Fusions Revisited in Dragon Ball Super

[TheGmGoken]

Who was being cynical? .

[Rocketman]

But no, continue to be cynical. Cuz that's a great way to live.

Yeah, it is, actually.

[sbk]

edit: Sorry for derailing the thread ~_~

How do you expect Kuririn, Kame-sennin, or Gohan to help against Beerus or Freeza? Even if Gohan had turned Ultimate, and even if SS3 Gotenks was there, they would still be useless.

Believability is not really an issue when Freeza can become God-tier out of nowhere. If they wanted to make the other characters useful, they easily could have.

They could make Freeza so strong that Vegeta and Goku have trouble that the others need to help for example. Or they could not shaft/nerf the other characters so tragically (most notably Gotenks and Gohan) and make them so inferior to Goku and Vegeta in the first place.

Anyway I just disagree that the manga was anything like the new movies in how other characters are treated. Goku was the MC, but other characters got plenty of moments. The new movies have Goku and Vegeta do everything, with the rest being useless and getting no shine whatsoever. The manga was nothing like that.

Expecting a movie, which by it's nature is going to normally be 1 1/2 hours, 2 hours tops, to be able to give time for all of it's characters to do stuff that's "worthy" of them - especially an anime movie, and especially with the high bars some of you seem to be setting - is pretty much folly. If anything, this series should be a new hope for you, as it will have more run time to do things with it's various characters. Hell, by four episodes it's already going to be as long, roughly, as either of the new movies.

But no, continue to be cynical. Cuz that's a great way to live.

I don't expect a movie to give everybody their shine, just to not throw everybody not named Vegeta or Goku under the bus if they decide to feature them..

But the new movies went out of their way to feature the other characters solely to fodderize them and establish them as inferior to Goku and Vegeta the point that they (even Piccolo, Gotenks and Gohan) can't even help out, even giving a Goku and Vegeta a godly powerup to widen the gap some more.

I really hope you're right! It just seems really unlikely that the other characters can be relevant anymore if the series follows RoF

[Lord Beerus]

How do you expect Kuririn, Kame-sennin, or Gohan to help against Beerus or Freeza? Even if Gohan had turned Ultimate, and even if SS3 Gotenks was there, they would still be useless.

Believability is not really an issue when Freeza can become God-tier out of nowhere. If they wanted to make the other characters useful, they easily could have.

Anyway I just disagree that the manga was anything like the new movies in how other characters are treated. Goku was the MC, but other characters got plenty of moments. The new movies have Goku and Vegeta do everything, with the rest being useless and getting no shine whatsoever. The manga was nothing like that.

The manga was actually kinda like that at times. Whether it was Goku and/or Vegeta arriving to save the day. The King Piccolo arc was arguably the most blatant case of this.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Anyway I just disagree that the manga was anything like the new movies in how other characters are treated. Goku was the MC, but other characters got plenty of moments. The new movies have Goku and Vegeta do everything, with the rest being useless and getting no shine whatsoever. The manga was nothing like that.

What are you talking about? In BoG, Vegeta did everything until Goku arrived in the end, and it also had various non-fighting scenes with the rest of the cast before the final fight, and in FnF, Gohan & co. did everything until Goku & Vegeta arrived in the end.

Except the new movies cut out anything like Piccolo vs 17, or the three-way struggle over the Namek Dragonballs, or the showcase of skills in the tournaments, or the team effort against Vegeta, or or or.

We did get Z-Senshi vs Freeza's 1000 & Vegeta vs Freeza in FnF. I don't think we have enough time in the movies for a satisfactory tournament or DB hunt.

[FortuneSSJ]

The only fusion I want to see is MSSJG Gogeta.
Teen Gotenks would be fine, but I rather see both Goten and Trunks get more character development first. They rely in fusion too much.

