Fusions Revisited in Dragon Ball Super

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If by 'doing stuff' you mean "waiting for ~goku~ and getting jobbed", then I suppose.

What did you expect? Goku defeating the main villain is inevitable because he is the main character, and the movies don't have time for the other characters to discover new power-ups like the manga had. In both BoG & FnF, characters other than Goku shine first, and then Goku comes in the end, just like it happened every other time in DBZ. The same thing happened with Gohan in Cell arc, and almost happened in Boo arc, when he was the main character. They don't have the time to shine like they did before, but they all play their roles in both movies, and eventually get defeated before Goku comes. This is nothing new.

[Gyt Kaliba]

What did you expect? Goku defeating the main villain is inevitable because he is the main character, and the movies don't have time for the other characters to discover new power-ups like the manga had. In both BoG & FnF, characters other than Goku shine first, and then Goku comes in the end, just like it happened every other time in DBZ. The same thing happened with Gohan in Cell arc, and almost happened in Boo arc, when he was the main character. They don't have the time to shine like they did before, but they all play their roles in both movies, and eventually get defeated before Goku comes. This is nothing new.

Exactly. All these complaints about "jobbing" while waiting for Goku to arrive, as if they're something new and unique to these movies, are pointless, because that's pretty much hos a majority of the arcs went. Every time.

[Kid Buu]

Didn't a movie just come out that dedicated screen time to different characters doing stuff?

If by 'doing stuff' you mean "waiting for ~goku~ and getting jobbed", then I suppose.

I don't see how that is any different from the pre-Raditz material, which you seem to be a fan of.

[Zephyr]

Vegetto/Gogeta isn't Goku, so he won't get to do anything.

So what you're saying is that Goku is the only one who "did anything" in the new movies. Let us try to identify this. What is the one thing that Goku did, that nobody else did, in these new films? He killed the big bad.

This is what you're saying is the only thing that counts as "doing something": killing the big bad.

Nobody in the Pilaf arc did anything. Nobody in the 21st TB arc did anything. Black is the only one in the Red Ribbon Army arc who did anything. Nobody in the 22nd TB arc did anything. Goku is the only one in the Piccolo Daimao arc who did anything. Nobody in the 23rd TB did anything. Nobody in the Saiyan arc did anything. Nobody in the Freeza arc did anything. Gohan is the only one who did anything in the Cell arc. I guess Goku was the only one who did anything in the Buu arc.

So I honestly can't see why you're complaining about these new movies.

If by 'doing stuff' you mean "waiting for ~goku~ and getting jobbed", then I suppose.

Well, that's certainly a better definition of "doing stuff" than the one you're going with. At least people do things in every arc of the story, when that definition is taken.

[sbk]

Didn't a movie just come out that dedicated screen time to different characters doing stuff?

If by 'doing stuff' you mean "waiting for ~goku~ and getting jobbed", then I suppose.

I don't see how that is any different from the pre-Raditz material, which you seem to be a fan of.

But the "waiting for ~goku~ and getting jobbed" thing never really happens in the pre-Raditz material.. The other characters get a lot to do

-Yamcha saving everybody from Oozaru Goku
-Goku solos the Red Ribbon Army, but nobody gets jobbed or waits for Goku
-Krillin loses against Blue, but still manages to hurt him. And Goku would've lost too if it wasn't for Blue's fear of mouses
-In the Piccolo arc, the other characters have their own plans and agendas (Roshi almost sealing Piccolo in that rice cooker, Tien teaching himself the Mafuba technique), 'they're not at all waiting for Goku to save them
-Everybody puts up a respectable performance in all the tournament arcs. Like Krillin only loses against either the main opponent (Roshi, Piccolo Jr) or Goku himself, but Krillin still gets a lot of respect even when he loses (ie: Piccolo Jr constantly being shocked at how good he is).

The other characters get treated with way more respect overall in the manga, and they actually get to fight main opponents. Goku's clearly the main character but it's executed so much better, it doesn't feel like the other characters are getting jobbed at all.

It's a night and day difference compared to RoF..

