"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Noah]

17 wasn't brought back by popular demand, he isn't that popular in Japan. From the 2004 poll:
[spoiler]Best Characters
1.Son Goku: 6,235 points
2.Vegeta: 2,527 points
3.Son Gohan: 2,131 points
4.Trunks: 1,487 points
5.Piccolo: 1,176 points
6.Son Goten: 798 points
7.Kuririn: 736 points
8.Majin Buu: 421 points
9.Freeza: 324 points
10.Android No.18: 204 points
11.Mister Satan: 201 points
12.Karin-sama: 185
13.Kame-sennin: 172 points
14.Cell: 170 points
15.Yamcha: 163 points
16.Tenshinhan: 125
17.Bulma: 112 points
18.Android No.17: 98 points
19.Yajirobe: 93 points
20.Videl: 86 points[/spoiler]

Why people keep using this old poll as argument? I mean it's like this remained exactly the same in thirteen years?

I think it's worse than still thinking Toriyama 6-10-15 "scale" still applies to the series.

[omaro34]

Wasn't going to continue the discussion but then I realized I somehow missed this post

There have been other Dragon Ball stuff before Super. We had the 2008 special which brought the cast back, which focused heavily on the Saiyans. We then got EOB which was about Super Saiyan Bardock. We then got an OVA of Destroy all Saiyans. We finally got Battle of Gods, both the original and the final version focused heavily on Saiyans to the point of promoting them to godhood. Then we got Resurrection 'F', which gave focused to Freeza, Goku, and Vegeta. Nothing before Super pushed anything but the Saiyans. Vegeta being stuck as Super Saiyan 2 is a minor thing considering.

Super does used power level consistency despite popular belief. Which is why you don't have stuff like Roshi fighting Hit or Piccolo fighting anyone mid-tier (by mid-tier I mean someone around Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta's level). And, no offense, but we always get the 'maybe next arc' with Piccolo and Piccolo didn't even want to train three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber with Goku and Vegeta. If Piccolo isn't do anything in a tournament where there should be plenty of people within his weight class or can fight by outsmarting them (like Roshi and Krillin), I don't see much hope for him.

The specials that came before BOG more or less used the tone left by the Buu arc, and yes, that's the arc where he got left in the dust by the saiyans hard. Bardock being the legendary SSJ was really the most daring they had been since GT, and it still didn't do anything to disrupt the status quo left by the ending of DB.

And as far as the "maybe next arc" hopefulness goes - what's wrong with that? 17 got brought back, probably due to popular demand (and even if not, it was still unexpected). If Mai - friggin' Mai - can be plucked out of the depths of irrelevancy and made love interest of one of the most popular characters of the franchise, I think anything can happen.

17 wasn't brought back by popular demand, he isn't that popular in Japan. From the 2004 poll:

Best Characters
1.Son Goku: 6,235 points
2.Vegeta: 2,527 points
3.Son Gohan: 2,131 points
4.Trunks: 1,487 points
5.Piccolo: 1,176 points
6.Son Goten: 798 points
7.Kuririn: 736 points
8.Majin Buu: 421 points
9.Freeza: 324 points
10.Android No.18: 204 points
11.Mister Satan: 201 points
12.Karin-sama: 185
13.Kame-sennin: 172 points
14.Cell: 170 points
15.Yamcha: 163 points
16.Tenshinhan: 125
17.Bulma: 112 points
18.Android No.17: 98 points
19.Yajirobe: 93 points
20.Videl: 86 points

He was brought back because Toriyama wanted him back. As for Mai, she was slowly brought back along with the rest of the Pilaf Gang with the Dragon Ball revival. And as I pointed out, if Piccolo at this time where there are plenty of people within his weight class that he can fight still can't get scene time, there doesn't paint a bright future for him outside of being Gohan's teacher.

Question: Trunks is the fourth most popular, is it Kid Trunks or FT Trunks from Cell arc?

