Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[NitroEX]

Decided to give this film a chance and see it in a UK theatre yesterday. I really enjoyed Chis Ayer's performance as Freeza, he definitely carried this film by bringing so much personality and energy to his performance. It kinda felt like the film set him up as the protagonist as we followed his journey throughout. It almost made me feel sorry for him by the end when he was defeated but on the other hand there really was no compelling reason to root for Goku or Vegeta neither was there any real sense of tension throughout.

They made a big mistake by revealing Whis' timeshift ability right at the start because it just killed any reason for the audience to feel like this world is in danger. You already have the Senzu beans, Dragon Balls, OP Goku & Vegeta and now Whis can just suddenly snap his fingers and reverse any damage... how does this help the film at all? the DB world is already incredibly safe as it is and like I said, it kills any tension when you have these constant restart buttons that negate any negative consequences.

While on the subject of negatives, don't even get me started on the ham-fisted excuse they fed us for Gohan being so weak in the film, it just reeked of bullshit to any smart fan in the audience. If you've already established that Freeza has trained to be stronger or on par with Goku (which is itself a stretch...) then there's no reason to weaken the rest of your cast to further make them non issues. Speaking of weakened cast members... if you're going to have Piccolo be bested by a Freeza henchmen, at least try and build the henchmen up as a badass before hand... Much like with Gohan this constant demotion of the main cast just diminishes what appeal they had left and I really don't see the purpose behind it.

I got excited seeing Krillin form the Destructo disc/Kienzan only to be disappointed when he used it to drop a mountain on the Freeza henchmen and not dismember them like I first expected him to. At first I thought they did it to keep the 12A rating but then I remembered they seemed to have no problem showing Freeza being sliced up in the flashback. They were fighting aliens after all so you'd think they'd have the balls (no pun intended) to push the boundary on violence at least a little more than they did. In spire of this it that was still probably my favourite part of the film seeing them all fighting together like that, even if the animation was lackluster at points it was still unique enough from the series that I enjoyed it.

Overall I can't say I'm a fan of the film. The action lacked tension or clear purpose, Goku treats the end fight like a game (even offering to spare Freeza, again), the humour fell flat for me aside from a few jokes and in general it just came off as Freeza saga fan service which is fine for some people but I could do without it. If they make any sequels that are more along the lines of this and retreat old ground I definitely won't be spending any money on them.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Oh and Jaco fits so perfectly and naturally with the rest of the cast, it felt like he was a Z fighter from the very start! I totally understand now when on the Kanzenshuu podcast were they said he was obviously shoehorned in the movie but it didn't feel shoehorned, I totally get that now! When he first appeared on screen quite a few people were like "who is this" but towards the end of film whenever he popped up again a few people went "yes!" Made me so happy.

I am not sure what the replay value of the film will be like when watching it on my own at home, guess I'll find out next week, been reading a mixed response on the replay value some folks said it is not quite as good while others have said it was even better. Perhaps this will be one of those films better suited to watching it with a group of friends?

[Captain Space]

While on the subject of negatives, don't even get me started on the ham-fisted excuse they fed us for Gohan being so weak in the film, it just reeked of bullshit to any smart fan in the audience.

To be fair, "Gohan wasn't training so he's weaker than he was before" is hardly new nor is it unlikely.

[Blade]

While on the subject of negatives, don't even get me started on the ham-fisted excuse they fed us for Gohan being so weak in the film, it just reeked of bullshit to any smart fan in the audience.

To be fair, "Gohan wasn't training so he's weaker than he was before" is hardly new nor is it unlikely.

I think the main difference is that whenever his lack of training has been made an issue, it has usually just been a plot excuse to play on the idea of his latent potential to justify some sort of massive power-up.

In RoF, however, the excuse is purely to make him strong enough to be head and shoulders above the fodder, but nothing resembling a threat to Freeza.

[Captain Space]

I think the main difference is that whenever his lack of training has been made an issue, it has usually just been a plot excuse to play on the idea of his latent potential to justify some sort of massive power-up.