[fadeddreams5]

Well then it will lose viewership and no one will watch it anymore. Transformations where the core of DBZ and the should always remain there, although I agree I dont care much about fusion. I still hope we get to see a ssj3 with Goku long hair like in this scene cause its was f*cking badass!!!!
RoF transformation completely sucks ass!!!

DBZ was popular way before SSJ was a thing...>_>;

But I do agree the RoF palette swap completely sucks ass. : D

Expecting a movie, which by it's nature is going to normally be 1 1/2 hours, 2 hours tops, to be able to give time for all of it's characters to do stuff that's "worthy" of them - especially an anime movie, and especially with the high bars some of you seem to be setting - is pretty much folly.

You see, that right there is the problem. If they can't give those characters the time to do something worthy of them, then why add them in the first place? Nobody wants to see their favorite character featured just to get mopped by a villain and do absolutely nothing else. They should reduce the cast, and wisely use the characters they choose to implement.

RoF is a special kind of weird because it did this. It reduced the cast, but featured characters that shouldn't have been featured, and nerfed two of the most major characters in the series. Tien and Master Roshi over Gotenks and Buu? A weakened Gohan that no one wants to see? Piccolo--the Super Namek who once was able to stand toe to toe with a stronger version of an android that nearly brought Armageddon to the future--having difficulty with a minion? Everyone was just used to fight fodder too.

[Faustus]

If they can't give those characters the time to do something worthy of them, then why add them in the first place?

You could ask this very question of the human characters from Namek onward. Regardless, it would have been infinitely unworthier of them not to show up when the earth is under threat.

Nobody wants to see their favorite character featured just to get mopped by a villain and do absolutely nothing else.

That's not what happens, though. Everyone I know of who's seen the movie has said they were on the whole satisfied with the role everyone was given to play. You might want to argue that the gang wasn't exactly integral to the final outcome in the grand scheme of things, but neither were Piccolo when he fought #17 or Tenshinhan when he impeded second-form Cell.

[GokuRules987]

It would be cool to see SSJGODSSJ VEGITO!!!

[fadeddreams5]

You could ask this very question of the human characters from Namek onward. Regardless, it would have been infinitely unworthier of them not to show up when the earth is under threat.

I was referring specifically to movies, which have an hour and 30 minute run time. Besides, the humans were dead in the Namek saga, and Krillin had a leading role, with Bulma being the best supporting character, as usual.

In the Android saga, they were shafted by the saiyans and Piccolo, but they (Yamcha, Tien, and Krillin) still had their moments that added to the plot in one way or another.

The Buu saga is the low period of DBZ, imo. Not commenting about that one.

You might want to argue that the gang wasn't exactly integral to the final outcome in the grand scheme of things, but neither were Piccolo when he fought #17 or Tenshinhan when he impeded second-form Cell.

Well, Tenshinhan allowed the Androids to flee, IIRC, so he helped progress the plot. Piccolo's battle brought tension and gave us a fine moment where we could root for someone in battle who wasn't a saiyan. This wasn't a mook he was fighting and going head to head with.

As for RoF, I guess I won't know until I see it. I still believe they chose an odd roster though.

[dbzfan7]

I'd love for fusion to return. I want more fusion. A lot of issue's could really be solved by fusion. Though I could see how fusion wouldn't be possible no more. Makes me wonder if a base fusion between Goku and Vegeta would be shorter cause they're so strong now, and if SSGSS would cut down the fusion time for similar reasoning. Kinda like how SSJ3 caused that issue.

[sbk]

Anyway I just disagree that the manga was anything like the new movies in how other characters are treated. Goku was the MC, but other characters got plenty of moments. The new movies have Goku and Vegeta do everything, with the rest being useless and getting no shine whatsoever. The manga was nothing like that.

What are you talking about? In BoG, Vegeta did everything until Goku arrived in the end, and it also had various non-fighting scenes with the rest of the cast before the final fight, and in FnF, Gohan & co. did everything until Goku & Vegeta arrived in the end.