[namekiansaiyan]

Question: Trunks is the fourth most popular, is it Kid Trunks or FT Trunks from Cell arc?

It is both put together.

[omaro34]

Question: Trunks is the fourth most popular, is it Kid Trunks or FT Trunks from Cell arc?

It is both put together.

Because I consider them different characters. Completely different upbringings and circumstances they had to go through, and that means they have different personalities. Kid Trunks is very spoiled compared to his future counterpart.

[omaro34]

All I'm going to say to the discussion above is that nothing is set in stone in the DB world and it's up to the author to decide who gets what and how much. There is enough outcry among the fans for the writers to consider a power-up for Piccolo, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't limit themselves with "only saiyans have true potential" if they really wanted to make him stronger. Either way, from what I remember the average namekian warrior was stronger than the average saiyan (like Radditz) so there's that.

Well, fans have been outcrying for decades and yet Piccolo is relatively low power-wise despite the boost he got his saga and the U6 Namekians despite being the last men standing doesn't seem to inspire much confident in Champa.

This is not saying that only Saiyans should get power-ups, but they seemed to be the only characters to get giant spikes, which I think where a lot of the resentment towards Kale and Cali come from.

Who knows, maybe there will be a plot twist. Piccolo and Gohan defeats U6 Namekians and when they are about to be eliminated hence universe six getting erased, Piccolo has a change of heart and doesn't want to do it. He all of sudden has this desire to find out more about his race, and one of the Namekians promises him that if they spare them, he would get a chance to visit Universe 6 Namek, just like Vegeta will go to the Saiyan home planet in universe 6. The bigger Namekian gets eliminated and the one that looks like him in a last ditch effort fuses with Piccolo, increasing his strength dramatically. Universe six is therefore saved for now because if Seonal is fused with Piccolo, he is not technically eliminated.

One can only dream and ponder.

[namekiansaiyan]

Who knows, maybe there will be a plot twist. Piccolo and Gohan defeats U6 Namekians and when they are about to be eliminated hence universe six getting erased, Piccolo has a change of heart and doesn't want to do it. He all of sudden has this desire to find out more about his race, and one of the Namekians promises him that if they spare them, he would get a chance to visit Universe 6 Namek, just like Vegeta will go to the Saiyan home planet in universe 6. The bigger Namekian gets eliminated and the one that looks like him in a last ditch effort fuses with Piccolo, increasing his strength dramatically. Universe six is therefore saved for now because if Seonal is fused with Piccolo, he is not technically eliminated.

One can only dream and ponder.

If would be weird if there is no twist as if this is just a standard fight with nothing special then it would be a bit of a crap way for Universe 6 to go when they just had a fusion that needed Ultra Instinct Goku to beat it.

If there is no twist then I suppose that is just the structure of a battle royale and any fight can happen at any time.

When Saonel and Pilina eventually go Piccolo better get the final hit.

[Michsi]

Except in the case of Mai, Toriyama said he made her Trunks' love interest just to writer some romance. So that was in the cards since Battle of Gods.

The reason is irrelevant, fact is that he chose to use a character that hadn't been seen since the Piccolo Arc and give her so much importance in the Future Trunks arc. He didn't go "well, Mai barely was a character before and it just doesn't make sense to create this deep connection between her and Trunks." Anything goes.

Toriyama still likes Piccolo enough to used him in some way, but Piccolo has almost no important story role, except for exposing Frost as a cheater and getting Gohan back in shape.

Would you say that he's been giving more and more to do? He was only a spectator in BOG, barely did anything in ROF, had been given a fighting role in the Champa arc - Future arc was a break- and here he is in the TOP having passed the half hour mark. Many thought he wouldn't even last ten minutes. I feel like he's been gradually given more and more.

Having a lot of characters should make it easier for him to shine since you have so many characters you can used for him like Krillin and even Roshi. And he took out the second strongest, which is all assumption btw, in an universe regarded as fodder. Only one fighter really stood out and Gohan took that guy.

