... you know how she is. Maybe he was helping some Maron-type girl and that wasn't at all good in her book. *shrugs*