The non-Goku/Vegeta characters are nerfed, relegated to fighting some grunts not even worth Goku's time, are reduced to damsels in distress having to wait for Goku to save their asses, and are cheerleaders for the rest of the movie.. Not really 'shining'

RoF is a special kind of weird because it did this. It reduced the cast, but featured characters that shouldn't have been featured, and nerfed two of the most major characters in the series. Tenshinhan and Master Roshi over Gotenks and Buu? A weakened Gohan that no one wants to see? Piccolo--the Super Namek who once was able to stand toe to toe with a stronger version of an android that nearly brought Armageddon to the future--having difficulty with a minion? Everyone was just used to fight fodder too.

Yeah they nerfed and shafted even Piccolo, Gohan, Gotenks beyond belief. Yet Vegeta went from being way inferior to Goku ever since Namek up to the very end of the manga, to being Goku's equal for whatever reason

And the series will obviously follow the movies and considering they went out of their way to feature the non-Goku/Vegeta characters just to portray them.. the way they did, every non-Goku/Vegeta character is kinda permanently ruined now.

[Deathbringer]

Gotenks is one of my favourite characters I would love to see him again, I wonder though if Goten and Trunks will finally be able to fully control themselves as Gotenks this time?

Also has there ever been a case of two fusions fusing with each other or is that not possible? (Adult Gotenks fusing with Vegetto for example...to become Govegettotenks...)

[Lord Beerus]

Yeah they nerfed and shafted even Piccolo, Gohan, Gotenks beyond belief. Yet Vegeta went from being way inferior to Goku ever since Namek up to the very end of the manga, to being Goku's equal for whatever reason

Vegeta surpassed Goku quite a few times post-Namek.

And the series will obviously follow the movies and considering they went out of their way to feature the non-Goku/Vegeta characters just to portray them.. the way they did, every non-Goku/Vegeta character is kinda permanently ruined now.

Please elaborate on how every non-Goku/Vegeta character is kinda permanently ruined now.

[dbzfan7]

Yeah they nerfed and shafted even Piccolo, Gohan, Gotenks beyond belief. Yet Vegeta went from being way inferior to Goku ever since Namek up to the very end of the manga, to being Goku's equal for whatever reason

Vegeta surpassed Goku quite a few times post-Namek.

And the series will obviously follow the movies and considering they went out of their way to feature the non-Goku/Vegeta characters just to portray them.. the way they did, every non-Goku/Vegeta character is kinda permanently ruined now.

Please elaborate on how every non-Goku/Vegeta character is kinda permanently ruined now.

I find it funny how people are suppose to be tired of these discussions, and yet they just keep welcoming them back. Apparently not cause then one side would just not bother answering as they'll just be locked into a debate they don't even like. I thought this was about Fusions being revisited in the new anime, and not random debates about other things. I'm sure a thread can be made on the importance or relevancy of characters.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The non-Goku/Vegeta characters are nerfed, relegated to fighting some grunts not even worth Goku's time, are reduced to damsels in distress having to wait for Goku to save their asses, and are cheerleaders for the rest of the movie.. Not really 'shining'

Only Gohan was nerfed (can only go up to SS), but not for no reason, but he still kicked ass (and showed that he is the strongest one there by defeating Shisami easily, while Piccolo had trouble with him), and everyone else got cool fight scenes. Vegeta also got a massive power-up, and also kicked Freeza's ass. What else do you want? You want to see everyone go Super Saiyan God, fight Freeza, and get their asses kicked until Goku comes to save the day? Or you want someone other than Goku to save the day? The last one ain't gonna happen, because Goku is the main protagonist, he will always be the one to save the day.

[Neon Z]

Anyway I just disagree that the manga was anything like the new movies in how other characters are treated. Goku was the MC, but other characters got plenty of moments. The new movies have Goku and Vegeta do everything, with the rest being useless and getting no shine whatsoever. The manga was nothing like that.