It's still something, regarding that he did it with far more ease than Gohan did. And I'm going to repeat myself here, arm jokes aside, 106 was for him. Only really bad for Gohan.

[HeroR]

Except in the case of Mai, Toriyama said he made her Trunks' love interest just to writer some romance. So that was in the cards since Battle of Gods.

The reason is irrelevant, fact is that he chose to use a character that hadn't been seen since the Piccolo Arc and give her so much importance in the Future Trunks arc. He didn't go "well, Mai barely was a character before and it just doesn't make sense to create this deep connection between her and Trunks." Anything goes.

Toriyama still likes Piccolo enough to used him in some way, but Piccolo has almost no important story role, except for exposing Frost as a cheater and getting Gohan back in shape.

Would you say that he's been giving more and more to do? He was only a spectator in BOG, barely did anything in ROF, had been given a fighting role in the Champa arc - Future arc was a break- and here he is in the TOP having passed the half hour mark. Many thought he wouldn't even last ten minutes. I feel like he's been gradually given more and more.

Having a lot of characters should make it easier for him to shine since you have so many characters you can used for him like Krillin and even Roshi. And he took out the second strongest, which is all assumption btw, in an universe regarded as fodder. Only one fighter really stood out and Gohan took that guy.

It's still something, regarding that he did it with far more ease than Gohan did. And I'm going to repeat myself here, arm jokes aside, 106 was for him. Only really bad for Gohan.

“Anything goes” isn’t really an argument since it’s base on guessing.

Piccolo, no. He has actually gotten less to do. He tried to fight Beerus, fought Freeza’s soldiers, got one match in the Champa Saga which he lost, then won, and then Vegeta forced him to forfeit. And despite Piccolo still being around, he hasn’t done anything. Tien still has more KOs than him despite Tien being gone since 106. He hasn’t even gotten a scene by himself since Gohan is always around.

Gohan fought a tougher opponent than Piccolo, so eased doesn’t matter in this context. And 106 was bad for both Piccolo and Gohan. They got pinned down, did nothing against the sniper, and Piccolo was a meat shield.

[namekiansaiyan]

Would you say that he's been giving more and more to do? He was only a spectator in BOG, barely did anything in ROF, had been given a fighting role in the Champa arc - Future arc was a break- and here he is in the TOP having passed the half hour mark. Many thought he wouldn't even last ten minutes. I feel like he's been gradually given more and more.

That is one of the most stupidest thing people have said regarding Piccolo. That was not going to happen to him.

Having a lot of characters should make it easier for him to shine since you have so many characters you can used for him like Krillin and even Roshi. And he took out the second strongest, which is all assumption btw, in an universe regarded as fodder. Only one fighter really stood out and Gohan took that guy.

It's still something, regarding that he did it with far more ease than Gohan did. And I'm going to repeat myself here, arm jokes aside, 106 was for him. Only really bad for Gohan.

If Episode 118 wants to be remembered in a good way then it needs no arm nonsense unless it is like what Piccolo done to Gohan in episode 88.

[Michsi]

“Anything goes” isn’t really an argument since it’s base on guessing.

I'm gonna have to counter that with a "duh." But anything is possible. I'm well aware of the low probability, but there is nothing saying it will never happen.

Piccolo, no. He has actually gotten less to do. He tried to fight Beerus, fought Freeza’s soldiers, got one match in the Champa Saga which he lost, then won, and then Vegeta forced him to forfeit. And despite Piccolo still being around, he hasn’t done anything. Tien still has more KOs than him despite Tien being gone since 106. He hasn’t even gotten a scene by himself since Gohan is always around.

Gohan fought a tougher opponent than Piccolo, so eased doesn’t matter in this context. And 106 was bad for both Piccolo and Gohan. They got pinned down, did nothing against the sniper, and Piccolo was a meat shield.

