Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

[Hitiro]

Except suppressed Cell was not equal to SSJ Goku--he was more powerful. Hence Cell's statements toward the end of he and Goku's battle:

DBZ:207
Context: Just before Goku surrenders to Cell
Cell: "You've lost a lot of strength... Have one of your senzu, Son Goku... It'll make a more entertaining battle [...] What's wrong? Does your pride prevent you from taking the senzu? I've spent so much of my energy, if you come back up to full power your chances will increase... Slightly. Come on. I want to have more fun!"

Despite being in a significantly weakened state, Cell was still confident that he'd be able to defeat a full power SSJ Goku--to the point that he was actually trolling Goku to take a senzu. If that doesn't suggest that suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku, I don't know what does. /shrug

Not really. Cell was weakened, yes. But he still had whatever Ki he had suppressed in reserve. For example you can look at it sort of like this:

Suppressed Cell: 50%
SSJ Goku: 100%

Weakened Suppressed Cell: 25% Energy in reserve: 50%
Weakened SSJ Goku: 50%

Now if Cell un-suppresses himself and accesses his remaining reserve of Energy he can still beat Goku. Goku and Cell both thought evenly and lost Ki. But Goku comes off worse because he has no energy in reserve due to him being at full power. So obviously Cell is going to come off better than SSJ Goku despite them being a fairly even match.

[Galan007]

Not really. Cell was weakened, yes. But he still had whatever Ki he had suppressed in reserve. For example you can look at it sort of like this:

Suppressed Cell: 50%
SSJ Goku: 100%

Weakened Suppressed Cell: 25% Energy in reserve: 50%
Weakened SSJ Goku: 50%

Now if Cell un-suppresses himself and accesses his remaining reserve of Energy he can still beat Goku. Goku and Cell both thought evenly and lost Ki. But Goku comes off worse because he has no energy in reserve due to him being at full power. So obviously Cell is going to come off better than SSJ Goku despite them being a fairly even match.

I think that's a stretch, personally.

And as Super Saiyan Turlast x4 mentioned: we also need to take Vegeta's statement into consideration:

Context: While watching SSJ Goku fight a suppressed Cell
Vegeta: "It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…"

That, coupled with a significantly weakened Cell trolling Goku to eat a senzu just to give him a better fight, coupled with Goku outright admitting inferiority to Cell and surrendering, should suffice as proof that suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku. I don't really even see how it's debatable, tbh.

[Hitiro]

I think that's a stretch, personally.

And as Super Saiyan Turlast x4 mentioned: we also need to take Vegeta's statement into consideration:

Context: While watching SSJ Goku fight a suppressed Cell
Vegeta: "It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…"

That, coupled with a significantly weakened Cell trolling Goku to eat a senzu just to give him a better fight, coupled with Goku outright admitting inferiority to Cell and surrendering, should suffice as proof that suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku. I don't really even see how it's debatable, tbh.

This comment can easily be taken as despite Goku and suppressed Cell having a fairly even fight it is still to the advantage of Cell because he is suppressed. Of course Goku is going to admit his inferiority to an enemy who is quite possibly double his strength at his maximum power. How can you say Goku is saying he is inferior to suppressed Cell's power and not to Cell in general? Does Goku say something like "Even though you're holding back you're still stronger than me."? Because unless Goku says something like this there is no proof either way that you are right or wrong. It is open to interpretation. Reading the fight you can see both are having a fairly even match. Cell may have the advantage but there is no debating that they are both trading attacks. So the fight is fairly even from what we see.

[Galan007]

I think that's a stretch, personally.

And as Super Saiyan Turlast x4 mentioned: we also need to take Vegeta's statement into consideration:

Context: While watching SSJ Goku fight a suppressed Cell
Vegeta: "It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…"

That, coupled with a significantly weakened Cell trolling Goku to eat a senzu just to give him a better fight, coupled with Goku outright admitting inferiority to Cell and surrendering, should suffice as proof that suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku. I don't really even see how it's debatable, tbh.

This comment can easily be taken as despite Goku and suppressed Cell having a fairly even fight it is still to the advantage of Cell because he is suppressed. Of course Goku is going to admit his inferiority to an enemy who is quite possibly double his strength at his maximum power. How can you say Goku is saying he is inferior to suppressed Cell's power and not to Cell in general? Does Goku say something like "Even though you're holding back you're still stronger than me."? Because unless Goku says something like this there is no proof either way that you are right or wrong. It is open to interpretation. Reading the fight you can see both are having a fairly even match. Cell may have the advantage but there is no debating that they are both trading attacks. So the fight is fairly even from what we see.