In RoF, however, the excuse is purely to make him strong enough to be head and shoulders above the fodder, but nothing resembling a threat to Freeza.

"whenever" is a bit of an exaggeration, that only happened once.

It's the exact same thing. Gohan doesn't train for a few years, ergo he gets weaker. Last time, he then also got a power-up--which was in no way related to his power loss at all.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

7 clips from RF to tide you guys until the Blu ray!
https://youtu.be/5Bat8jauqlk

[Gyt Kaliba]

Aw man, as soon as I saw one of the clips get to some of the gang fighting the soldiers, I was really hoping I'd get to see the Kuririn/Jaco bit. But ah well - less than a month to go now!

[NitroEX]

While on the subject of negatives, don't even get me started on the ham-fisted excuse they fed us for Gohan being so weak in the film, it just reeked of bullshit to any smart fan in the audience.

To be fair, "Gohan wasn't training so he's weaker than he was before" is hardly new nor is it unlikely.

I don't consider that to be the same thing at all. After the Cell games he had 7 years of peace and even then his power loss wasn't huge like it is here. The film makes it clear that he can turn Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2, just regular Super Saiyan. That's a huge downgrade in itself never mind the mysterious loss of his Ultimate power up. All it is is plot convenience to make him a non threat.

[Captain Space]

I don't consider that to be the same thing at all. After the Cell games he had 7 years of peace and even then his power loss wasn't huge like it is here. The film makes it clear that he can turn Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2, just regular Super Saiyan. That's a huge downgrade in itself never mind the mysterious loss of his Ultimate power up. All it is is plot convenience to make him a non threat.

This was still a few years (when you consider he was likely originally planned to be SSJ in BoG), and he already had difficulty actually using SSJ2 in the Buu arc, so he was heading that way. I see it as the ultimate/mystic thing eventually wore off, and he went back to exactly where his Buu saga self was (barely able to reach SSJ2), and then with a couple more years to degrade he slipped a bit further down.

Given that his full power was was 'above any henchmen but below Freeza', and Freeza had become unreasonably, nigh-unquantifiably strong for this movie...*shrug*...it could've, and probably would've, been written the exact same way if he was mystic or capable of SSJ2; they'd still have Freeza vastly outclass him to show how awesome the villain was. All that'd be different is his appearance. This is just what they thought the character would be like at this point.

(Is it a shame that Gohan isn't as big a deal any more? Yeah, sure. Should he become super-devoted to training? Not without significant character development, though it seems he's just started to get back into shape a few days before the battle or something so maybe the recent losses will provide that. But it's clear his heart isn't set on fighting so it's fine that he doesn't devote his life to it. With that said, should he go through the SSJG ritual if it's so easy? Yes, though maybe Super will elaborate and say an already-divine saiyan can't do it (and Vegeta's ritual used Tarble instead of Goku or something) to stop endless god-spam. But if it doesn't have a spam-filter then yeah they should give it to Gohan, it takes like five minutes and you can give him a few tries until he can absorb it or whatever, it'll take a day tops and hey, he's relevant again.)

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Okay, I can understand some negative reviews for this film but THIS one, ohohoho! No! This actually got me angry: http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oc ... -animation
"Trading-card universe"... Is this person fucking serious? This isn't even a review! It's just a paragraph of a guy ranting about how he dislikes "gotta catch em all" films which this movie CLEARLY wasn't about. Did this person even watch the film? Seriously, I actually cannot believe this review.

[Sora Saiyan]

Okay, I can understand some negative reviews for this film but THIS one, ohohoho! No! This actually got me angry: http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oc ... -animation
"Trading-card universe"... Is this person fucking serious? This isn't even a review! It's just a paragraph of a guy ranting about how he dislikes "gotta catch em all" films which this movie CLEARLY wasn't about. Did this person even watch the film? Seriously, I actually cannot believe this review.

