"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[prince212]

But to me it’s quite clear that the main product is the anime.

Of course money wise anime is the main product , The promotion for merchandise, video games etc etc is way bigger than the manga in this days , but as we talked in the previous posts , the original author soul is closer to the manga , It’s just natural . And that doesn’t mean manga is better as a fact , is proved that some fans preferred one continuity to the other m that’s up to your taste .

[Rakurai]

Honestly, people who try to argue which is more "canon" than the other are simply insecure about their own tastes.

So what if the Super anime is the main product? The manga has its own story and is just as official as the anime in terms of Toriyama's vision, if not more.

Super manga follows the original manga. Super anime follows a combination of the Z anime/Kai. That much has always been clear. Canon in the grand scheme of things is meaningless because writers will take whatever they can work with or reference and spin it into their own story.

[Miracles]

Just for the sake of truth, I wanted to clarify an issue some of us had earlier on a subject...Where some were saying the canon timeline of the DB wall paper wasn't Japanese official...

https://twitter.com/miichi1st/status/10 ... 6613716994

"Alexis and I just translated, edited and fact checked all of the text from the Japanese version. It was a lot of work but cool to see it all up there! The manga history of Dragon Ball!!"

I still doubt the Japanese text included the word canonical or something similar. It’s not like those translators aren’t notorious for having messed translations up either.
That said, calling the manga canon is not wrong. Super, generally speaking, is canonical to the original manga. But to me it’s quite clear that the main product is the anime. The movie will finally clear things up, so I don’t want to discuss this yet another time.

First they wanted to see if the poster was Japanese too, now it's something else. It does not matter if the movie won't use KK Blue or Beyond Blue Vegeta [from the looks of the trailers they aren't in] and is manga exclusive, people will find a way to hop scotch it. Evidenced by you trying to dance around the fact that this canon DB timeline poster could possibly be translated incorrectly now. Even tho it was stated to be fact checked and edited from the Japanese version for accuracy. The goal posts have been shifted again...

Go ahead believe what you want, but the facts are there, so far, the Super manga is the main canon to Toriyama's DB manga, not the anime. This is indisputable fact from authority.

[alakazam^]

stuff

No, what crossed my mind was that you stopped watching because you didn't like it. Oh, was that what you wanted to say? I'm sorry for not noticing because, you see,

(...) I stopped watching the tournament of power because it was bad and thoroughly unengaging and uninteresting

doesn't read as an opinion, at all. I shouldn't have to infer what's inside your mind when you write your posts when you can just write them as-is. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that if you didn't watch it, it's highly likely you don't have an informed opinion about it. And It shows when you talk about the Genkidama because you don't know how big it was or who contributed to it, and what's funny is that, if you read the manga, you'd realize none of that actually matters, which is why I took issue with it.

It's not my best, thank you for asking, but it's enough for reminding people this is the manga thread and not the "compare anime and manga using opinions" thread.

I'm sorry you equate addressing opinions with "attacking the poster bullshit" but, being the adult you are, you should know that your opinions can and will be address eventually in a forum and you don't have to take things that personally. This way, you'll stop seeing me thinking people are "meanies" for badmouthing the anime and you'll realize what annoys me is poor reasoning and presenting opinions as facts.

I'm saying your ad hominem bullshit is exactly that: bullshit. Bullshit not worth replying to.

I assume good faith and that you wouldn't post something that's an outright lie (despite evidence to the contrary)

But... I thought you were an adult... also, what happened to not attacking the poster? I'm confused now.

I don't just go "anime sux; manga better".

I'm pretty sure you imply as much but I can't go fetch examples right now. Maybe you could but don't just stay in the "recent".

Of course opinions aren't facts. So why the heck do my opinions get your goat so much? Why do my opinions itch so bad? Is it because I back my opinions up with well-reasoned points to bolster their credibility?

You must be kidding... I see no well-reasoned points but opinions and top of opinions. They wouldn't itch nearly as bad if you'd present them as actual opinions but it would be even better if you actually stopped talking about the anime for no reason at all. This is the manga thread. Of course comparisons will be made and that's fine but you tend to hide behind that excuse to criticize Toei and the anime for no reason at all. I might be wrong but I'm not the only one seeing this happen with the same 2 or 3 users, so...

It's pretty easy to do, too. Here:

"Wow, Toyotarou wasted all these fighters! I was expecting more information about them." <- doesn't mention the anime
"Why would he do that? I see them as being fodder, their role should be being ringed out as soon as possible, I don't think they need backstories!" <- doesn't mention the anime

Same reason people don't talk about the Star Wars Prequels without talking about the originals. Same reason people don't talk about The Hobbit trilogy without talking about the originals. Same reason people don't talk about any Spiderman or Superman movie without going back to Raimi or Donner.

Sorry, no idea what this even means or what reasons these people have.