Again, I think you're stretching things quite a bit. Vegeta said Cell was stronger. A significantly weakened Cell said he could still could have beat full power SSJ Goku. Goku outright admitted that Cell was better than himself.

Not interested in continuing the discussion, though. Your opinion isn't going to change, and neither will mine.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'm not sure Goku knows Cell was suppressed at that point. He says he wasn't sure if Cell was fighting for real when Gohan asks. Goku probably assumed that was Cell's full-power.

[Hitiro]

Again, I think you're stretching things quite a bit. Vegeta said Cell was stronger. A significantly weakened Cell said he could still could have beat full power SSJ Goku. Goku outright admitted that Cell was better than himself.

Not interested in continuing the discussion, though. Your opinion isn't going to change, and neither will mine.

I would just like to know why it is a stretch. Vegeta said Cell was superior. But can you honestly tell me he wasn't speaking in general and not talking about him being suppressed? A significantly weakened Cell said he can still beat Goku, yes. But because Cell was suppressing his power he still had whatever energy he had suppressed in reserve. So why is this a factor? I mean take a look at this comment.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P7.3-5
Context: after Cell blocks Goku’s attacks with a barrier
Bulma: “Wha—aat, that was so close! He was just a step away!”
Kame-sennin: “…No he wasn’t…It’s true that it looks like they’re having a good match, but…unlike Goku, Cell still has room for composure left…[ ] ...Goku can’t win…What’s more, to me it looks as if he knows that but is still fighting…I don’t know what he’s thinking…”

Kame-sen'nin is practically confirming Cell had power in reserve. So whatever Cell lost during his fight with Goku could made up with whatever energy he had in reserve. He even practically confirms that while the match looks even it doesn't matter because Goku is the one fighting all-out while Cell is fighting suppressed so Cell has the advantage in the fight.

And yes, we already confirmed Goku said Cell was better than him. But was Goku talking about in general or was he talking purely about suppressed Cell? Can you prove that Goku was talking about suppressed Cell? Because the Z-senshi can tell if someone is holding back.

I'm not sure Goku knows Cell was suppressed at that point. He says he wasn't sure if Cell was fighting for real when Gohan asks. Goku probably assumed that was Cell's full-power.

I take Goku's comment as him not knowing how much Cell was holding back. Like "I don't know how hard Cell was fighting. But I was going all-out." I mean all throughout the manga we see that characters know if someone is holding back. Goku had no clue as to how close Cell was to fighting all-out. So he can't make a statement on how much Cell is holding back or not. While Goku can't tell how much Cell is holding back he knows that Cell has energy in reserve. A couple of characters confirm this. Vegeta and Kame-sen'nin. So why would Goku not know that Cell had more power to dish out if these two characters did? PIS I guess?

[Galan007]

I would just like to know why it is a stretch. Vegeta said Cell was superior. But can you honestly tell me he wasn't speaking in general and not talking about him being suppressed?

It seems like a stretch to me, because it seems like you have it set in your mind that suppressed Cell=SSJ Goku, so you're doing anything you can to discredit the in-universe statements to the contrary. That's why I was just going to let this go--your opinion isn't going to change and neither is mine, so there's just no use discussing this further.

Anyway, based on the battle Vegeta was watching, he made the observation that Cell was always one-or-two steps ahead of Goku... And Cell was suppressed at the time. So from Vegeta's standpoint: suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku.

[Hitiro]

I would just like to know why it is a stretch. Vegeta said Cell was superior. But can you honestly tell me he wasn't speaking in general and not talking about him being suppressed?

It seems like a stretch to me, because it seems like you have it set in your mind that suppressed Cell=SSJ Goku, so you're doing anything you can to discredit the in-universe statements to the contrary. That's why I was just going to let this go--your opinion isn't going to change and neither is mine, so there's just no use discussing this further.

Anyway, based on the battle Vegeta was watching, he made the observation that Cell was always one-or-two steps ahead of Goku... And Cell was suppressed at the time. So from Vegeta's standpoint: suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku.