Just read through it, and I most definitely agree with you. How can a site who's reviews get onto Rotten Tomatoes and the like type up such a dreadful and biased review. It's actually pissed me off a little. Surely there's gotta be a way to complain about it.

[BlackCatScott]

Agh. I hate to admit that's annoyed me. Clearly a person with no knowledge whatsoever on the series - but at least do a Google search prior to seeing a film you're being paid to review? This is one of the worst reviews I've ever seen. It's not even a review. It's a guy writing a couple of lines about how he has no time for Anime films. I wouldn't care if he gave it a thought and explained why he didn't like the film and how it could have been improved. Instead he just comes across completely ignorant.

"Trading card inspired"? Yeah...

[NitroEX]

Given that his full power was was 'above any henchmen but below Freeza', and Freeza had become unreasonably, nigh-unquantifiably strong for this movie...*shrug*...it could've, and probably would've, been written the exact same way if he was mystic or capable of SSJ2; they'd still have Freeza vastly outclass him to show how awesome the villain was. All that'd be different is his appearance. This is just what they thought the character would be like at this point.

If the outcome is always going to be the same regardless of his form then why make the creative decision to weaken Gohan in the first place? There was no evidence during EoZ to suggest that Gohan (with his potential unlocked) would become weaker or lose the form over time. Does Krillin or Master Roshi lose their power in times of peace despite showing no evidence of training? It doesn't look that way in ROF, so why does Gohan suddenly have to have his power syphoned off after having a child?

Keep in mind these films are heavily planned and thought over. A weak Gohan didn't just naturally appear in the film leaving Toei with the burden of explaining it. They obviously chose to strip him of mystic, go through the effort of colouring him SSJ and have him be one shot by Freeza (in his weakest form no less).

If the goal was to move Gohan aside to focus on Goku/Vegeta/Freeza love triangle then the solution was simple, have Gohan stay behind to protect his newborn baby that was established in the beginning of the film! They go out of their way to explain Trunk's absence from the fight (which was another disappointing aspect of the film) yet decide to drag along Gohan to be a punching bag (and choose to make him as weak as possible). It's things like this that get under my skin with the new material, they misuse these characters just because they can. I'm beginning to doubt whether Toriyama actually wrote this stuff because it's very reminiscent of GT in it's stupidity/negligence.

[Captain Space]

If the outcome is always going to be the same regardless of his form then why make the creative decision to weaken Gohan in the first place? There was no evidence during EoZ to suggest that Gohan (with his potential unlocked) would become weaker or lose the form over time. Does Krillin or Master Roshi lose their power in times of peace despite showing no evidence of training? It doesn't look that way in ROF, so why does Gohan suddenly have to have his power syphoned off after having a child?

They made that 'creative decision' because they saw the trend of Gohan getting weaker over time in the original series and decided to continue it. It made sense to them. There was no evidence either way in EoZ because Gohan never fought or showed any hint of fighting. Equally, there's no indication Roshi or Krillin don't train (Krillin temporarily stopped, but as of the Yo! Son Goku... special he's started back again and has had a few years to get back in the groove). You're taking things where there's no evidence one way or the other, and making them one-directional ("there's no evidence Gohan lost power, so he probably didn't" when there's no evidence he didn't either, "there's no evidence Roshi trained" when there's no evidence he didn't--and in fact an interview linked to the movie implied Roshi has indeed been training and that's why he was able to take out so many alien soldiers).

Keep in mind these films are heavily planned and thought over. A weak Gohan didn't just naturally appear in the film leaving Toei with the burden of explaining it. They obviously chose to strip him of mystic, go through the effort of colouring him SSJ and have him be one shot by Freeza (in his weakest form no less).

Again, Freeza was already ludicrously strong, they could have had him as strong as they wanted. It's not like they couldn't have had him effortlessly take out Gohan whatever level Gohan was at; they've been trying to revert to SSJ Gohan for a while now (early drafts of BoG, the SSJG ritual, and now in this movie), probably so that somebody uses the signature form since Goku and Vegeta are different colours now, and as I said, because that's just what they think would logically happen to the character over time.