I guess we just evaluate performance differently then. I liked seeing Piccolo analyze and think his way through the problem. It was Tenshinhan's episode, so it's not like they could've defeated the opponent in his place, but what he got to do was good. Except sacrifice part, but I still say that was on Gohan.

If Episode 118 wants to be remembered in a good way then it needs no arm nonsense unless it is like what Piccolo done to Gohan in episode 88.

I'm sick of namekian limbs flying everywhere, but it seems they use them to sneak in serious "battle damage" which they can't show on characters that bleed red.

[TheOne]

Oh look, another only Saiyans should be relevant post.

And "predictable" was in it.

It's how it's written. Piccolo cannot keep up with the Saiyans by his own strength, he's always needed Namekian Fusion. That capped out in the Cell Saga and he was far outclassed after the Saiyans went into the RoST. Sorry man, this is the Saiyan show and it's been that way since the end of the Cell Saga.

Roshi says hi.

Power levels are dependable on what they care to write and characters being relevant is the same thing.

Yeah, and the episodes suck. The only episodes I skipped in Super involved him.

Not everyone shares your opinion on the handling of strength relevance

[Olympian]

It's how it's written. Piccolo cannot keep up with the Saiyans by his own strength, he's always needed Namekian Fusion. That capped out in the Cell Saga and he was far outclassed after the Saiyans went into the RoST. Sorry man, this is the Saiyan show and it's been that way since the end of the Cell Saga.

Roshi says hi.

Power levels are dependable on what they care to write and characters being relevant is the same thing.

Yeah, and the episodes suck. The only episodes I skipped in Super involved him.

Not everyone shares your opinion on the handling of strength relevance

We`re not talking about who likes what, let`s not change the subject. The reply was about how you don`t require to be a Saiyan to be relevant and there`s examples of it in Super.

The personal taste is irrelevant.

[Lapislettuce]

Wasn't going to continue the discussion but then I realized I somehow missed this post

There have been other Dragon Ball stuff before Super. We had the 2008 special which brought the cast back, which focused heavily on the Saiyans. We then got EOB which was about Super Saiyan Bardock. We then got an OVA of Destroy all Saiyans. We finally got Battle of Gods, both the original and the final version focused heavily on Saiyans to the point of promoting them to godhood. Then we got Resurrection 'F', which gave focused to Freeza, Goku, and Vegeta. Nothing before Super pushed anything but the Saiyans. Vegeta being stuck as Super Saiyan 2 is a minor thing considering.

Super does used power level consistency despite popular belief. Which is why you don't have stuff like Roshi fighting Hit or Piccolo fighting anyone mid-tier (by mid-tier I mean someone around Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta's level). And, no offense, but we always get the 'maybe next arc' with Piccolo and Piccolo didn't even want to train three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber with Goku and Vegeta. If Piccolo isn't do anything in a tournament where there should be plenty of people within his weight class or can fight by outsmarting them (like Roshi and Krillin), I don't see much hope for him.

The specials that came before BOG more or less used the tone left by the Buu arc, and yes, that's the arc where he got left in the dust by the saiyans hard. Bardock being the legendary SSJ was really the most daring they had been since GT, and it still didn't do anything to disrupt the status quo left by the ending of DB.

And as far as the "maybe next arc" hopefulness goes - what's wrong with that? 17 got brought back, probably due to popular demand (and even if not, it was still unexpected). If Mai - friggin' Mai - can be plucked out of the depths of irrelevancy and made love interest of one of the most popular characters of the franchise, I think anything can happen.