What are you talking about? In BoG, Vegeta did everything until Goku arrived in the end, and it also had various non-fighting scenes with the rest of the cast before the final fight, and in FnF, Gohan & co. did everything until Goku & Vegeta arrived in the end.

The non-Goku/Vegeta characters are nerfed, relegated to fighting some grunts not even worth Goku's time, are reduced to damsels in distress having to wait for Goku to save their asses, and are cheerleaders for the rest of the movie.. Not really 'shining'

A movie only has so much screentime though. Something like Pìccolo's fusion that allows him to shine for a while but is ultimately inconsequential just doesn't have time for a proper build up and execution in a short movie that barely goes over one hour. People already complain about the big power ups that Goku got being underwhelming, if they attempted to introduce even more of them for other characters it'd likely just hurt the movie even more overall. Even Blue SSJ Vegeta apparently gets a relatively small screentime. That's the main difference between the structure of the manga and these movies. In the manga, while Goku is out, the other characters often get stronger through various methods creating false hopes of victory that are eventually broken. Here, there's no time for that, but they still wanted to feature the other characters and the usual progression for the main plot, with a strong villain and new forms, so you get Goku being powered up, while everyone else is lagging behind.

The fact that they gave some screentime for that 1000 soldier battle shows that they want to feature the other characters too though, there just isn't enough space to properly build them up, something that a tv show hopefully will solve. Regarding them being relegated to grunts, well, yet again, it's a matter of screentime. Even if they had given names and unique designs to 5 or so soldiers you'd still be considering them grunts, considering how the red alien is often lumped with the other weaker soldiers in these discussions.

[sbk]

Vegeta surpassed Goku quite a few times post-Namek.

Please elaborate on how every non-Goku/Vegeta character is kinda permanently ruined now.

I only remember him passing Goku after the RoSaT, and only because he went in before Goku. Goku was overall way superior to him on Namek, during Cell, and Buu arc.

Ruined permanently in the sense that they can't be main guys, fight main foes anymore and/or do something useful anymore.

But it's telling they went out of their way to make Vegeta became Goku's equal despite Goku being portrayed as much more talented and superior in the manga, while at the same time making Piccolo, Gohan and Gotenks extremely weak despite the latter 2 being stronger than Goku in the manga, to make sure that even they are useless. The godly SSGSS power-ups makes the power gap even more over the top.

When there's two movies in a row nerfing/reducing every non-Goku/Vegeta character to fodder who do nothing worthwhile, there's not much hope for them..

And the new series will obviously build on that if it follows the movies

[Basaku]

No more Gotenks, at least not for a while IMO. These 2 need to be independent and recieve some major character developement on their own, accomplish something by themselves. The imaginery and 'trope' of Gotenks has been milked to death in the past 20 years, including recent movies.

[sbk]

Only Gohan was nerfed (can only go up to SS), but not for no reason, but he still kicked ass (and showed that he is the strongest one there by defeating Shisami easily, while Piccolo had trouble with him), and everyone else got cool fight scenes. Vegeta also got a massive power-up, and also kicked Freeza's ass. What else do you want?

-For them to not be nerfed (especially Gohan, Gotenks (in BoG) and Piccolo) and be so weak in the first place. They should be able to keep up with Goku
-For them do something worthwhile (beating fodder doesn't count). Like giving Freeza a legitimately hard time, or actually help out
-Or just not feature them at all and focus on just Goku/Vegeta/Beerus/Whis/Freeza if they're not gonna do anything worthwhile

I don't think this is unreasonable

Or you want someone other than Goku to save the day?

I didn't think of that tbh but that actually would've been amazingly awesome, and something new for the franchise, if the non-Goku/Vegeta fighters saved the day because Goku is away training. It would've portrayed them as formidable and legitmately useful fighters and would make their inclusion in DBS as relevant characters much more believable.