[Gyt Kaliba]

-Goku solos the Red Ribbon Army, but nobody gets jobbed or waits for Goku

The only reason nobody pulls the 'wait for Goku' game in that storyline is because it's entirely Goku driven for a change. It's all about his quest to get the four star ball back, and he heads out on his own. He takes it to the Red Ribbon, instead of them coming for him. If it had been the other way around, then it likely would have played out exactly as most other fights in the later manga did.

-Krillin loses against Blue, but still manages to hurt him. And Goku would've lost too if it wasn't for Blue's fear of mouses

Krillin still failed where Goku eventually succeeded (though really it was Arale that gets the win), though, so he still "jobbed" and dear god do I hate that stupid term.

-In the Piccolo arc, you have characters having their own plans and agendas (Roshi almost sealing Piccolo in that rice cooker, Tenshinhan teaching himself the Mafuba technique), 'they're not at all waiting for Goku and getting jobbed

They all still failed to win, and only in the end did they get saved by Goku. Especially in the manga, Ten's own attempts are pretty much pointless in the end.

I'm not going to deny that there's certainly more examples of things not working like that in the earlier material compared to the 'Z' material, but that's just it - the Z material is still part of the original manga that's been around since the 90's. Why are you trying to act like it's only now in the new movies that this happens when, again, it's been a major part of the way DB (unfortunately) seems to work, ever since the old days? Without a satisfactory answer for that, it all just comes off as some kind of edgy, 'EVERYTHING NEW IS CRAP JUST CUZ' sentiment that, frankly, looks silly.

[Kid Buu]

but the "waiting for ~goku~ and getting jobbed" thing never really happens in the pre-Raditz material..

-Goku solos the Red Ribbon Army, but nobody gets jobbed or 'wait for Goku'
-Krillin loses against Blue, but still manages to hurt him. And Goku would've lost too if it wasn't for Blue's fear of mouses or something
-In the Piccolo arc, you have characters having their own plans and agendas (Roshi almost sealing Piccolo in that rice cooker, Tenshinhan teaching himself the Mafuba technique), 'they're not at all 'waiting for Goku and getting jobbed'
-Everybody puts up a respectable performance in all the tournament arcs. Like Krillin only loses against either the main opponent (Roshi, Piccolo Jr) or Goku himself, but Krillin still gets a lot of respect even though he loses (ie: Piccolo Jr constantly being shocked at how good he is).

The other characters get treated with way more respect overall. They actually get to fight main opponents for one, and it doesn't feel like they're getting jobbed at all. It's a night and day difference compared to RoF, where they are so inferior that they're not even worthy of fighting Freeza or even contributing..

Maybe the "wait for Goku" part (that was more of Z's department), but everyone was indeed jobbing to make Goku look better starting from the 21st Budokai:

21st Budokai: Kuririn only beats Bacterian because of Goku, then Yamcha & Kuririn lose easily to Chun. Goku loses too, but he certainly has a much better effort.
Red Ribbon Army: Kuririn and Yamcha make a decent effort in the first two rounds of Baba's tournament, but then Yamcha gets trashed by a dude who Goku one-shots and makes everything before that seem pointless.
22nd Budokai: Yamcha gets destroyed easily by Tenshinhan, while Kuririn gets to beat Chaozu and then literally made to look worse than Goku, and Tenshinhan couldn't even defeat Goku without some technically.
Piccolo Daimao; Kuririn and Chaozu are killed by villains who Goku kills, Yamcha does nothing, and Tenshinhan gets beaten up by a guy who Goku one-shots.
23rd Budokai: Half-dead Piccolo handwaves a blast that scares off all the supporting cast, only Goku can save the day.

[pappy]

This conversation is taking a weird off-topic turn. I feel like it has a simple resolution as well: Goku is the main protagonist of Dragon Ball, a shonen manga. And throughout the series we've had wonderful moments of other characters getting their time to shine. Piccolo's makankosappo through Raditz and Goku; Gohan defeating Cell with his father's ghostly visage egging him on; and even moments where the big bad isn't put down but still great moments for secondary characters, like Tenshinhan keeping Cell at bay with his kikoho, the cat and mouse fun on Namek, and the many Budokai fights. That's it. That's the series we've all read and seen. There's a lead character.