It's no more a stretch than your opinion really. I'm fine to stop discussing this. But please don't discredit my opinion because you think it is wrong. I don't say yours is a stretch when we can see from the battle they are pretty much even. And as I said earlier Vegeta could just be talking about Cell in general. Not suppressed Cell. Because even if suppressed Cell = SSJ Goku then Vegeta would still say that Cell is 1 or 2 steps ahead due to Cell only being suppressed while Goku is using 100%. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. But please don't insult my opinion by saying its a stretch. It's a possibility just like your opinion is.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I take Goku's comment as him not knowing how much Cell was holding back. Like "I don't know how hard Cell was fighting. But I was going all-out." I mean all throughout the manga we see that characters know if someone is holding back. Goku had no clue as to how close Cell was to fighting all-out. So he can't make a statement on how much Cell is holding back or not. While Goku can't tell how much Cell is holding back he knows that Cell has energy in reserve. A couple of characters confirm this. Vegeta and Kame-sen'nin. So why would Goku not know that Cell had more power to dish out if these two characters did? PIS I guess?

I honestly don't have an issue with Goku knowing or having an idea that Cell still had a lot of power he had yet to reveal. The only issue I see with this is that it makes even more unlikely he was expecting Super Saiyan Gohan to defeat Cell. Perhaps he thought Gohan would be able to push Cell to power-up more, then maybe Cell would overpower Gohan and hopefully end up bringing out his hidden powers as well. In the end, I think Goku's entire hopes on defeating Cell was Super Saiyan 2, just like he says.

[Hitiro]

I honestly don't have an issue with Goku knowing or having an idea that Cell still had a lot of power he had yet to reveal. The only issue I see with this is that it makes even more unlikely he was expecting Super Saiyan Gohan to defeat Cell. Perhaps he thought Gohan would be able to push Cell to power-up more, then maybe Cell would overpower Gohan and hopefully end up bringing out his hidden powers as well. In the end, I think Goku's entire hopes on defeating Cell was Super Saiyan 2, just like he says.

I see it more like Goku thought Cell had more power in reserve but not enough to overpower Gohan and even if he did then Gohan's rage would make up for the difference. But that is my opinion. Gohan managed to knock Cell on its butt when Cell only a few moments ago said he was going to go all out in speed at least. Which leads me to believe if Gohan tackled the fight with determination and wanted to defeat Cell he could have kept up with him.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, that's perfectly reasonable. I'm sorta disappointed we never saw what Super Saiyan Gohan was really capable of.

[Hitiro]

Yeah, that's perfectly reasonable. I'm sorta disappointed we never saw what Super Saiyan Gohan was really capable of.

It is a shame. I see people say Gohan isn't very in-character during this fight. But I think it's fair the way he acts in this scene. The fate of the whole world is thrust upon him at such a young age. Up until this point he has always had allies to help him fight but now he is alone. And he has never actually taken a life before but now his father is asking him to do that to save the world.

[rereboy]

Yeah, that's perfectly reasonable. I'm sorta disappointed we never saw what Super Saiyan Gohan was really capable of.

It is a shame. I see people say Gohan isn't very in-character during this fight. But I think it's fair the way he acts in this scene. The fate of the whole world is thrust upon him at such a young age. Up until this point he has always had allies to help him fight but now he is alone. And he has never actually taken a life before but now his father is asking him to do that to save the world.

He has killed before with no regrets or hesitation (the Freeza goons that wrecked their Namekian ship). And he has fought and attacked his enemies without hesitation to save his friends, giving it all he had, not caring how much stronger the enemies were than him and not caring that no one else was able to save his friends besides him (for example, when he saved Piccolo from third from Freeza). So, not really. But this is offtopic.

[Hitiro]

He has killed before with no regrets or hesitation (the Freeza goons that wrecked their Namekian ship). And he has fought and attacked his enemies without hesitation to save his friends, giving it all he had, not caring how much stronger the enemies were than him and not caring that no one else was able to save his friends besides him (for example, when he saved Piccolo from third from Freeza). So, not really. But this is offtopic.

All the times he attacked without hesitation for his friends he was in a rage though. I forgot about the Freeza goons but were they actually killed or just knocked out? I know they ended up in the water too. But I don't think they delivered killing blows.

[Galan007]

But please don't insult my opinion by saying its a stretch.