17 wasn't brought back by popular demand, he isn't that popular in Japan. From the 2004 poll:

Best Characters
1.Son Goku: 6,235 points
2.Vegeta: 2,527 points
3.Son Gohan: 2,131 points
4.Trunks: 1,487 points
5.Piccolo: 1,176 points
6.Son Goten: 798 points
7.Kuririn: 736 points
8.Majin Buu: 421 points
9.Freeza: 324 points
10.Android No.18: 204 points
11.Mister Satan: 201 points
12.Karin-sama: 185
13.Kame-sennin: 172 points
14.Cell: 170 points
15.Yamcha: 163 points
16.Tenshinhan: 125
17.Bulma: 112 points
18.Android No.17: 98 points
19.Yajirobe: 93 points
20.Videl: 86 points

He was brought back because Toriyama wanted him back. As for Mai, she was slowly brought back along with the rest of the Pilaf Gang with the Dragon Ball revival. And as I pointed out, if Piccolo at this time where there are plenty of people within his weight class that he can fight still can't get scene time, there doesn't paint a bright future for him outside of being Gohan's teacher.

Oh yeah sure making it in a poll along with characters who are shoved in our faces 24/7 while he had 5% of screen time in z means he's not popular.

[Michsi]

Oh yeah sure making it in a poll along with characters who are shoved in our faces 24/7 while he had 5% of screen time in z means he's not popular.

I don't know what his current popularity is, but you'd be surprised how little screen time matters when it comes to the impact a character can make. I've seen characters with less then two chapters worth of screen time make it into the top five of popularity polls.

[Lapislettuce]

Oh yeah sure making it in a poll along with characters who are shoved in our faces 24/7 while he had 5% of screen time in z means he's not popular.

I don't know what his current popularity is, but you'd be surprised how little screen time matters when it comes to the impact a character can make. I've seen characters with less then two chapters worth of screen time make it into the top five of popularity polls.

His current popularity is fine. i'm very pleased with it. 17 has always been an appreciated character of course he couldn't compete with characters who actually stayed on the show and recieved more screen time. i've been a fan of anime for a long time. i know how popularity works. you need screen time, developement and to do something outstanding. the fact that 17 made it in this 2004 poll and 16 who helped Gohan achieve SSJ2 didn't speaks volumes on his popularity with fans.

[Michsi]

Oh yeah sure making it in a poll along with characters who are shoved in our faces 24/7 while he had 5% of screen time in z means he's not popular.

I don't know what his current popularity is, but you'd be surprised how little screen time matters when it comes to the impact a character can make. I've seen characters with less then two chapters worth of screen time make it into the top five of popularity polls.

His current popularity is fine. i'm very pleased with it. 17 has always been an appreciated character of course he couldn't compete with characters who actually stayed on the show and recieved more screen time. i've been a fan of anime for a long time. i know how popularity works. you need screen time, developement and to do something outstanding. the fact that 17 made it in this 2004 poll and 16 who helped Gohan achieve SSJ2 didn't speaks volumes on his popularity with fans.

16 had arguably even less screen time than 17, and his design wasn't the most appealing. Him helping Gohan achieve SS2 was just him dying and that is absolutely nothing exceptional .The moment is iconic, but not because of 16. And look at Bulma - she's been present since chapter 1, her relationship with Vegeta is ultra popular, but she alone got only 112 votes. Mr. Satan got more votes than someone as iconic as Roshi. Popularity is a fickle thing.

[HeroR]

“Anything goes” isn’t really an argument since it’s base on guessing.

I'm gonna have to counter that with a "duh." But anything is possible. I'm well aware of the low probability, but there is nothing saying it will never happen.

Piccolo, no. He has actually gotten less to do. He tried to fight Beerus, fought Freeza’s soldiers, got one match in the Champa Saga which he lost, then won, and then Vegeta forced him to forfeit. And despite Piccolo still being around, he hasn’t done anything. Tien still has more KOs than him despite Tien being gone since 106. He hasn’t even gotten a scene by himself since Gohan is always around.

Gohan fought a tougher opponent than Piccolo, so eased doesn’t matter in this context. And 106 was bad for both Piccolo and Gohan. They got pinned down, did nothing against the sniper, and Piccolo was a meat shield.

I guess we just evaluate performance differently then. I liked seeing Piccolo analyze and think his way through the problem. It was Tenshinhan's episode, so it's not like they could've defeated the opponent in his place, but what he got to do was good. Except sacrifice part, but I still say that was on Gohan.