Do you have to agree? Of course not, you're entirely free to think this is far too steep a decline, but it's not like they did this as a desperate scramble to make Gohan weak enough for Freeza to beat since Freeza's strength was entirely within their control anyway.

If the goal was to move Gohan aside to focus on Goku/Vegeta/Freeza love triangle then the solution was simple, have Gohan stay behind to protect his newborn baby that was established in the beginning of the film! They go out of their way to explain Trunk's absence from the fight (which was another disappointing aspect of the film) yet decide to drag along Gohan to be a punching bag (and choose to make him as weak as possible). It's things like this that get under my skin with the new material, they misuse these characters just because they can. I'm beginning to doubt whether Toriyama actually wrote this stuff because it's very reminiscent of GT in it's stupidity/negligence.

That first part is an entirely valid point, and while logically they should take Gohan with them to help, it makes about as much sense as leaving 18 behind (little to none) so whatever, sure, that could work. However, I disagree that he was dragged along to be a punching bag. He was very clearly the most effective against Freeza's soldiers, having some really cool moments and supposedly being able to take out the whole army himself if he wanted, not to mention one-shotting Shisami.

He was taken out ridiculously quickly by the main villain, of course, and whether narratively it would've been more satisfying for him to do better is an entirely subjective thing, but saying that was the only thing he was there for is really underselling his performance in the prior, extremely cool pitched mass battle that takes up a significant portion of the movie and is one of its main selling-points. I mean, would you say that Trunks or Piccolo was just "dragged along to be a punching-bag" at the Cell Games?

[Blade]

Okay, I can understand some negative reviews for this film but THIS one, ohohoho! No! This actually got me angry: http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oc ... -animation
"Trading-card universe"... Is this person fucking serious? This isn't even a review! It's just a paragraph of a guy ranting about how he dislikes "gotta catch em all" films which this movie CLEARLY wasn't about. Did this person even watch the film? Seriously, I actually cannot believe this review.

I think the only thing about that review that draws any ire from me is the slightly racist 'aw, so those Japanese are still making animation?' tone.

As ignorant as the reviewer seems to both the franchise and, apparently, the fact that lipsync isn't reanimated for dubbing, I'd say he's not too far from the mark to call the whole thing a cash-grab.

[Bullza]

All movies are cash grabs.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

All movies are cash grabs.

Eh, you can argue against that. There are movies that exist purely for the sake of art and entertainment without having the audience to pay for the experience, but I can see where you're coming from. One of the things that frustrates me with the review is that the critic is calling the film a "cash grab" as a way of putting a negative on the film, which isn't fair at all in a film review. That's not reviewing the film itself, instead he's just pointing out that the film's a "cash grab" for being released in UK theatres... which is essentially the same case for any film being released in theatres.

Where I'm getting at is that it is a poorly written review. I would be totally okay with the review if the critic justified why he gave the film such a poor score and if he had some sort of understanding of what exactly he was talking about when it came to the series. But at the end of the day the film has made over $60 million and the majority of fans love it, and that's all that really matters.

[ekrolo2]

All movies are cash grabs.

Eh, you can argue against that. There are movies that exist purely for the sake of art and entertainment without having the audience to pay for the experience, but I can see where you're coming from. One of the things that frustrates me with the review is that the critic is calling the film a "cash grab" as a way of putting a negative on the film, which isn't fair at all in a film review. That's not reviewing the film itself, instead he's just pointing out that the film's a "cash grab" for being released in UK theatres... which is essentially the same case for any film being released in theatres.

Where I'm getting at is that it is a poorly written review. I would be totally okay with the review if the critic justified why he gave the film such a poor score and if he had some sort of understanding of what exactly he was talking about when it came to the series. But at the end of the day the film has made over $60 million and the majority of fans love it, and that's all that really matters.

I gotta agree with this, it's a bad review and not the kind this piece of garbage actually deserves either.