Good grief. Do I believe your opinion is a stretch? Yes. Should you take that as an insult of any kind? No. This is a discussion forum. We are having a discussion. I courteously told you why I felt like your opinion was a stretch, and you responded in kind. Heck, I even opted to immediately end the discussion when I saw that we weren't going to see eye-to-eye on the topic(I loathe circular debates.) Not sure why you took such a passive statement as though it were some sort of personal 'attack', but that obviously isn't what was intended.

[Hitiro]

Good grief. Do I believe your opinion is a stretch? Yes. Should you take that as an insult of any kind? No. This is a discussion forum. We are having a discussion. I courteously told you why I felt like your opinion was a stretch, and you responded in kind. Heck, I even opted to immediately end the discussion when I saw that we weren't going to see eye-to-eye on the topic(I loathe circular debates.) Not sure why you took such a passive statement as though it were some sort of personal 'attack', but that obviously isn't what was intended.

You didn't tell me why my opinion was a stretch really. All you did was point out points you deem back up your argument but are completely open to interpretation and say that my opinion is a stretch. It is as much a possibility that the characters are talking about Cell in general rather than Cell while suppressed. Because we see through the entire fight that the fight is even and the only characters to comment on the fight are saying Cell is stronger than Goku, but we get no context in what they mean when they say this because Goku was actually holding his own against Cell. And nothing disproves that.

I don't mind if you had a legitimate reason for calling it a stretch. Like if Goku wasn't actually putting up as decent a fight, then yes, what I'm saying could be a stretch. But unless you have a concrete reason to suggest this then it is quite offensive. It seems as if you're trying to passively belittle my opinion and make yours out to be more correct. The lines are completely open to interpretation and at this point both our opinions have equal value. Which is fine. And I'm fine with you calling mine a stretch if you can actually prove that it is. But what you've said seems a stretch can easily be seen my way as well because these lines are completely open to interpretation.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kaioshin's comment:

Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

What comes to mind when reading that?

[Galan007]

You didn't tell me why my opinion was a stretch really. All you did was point out points you deem back up your argument but are completely open to interpretation and say that my opinion is a stretch. It is as much a possibility that the characters are talking about Cell in general rather than Cell while suppressed. Because we see through the entire fight that the fight is even and the only characters to comment on the fight are saying Cell is stronger than Goku, but we get no context in what they mean when they say this because Goku was actually holding his own against Cell. And nothing disproves that.

I don't mind if you had a legitimate reason for calling it a stretch. Like if Goku wasn't actually putting up as decent a fight, then yes, what I'm saying could be a stretch. But unless you have a concrete reason to suggest this then it is quite offensive. It seems as if you're trying to passively belittle my opinion and make yours out to be more correct. The lines are completely open to interpretation and at this point both our opinions have equal value. Which is fine. And I'm fine with you calling mine a stretch if you can actually prove that it is. But what you've said seems a stretch can easily be seen my way as well because these lines are completely open to interpretation.

The difference is that I could care less if you call my opinion a stretch... It doesn't offend me on a personal level whatsoever. Now if you called me a "stupid f*cking idiot", I might have a problem with it.

Like I said, though: it wasn't meant as personal attack in the slightest. Never thought in a million years that someone would be offended by their opinion being called "a stretch", or else I wouldn't have said it to begin with.

[Hitiro]

The difference is that I could care less if you call my opinion a stretch... It doesn't offend me on a personal level whatsoever. Now if you called me a "stupid f*cking idiot", I might have a problem with it.

Like I said, though: it wasn't meant as personal attack in the slightest. Never thought in a million years that someone would be offended by their opinion being called "a stretch", or else I wouldn't have said it to begin with.

I just get irritated when people just make accusations that don't make sense. Like I said, unless there is something I am missing from everything we have covered that could make my opinion seem a stretch then there is no reason for it to be considered as such. All the lines we see are pretty much open to interpretation. I'm fine with my opinion being called a stretch if there is something to back it up. But as far as I can see Goku is holding his own against Cell and the comments made by the other characters never suggest they are just speaking about suppressed Cell. You are fine to interpret it like that. It's not like you couldn't be right about them just talking about suppressed Cell because the way they say these lines doesn't suggest they are talking about Cell in general either. Which is why the lines are open to interpretation. And I would whole heartedly agree with you that my opinion is a stretch if Goku didn't put up a fight like he did and the comments remained the same. But as far as I'm concerned neither of us have suggested opinions that are a stretch.

[Galan007]

But as far as I'm concerned neither of us have suggested opinions that are a stretch.

And I'm fine with that.