[Rocketman]

Yes, let whoever can deal the almighty finishing blow dictate what character is worthy of watching, not, oh, I dunno, whether they're entertaining or not. Because clearly strength matters more in entertainment than entertainment does.

I've never made that claim, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up against me.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But the "waiting for ~goku~ and getting jobbed" thing never really happens in the pre-Raditz material.. The other characters get a lot to do

-Yamcha saving everybody from Oozaru Goku
-Goku solos the Red Ribbon Army, but nobody gets jobbed or waits for Goku
-Krillin loses against Blue, but still manages to hurt him. And Goku would've lost too if it wasn't for Blue's fear of mouses
-In the Piccolo arc, the other characters have their own plans and agendas (Roshi almost sealing Piccolo in that rice cooker, Tenshinhan teaching himself the Mafuba technique), 'they're not at all waiting for Goku to save them
-Everybody puts up a respectable performance in all the tournament arcs. Like Krillin only loses against either the main opponent (Roshi, Piccolo Jr) or Goku himself, but Krillin still gets a lot of respect even when he loses (ie: Piccolo Jr constantly being shocked at how good he is).

The other characters get treated with way more respect overall in the manga, and they actually get to fight main opponents. Goku's clearly the main character but it's executed so much better, it doesn't feel like the other characters are getting jobbed at all.

It's a night and day difference compared to RoF..

In the 3 tournament arcs (+ Uranai Baba arc), while everyone gets their chance to shine (they are forced to shine, since it's a tournament), Goku is always shown as the incredible prodigy that no one can face except for the finalists, and he loses only because of bad luck (but wins once). The Red Ribbon Arm arc is mostly Goku's solo adventure, while the Search for the DBs arc is a special one because fighting isn't its main theme. The rest of the story arcs (Daimao, Saiyan, Freeza, Cell, and Boo arcs) have the main cast trying to do their thing, until Goku arrives in the end to save the day (or Gohan in Cell arc, and almost in Boo arc). This is exactly the same in BoG & FnF, the other characters just don't have enough time like before because you are comparing 90-minute movies with story arcs composed with dozens of chapters.

I can see why someone wouldn't like the new characters, or the new power-ups, or the movies themselves in general, but the whole style of the story in the new movies in no different than it was in the manga.

[TJVY]

Once again Rocketman's opinion manages to cause an uproar among persistent fans to derail the thread. Opinions are opinions and there's no point in arguing with those who have already made up their mind on something.

I like the idea of Yamacha and Tien fusing as a means to become stronger, but how much stronger would they actually be at this point, perhaps strong enough to taken on a final form Frieza (Namek) at least.

[sbk]

I'm not going to deny that there's certainly more examples of things not working like that in the earlier material compared to the 'Z' material, but that's just it - the Z material is still part of the original manga that's been around since the 90's. Why are you trying to act like it's only now in the new movies that this happens when, again, it's been a major part of the way DB (unfortunately) seems to work, ever since the old days? Without a satisfactory answer for that, it all just comes off as some kind of edgy, 'EVERYTHING NEW IS CRAP JUST CUZ' sentiment that, frankly, looks silly.

But even in Z, you have:

Spoiler:

-Piccolo and Gohan help beat Raditz
-Piccolo saving Gohan from Nappa and getting an epic death, which in the end helped defeat Vegeta
-Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe help beat Vegeta
-Krillin and Gohan saving Dende's life
-Krillin, Gohan sabotaging Vegeta's wish on Namek
-Krillin, Gohan and Vegeta sabotaging Freeza's wish
-Gohan gets to bring back Piccolo
-Tien saving #18 from Cell
-Gohan surpassing Goku and beating Cell
-Goten and Trunks saving Vegeta from Buu
-Gohan and Gotenks surpass Goku (which is retconned in the new material for some reason) and get a few cool moments against Buu
-Tien saving Gohan and the rest from Buu
-Mr. Satan helping out defeat Buu

And so on... There probably will be no moments like this anymore, judging from the last few movies. The non-Goku/Vegeta characters are turned into lol-worthy fodder so inferior that they're only fit to fight Freeza's lackies I don't think it's the same in the manga at all, in the manga they got to fight/participate against the main guy, or at least get to shine a bit and do something actually useful

-Goku solos the Red Ribbon Army, but nobody gets jobbed or waits for Goku

The only reason nobody pulls the 'wait for Goku' game in that storyline is because it's entirely Goku driven for a change.

