Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Since when did the average consensus become "Everybody hates the Cell arc!" Like I read some downer write in a thread?
I loved the Cell arc, and I think it's the second greatest arc in the series, only beaten by the King Piccolo arc.
If I had to rank 'em:
1) King Piccolo Arc.
2) Cell Arc.
3) Saiyan Arc.
4) Boo Arc.
5) Baby Arc.
6) Red Ribbon Arc.
7) Shadow Dragon Arc. Freeza Arc.
9) Super 17 Arc.
10) Pilaf Arc.
11) Any part of any arc that has Pan in it.
I guess some people join a Dragon Ball forum to hate on the series, right? That's common.... Right?
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
Yes, the same MysticVegeta from DBZF is here on Kanzenshuu!
It's fully possible to love a series and still dissect/analyze/criticize it on an artistic level. You don't have to love the Cell arc if you don't want to / have come to a good reason not to that satisfies your own criteria.
I don't think there's any "consensus" like you presume. There's no hive-mind in Dragon Ball fandom...
... other than perhaps all having a common understanding that Appule is the greatest.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: April 2026 |] ::
It's fully possible to love a series and still dissect/analyze/criticize it on an artistic level.
This sums it up.
The Artificial Human and Cell arcs are my least favourite in Dragonball but I like parts-
The build up to Cell's appearance was terrific and had a great mysterious atmosphere. Cell was also hugely enjoyable in his first form, there was finally some tension as he silently went around absorbing people as the Artificial Humans didn't do this for me.
I quite liked Trunks' introduction (despite not liking Freeza coming back). It was really exciting and again mysterious, I wanted to know who this mystery Super Saiyan is.
The Trunks TV special. Beautifully animated with some great performances with some really intensity and a darker atmosphere. If the actual Artificial Human arc was more like this I would have enjoyed it a lot more.
The Cell Game. The arc finally more or less came together at last here. The fight between Goku and Cell was terrific- animewise and Gohan's ascension to SSJ2 was even more beautifully handled.
Even some of my favourite arcs such as the Saiyan, Namek and Freeza arcs have flaws. I think being a fan of something means you can criticize it. Doesn't mean I like them any less.
It is in his character to be rude and a bit crass. He's a hick, with no formal education. That is Son Goku. That is who he is.
Superman in an orange Gi was the bastard son of FUNimation. Its not The real character, it is as false as Chatku.
MysticVegeta wrote:I don't get how you can like things that you think are bad. That's retarded
It's a "guilty pleasure". In music, I generally see it as having a soft spot for catchy pop songs when you yourself are not a pop music fan (think: Carly Rae Jepsen's big hit).
I like a Gamecube game (originally an arcade game) called Smashing Drive. It's an awful game. There's really nothing good about it. But I also happen to love it.
For many folks, DBZ is absolutely a guilty pleasure. There's nothing wrong with that. I certainly like other forms of media, and I can certainly look down upon a lot of the terrible writing in the series, but at the same time I also respect a lot of the fantastic writing in the series. That's part of what I find so fascinating about Toriyama.
Also, free warning: tone down the general offensive / antagonistic talkings, both here and in other posts I've seen.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: April 2026 |] ::
I think it's just an example of "It's Popular, Now It Sucks".
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
VegettoEX wrote:
It's a "guilty pleasure". In music, I generally see it as having a soft spot for catchy pop songs when you yourself are not a pop music fan (think: Carly Rae Jepsen's big hit).
I like a Gamecube game (originally an arcade game) called Smashing Drive. It's an awful game. There's really nothing good about it. But I also happen to love it.
For many folks, DBZ is absolutely a guilty pleasure. There's nothing wrong with that. I certainly like other forms of media, and I can certainly look down upon a lot of the terrible writing in the series, but at the same time I also respect a lot of the fantastic writing in the series. That's part of what I find so fascinating about Toriyama.
Also, free warning: tone down the general offensive / antagonistic talkings, both here and in other posts I've seen.
I think that's more of a case of not knowing exactly why you like that particular music or game, since you can't see anything that you can immediately identify as great, than you actually thinking they are bad.
You like them, you actually think they are good (for you), but you just don't really know exactly why.
MysticVegeta wrote:I just don't see how it's possible.
I don't like pop, or rap, or hiphop, or anything mainstream, I don't like the Wii U, or John Cena, or Essendon, or IGN, or Naruto.
I dislike pretty much everything that I think is bad.
It's not exactly a big mystery. You have guilty pleasure, nostalgia, and/or a bit of irony when it comes to enjoying things that might be bad.
I'm honestly in agreement with thatdbzguy (well, more or less) that Dragon Ball is bad; if someone were to ask me how not to tell a story, I'd hand them a Dragon Ball DVD. But I enjoy the hell out of it for both nostalgia and the fact that it has some charming saving graces in character personalities, a nifty art style and unique action.
Incidentally you said you don't like anything mainstream. It might not be on the forefront of popular culture, especially not today, but Dragon Ball Z is about as mainstream as anime gets.
I also agree with ErikB. As enjoyable as the series is, I can see why it gets the criticisms it gets. Toryiama even says in the BoG translations "If you could please enjoy that Dragon World without thinking about anything, I’ll be happy. " I mean is it really that good of a series if I have to turn my brain off to enjoy it?
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
Kid Buu wrote:I also agree with ErikB. As enjoyable as the series is, I can see why it gets the criticisms it gets. Toryiama even says in the BoG translations "If you could please enjoy that Dragon World without thinking about anything, I’ll be happy. " I mean is it really that good of a series if I have to turn my brain off to enjoy it?
Will you rate a comedy as bad or average, even if it makes you laugh like you've never laughed before, just because it didn't make you think a lot?
Dragon Ball is a action shonen manga, it wasn't made with the objective of making the reader think like it was a drama movie or whatever. Why would you consider it bad or even decrease its rating for not being something that isn't supposed to be? That's like criticizing a drama movie for not making you laugh very much... It wasn't supposed to.
Even the aspects that the series does excel at go downhill after a while. For example, I think the fight scenes peaked with the Saiyan arc and slowly got worse after that. Later arcs suffered a bit too much from one-sided battles IMO.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
I don't get how anyone can like anything they think is terrible..and then join a forum that loves it....
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't get how anyone can like anything they think is terrible..and then join a forum that loves it....
It's not that I hate it, except I can understand criticisms about the series from non-fan. Also to be fair I joined the forum in 2004, a time where I actually did think DBZ was the greatest thing ever made and no form of entertaining could beat it.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't get how anyone can like anything they think is terrible..and then join a forum that loves it....
It's not that I hate it, except I can understand criticisms about the series from non-fan. Also to be fair I joined the forum in 2004, a time where I actually did think DBZ was the greatest thing ever made and no form of entertaining could beat it.
I don't see guilty pleasures going as far to join a community that I would think are mostly die hard fans. I have some guilty pleasure and liking to Digimon...but I'd never join a forum of it.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Freeza Arc.