If Episode 118 wants to be remembered in a good way then it needs no arm nonsense unless it is like what Piccolo done to Gohan in episode 88.

I'm sick of namekian limbs flying everywhere, but it seems they use them to sneak in serious "battle damage" which they can't show on characters that bleed red.

Piccolo hasn’t had a battle of wits fight since Frost.

[HeroR]

Wasn't going to continue the discussion but then I realized I somehow missed this post




The specials that came before BOG more or less used the tone left by the Buu arc, and yes, that's the arc where he got left in the dust by the saiyans hard. Bardock being the legendary SSJ was really the most daring they had been since GT, and it still didn't do anything to disrupt the status quo left by the ending of DB.

And as far as the "maybe next arc" hopefulness goes - what's wrong with that? 17 got brought back, probably due to popular demand (and even if not, it was still unexpected). If Mai - friggin' Mai - can be plucked out of the depths of irrelevancy and made love interest of one of the most popular characters of the franchise, I think anything can happen.

17 wasn't brought back by popular demand, he isn't that popular in Japan. From the 2004 poll:

Best Characters
1.Son Goku: 6,235 points
2.Vegeta: 2,527 points
3.Son Gohan: 2,131 points
4.Trunks: 1,487 points
5.Piccolo: 1,176 points
6.Son Goten: 798 points
7.Kuririn: 736 points
8.Majin Buu: 421 points
9.Freeza: 324 points
10.Android No.18: 204 points
11.Mister Satan: 201 points
12.Karin-sama: 185
13.Kame-sennin: 172 points
14.Cell: 170 points
15.Yamcha: 163 points
16.Tenshinhan: 125
17.Bulma: 112 points
18.Android No.17: 98 points
19.Yajirobe: 93 points
20.Videl: 86 points

He was brought back because Toriyama wanted him back. As for Mai, she was slowly brought back along with the rest of the Pilaf Gang with the Dragon Ball revival. And as I pointed out, if Piccolo at this time where there are plenty of people within his weight class that he can fight still can't get scene time, there doesn't paint a bright future for him outside of being Gohan's teacher.

Oh yeah sure making it in a poll along with characters who are shoved in our faces 24/7 while he had 5% of screen time in z means he's not popular.

This was taking in 2004. Freeza hasn’t been part of the story in decades and he’s in the top ten. Future Trunks got most of the votes and he dissapperard after one saga.

On the flipside, Roshi scored higher than Tien and Yamcha despite him doing nothing in Z. Bulma is only 17 despite the huge roles she usually have.

[kinisking]

Shh lapis lettuce. Hero r doesn't quite understand statistics. He thinks screen time and relevance doesn't mean anything just because characters like Roshi are more popular than Tien. Completely ignoring that there is always going to be outliers and even with a strong correlation the data points aren't always going to fall perfectly in a line of best fit.

[Lapislettuce]

I don't know what his current popularity is, but you'd be surprised how little screen time matters when it comes to the impact a character can make. I've seen characters with less then two chapters worth of screen time make it into the top five of popularity polls.

His current popularity is fine. i'm very pleased with it. 17 has always been an appreciated character of course he couldn't compete with characters who actually stayed on the show and recieved more screen time. i've been a fan of anime for a long time. i know how popularity works. you need screen time, developement and to do something outstanding. the fact that 17 made it in this 2004 poll and 16 who helped Gohan achieve SSJ2 didn't speaks volumes on his popularity with fans.

16 had arguably even less screen time than 17, and his design wasn't the most appealing. Him helping Gohan achieve SS2 was just him dying and that is absolutely nothing exceptional .The moment is iconic, but not because of 16. And look at Bulma - she's been present since chapter 1, her relationship with Vegeta is ultra popular, but she alone got only 112 votes. Mr. Satan got more votes than someone as iconic as Roshi. Popularity is a fickle thing.

Iff you're talking about Z only 16 had more screen time than 17.