If the new material was like that as well (focusing solely on Vegeta, Goku, Freeza, Beerus, Whis), rather than featuring the rest of the cast but have them thrown under the bus so badly, that would've been a lot better IMO

[bleed0range]

Not really. Other then maybe Trunks and Goten... because they're the only one's who use fusion. At least, no fusion in the traditional sense such as the fusion dance. That was done to death during Buu and it's a product of that era. How about some fresh concepts? Fusion was even touched on in the Yo! Son Goku special. We don't need more fusion really. Although, like a lot of DB abilities, I'm sure it will turn up in some form... just don't need it to be so prominent ever again.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The non-Goku/Vegeta characters are turned into lol-worthy fodder so inferior that they're only fit to fight Freeza's lackies I don't think it's the same in the manga at all, in the manga they got to fight/participate against the main guy, or at least get to shine a bit and do something actually useful

You mean that taking their time fighting Freeza's army of 1000 soldiers to buy time for Goku & Vegeta isn't useful? And you mean that giving them fight scenes instead of having them get one-shoted by the main villain (like in BoG) isn't fan-service? How do you expect Kuririn, Kame-sennin, or Gohan to help against Beerus or Freeza? Even if Gohan had turned Ultimate, and even if SS3 Gotenks was there, they would still be useless.

[Lord Beerus]

Didn't a movie just come out that dedicated screen time to different characters doing stuff?

If by 'doing stuff' you mean "waiting for ~goku~ and getting jobbed", then I suppose.

That's pretty much how 90% of the acrs in the manga pan out, for the record.

[Rocketman]

That's pretty much how 90% of the acrs in the manga pan out, for the record.

Except the new movies cut out anything like Piccolo vs 17, or the three-way struggle over the Namek Dragonballs, or the showcase of skills in the tournaments, or the team effort against Vegeta, or or or.

[TheGmGoken]

What did you expect? Goku defeating the main villain is inevitable because he is the main character, and the movies don't have time for the other characters to discover new power-ups like the manga had. In both BoG & FnF, characters other than Goku shine first, and then Goku comes in the end, just like it happened every other time in DBZ. The same thing happened with Gohan in Cell arc, and almost happened in Boo arc, when he was the main character. They don't have the time to shine like they did before, but they all play their roles in both movies, and eventually get defeated before Goku comes. This is nothing new.

Exactly. All these complaints about "jobbing" while waiting for Goku to arrive, as if they're something new and unique to these movies, are pointless, because that's pretty much hos a majority of the arcs went. Every time.

Actually Goku did the jobbing and putting over talent in Z .

In both BoG & FnF, characters other than Goku shine first

BoG is one of the worse examples of other people getting to shine. It was the Goku show featuring Vegeta.

[Dyno]

Getting your ass kicked is not synonim for "shine", actually.

[GokuRules987]

I honestly don't want any new fusions or transformations. Adult Gotenks, sure, but please, let the SSGSS be the be-all, end-all. Toriyama isn't writing off the seat of his pants anymore. Now that he's chosen the "mastery over flash-ery" route via the movies, I want him to stick to it.

Vegetto/Gogeta isn't Goku, so he won't get to do anything.

Rocketman the GOAT with the smart-alecky comments in the clutch. You're absolutely right.

Well then it will lose viewership and no one will watch it anymore. Transformations where the core of DBZ and the should always remain there, although I agree I dont care much about fusion. I still hope we get to see a ssj3 with Goku long hair like in this scene cause its was f*cking badass!!!!
RoF transformation completely sucks ass!!!

[Gyt Kaliba]

Expecting a movie, which by it's nature is going to normally be 1 1/2 hours, 2 hours tops, to be able to give time for all of it's characters to do stuff that's "worthy" of them - especially an anime movie, and especially with the high bars some of you seem to be setting - is pretty much folly. If anything, this series should be a new hope for you, as it will have more run time to do things with it's various characters. Hell, by four episodes it's already going to be as long, roughly, as either of the new movies.

But no, continue to be cynical. Cuz that's a great way to live.