[Gaffer Tape]

I agree. It's a terrible, poorly-informed review consisting of nothing but criticisms that are not about the film at all or even the franchise it is from. In fact, I think the only thing that's actually about the film is the mention of the 'F' song, so chances are he just watched the trailer. It's really embarrassing to read. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but this is just such a non-sequitur it's almost hilarious. "What did I think about the new Dragon Ball Z movie? I have no idea, but I hate me those Yu-Gi-Ers! Cards annoy me. And I don't like this film. It was about glowing orbs, I think." I mean, hell, I hate the film, and even I don't think this is a fair review of it!

[NitroEX]

You're taking things where there's no evidence one way or the other, and making them one-directional ("there's no evidence Gohan lost power, so he probably didn't" when there's no evidence he didn't either, "there's no evidence Roshi trained" when there's no evidence he didn't--and in fact an interview linked to the movie implied Roshi has indeed been training and that's why he was able to take out so many alien soldiers).

Aren't you accusing me of doing the same thing you're doing? Like you said, there isn't any evidence to suggest these characters did or didn't train, so why automatically assume Gohan couldn't possibly have trained while Krillin and Roshi did? The fact that Gohan didn't train after the Cell arc, and the resulting outcome of that is reason enough to wake the character out of stagnation, not to repeat history. Hell, he even has a baby and wife to protect now so you'd assume that would be enough motivation for any character.

The superfluous stuff like character interviews came after the film was made so I don't see why that's evidence of anything. They're just part of Toei's creative decision making for the film... which I'm not a fan of.

Again, Freeza was already ludicrously strong, they could have had him as strong as they wanted. It's not like they couldn't have had him effortlessly take out Gohan whatever level Gohan was at... and as I said, because that's just what they think would logically happen to the character over time.

Do you have to agree? Of course not, you're entirely free to think this is far too steep a decline, but it's not like they did this as a desperate scramble to make Gohan weak enough for Freeza to beat since Freeza's strength was entirely within their control anyway.

I feel like you're missing the bigger picture here. I personally don't care if his Ultimate form would have been enough to stand up to Freeza or not, that's not really the issue. The issue is; if it doesn't matter what form he's in anyway (because Freeza is so "ludicrously strong"), why even bother weakening him in the first place?

Picture the same scenario, Gohan's in his ultimate state, Freeza transforms to final form (doesn't even have to be golden Freeza) and then knocks out Gohan. All of a sudden this situation is not only more plausible to the audience but it doesn't require you to weaken one of your last few relevant characters.

I don't see the purpose in weakening him to SSJ and having him be swept aside by Freeza's weakest form. It's a step too far in the wrong direction. Judging by the way Super's going this constant demotion and humiliation of Gohan seems to be a trend over at Toei. I don't expect it to change anytime soon but I can express my dissatisfaction with it. It baffles me that people feel the need to defend this sort of bad decision making.

He was taken out ridiculously quickly by the main villain, of course, and whether narratively it would've been more satisfying for him to do better is an entirely subjective thing, but saying that was the only thing he was there for is really underselling his performance in the prior, extremely cool pitched mass battle that takes up a significant portion of the movie and is one of its main selling-points. I mean, would you say that Trunks or Piccolo was just "dragged along to be a punching-bag" at the Cell Games?

The prior sequence with the Freeza henchmen was great, I agree. What came immediately afterwards though? Poorly handled in my view.

As for Trunks and Piccolo, they both served a narrative purpose in the Cell games, so no, I wouldn't call them punching bags. In fact I think they came off looking very strong especially in the anime version of the Cell jr fight. If anyone was a punching bag at the Cell games I think it was Vegeta but even so he had a redeeming moment when he tried to avenge Trunks' death. He also played a role in killing Cell so it's not the same as Gohan who gets knocked out and gets to do nothing afterward. You could argue that in ROF Gohan was needed to save Piccolo from Shisami but does anyone really believe Piccolo couldn't beat him on his own?