You can reply to this if you want but I won't address this issue further as I'm sure everyone's fed up with it by now.

First they wanted to see if the poster was Japanese too, now it's something else. It does not matter if the movie won't use KK Blue or Beyond Blue Vegeta [from the looks of the trailers they aren't in] and is manga exclusive, people will find a way to hop scotch it. Evidenced by you trying to dance around the fact that this canon DB timeline poster could possibly be translated incorrectly now. Even tho it was stated to be fact checked and edited from the Japanese version for accuracy. The goal posts have been shifted again...

Go ahead believe what you want, but the facts are there, so far, the Super manga is the main canon to Toriyama's DB manga, not the anime. This is indisputable fact from authority.

Seeing that it came from the "legendary Super Saiyan" person that blocked people pointing out the error, he's very well entitled to doub her fact-checking and editing.

[lord turbo]

Vegeta didn't know Frieza could even transform and he was one of Frieza's top guys.

Yes... beforr Namek, after Namek everyone appears to be aware of Freeza's final form, doesn't seem like a secret anymore.

And I doubt Tarble asked the Namekians "Hey what was Frieza's power level" not that they would even have a way to explain it since they don't have numbers to explain it.

How can you be so confidently sure though? I think Namekians are aware of basic math and simple numbers.

And I believe the writers forgot how strong Piccolo was as he was treated as closer to rusty base Gohan than rusty ssj Gohan, and post Buu saga base Goku is supposed to be weaker than Frieza. Also the Tagoma vs Piccolo think is pretty much filler as it didn't come from Toriyama. We really don't even know how much of the abo cado thing came from Toriyama either and the whole special may have been retconned at this point anyways.

This conversation is not going to go anywhere if every time you run into a wall you can't answer or counter with a bunch of "maybes, ifs, speculation, retcons, and etc" at this point we might as well simply agree to disagree as we are not going to reach any kind of common ground it seems.

No, like I said it was pretty clear when watching at least Tarble was most likely talking about first form Frieza. Their power could really be anywhere between first form and final form Frieza and that statement would be true.

There is nothing clear about it, that's just your personal opinion, period. If they were weaker than Freeza it would have been pointed out which it wasn't, therefore, Tarble is not wrong. It needs to be contradicted first for it to be wrong.

However Beerus flat out said Goku couldn't beat Frieza.

And Tarble said Thode two were as strong as Freeza which Goku did not disagree with. We have two conflicting statements here, which one is correct?

And he said it in the movie AND the anime, and in the anime they even said ssj Goku would still have problems pretty much shutting down the people who were trying to say he was suppressed. They maybe even added that line because people were saying Goku was suppressed.

The same movie that references the Tarble special and I thought we were counting the anime because it might be filler so why are you using it, yet I can't use the same anime that proves base Saiyans > Freeza (Namek era)?

As mentioned above, I don't even think the writer of that episode realized he made Tagoma stronger than namek Frieza. And even if he did it was just some anime writer and not Toriyama.

If you're going to write off the anime then don't use it support your own claims, only fair right?

The power statement of Beerus comparing Goku to Frieza showed up in the movie, anime, and manga, meaning it is highly likely the line itself came from Toriyama.

Which is the exact same line unchanged, not from multiple sources like you claimed earlier, I forgot to mention in the anime and manga Beerus is completely unaware how strong Goku is until after he sees him in action so why is word held as law from a suppressed Goku that didn't even fight?

Buu saga base Goku also had some problems with Yakon, who should be weaker than Frieza as well as Frieza was the undisputed strongest in the mortal universe.

That's false, Goku had zero issues with Yakon.

Trunks and Goten were getting beaten badly by 18, who thought they were humans until they went ssj. It's a fare opinion to say their ssj forms are above 18, but it was pretty clear their base forms were below her as even if the costume was hindering them 18 was holding back and dominating them.

18 was not dominating the kids, not even close, why are you ignoring the kids stated 18 used to be stronger than their SSJ fathers, yet start off the fight as base and make zero mention of 18 holding back?

[kudo6000]

On the topic of that translated manga timeline chart -- the fact that it uses the term "canonical" raises some questions.

[Koitsukai]

So, how are we suppose to feel some sort of adrenaline with the remaining chapters when we already know that Broly would've won the ToP for U-7 easily? is like having ice cream while we are still having dinner.

Luckily, the following arc will crap all over Broly because that's the Toriyama way.

[shadowfox87]

So, how are we suppose to feel some sort of adrenaline with the remaining chapters when we already know that Broly would've won the ToP for U-7 easily? is like having ice cream while we are still having dinner.

Luckily, the following arc will crap all over Broly because that's the Toriyama way.

I've tried this before and it's not bad - having ice-cream and dinner at the same time.

[MoscoSama]

So, how are we suppose to feel some sort of adrenaline with the remaining chapters when we already know that Broly would've won the ToP for U-7 easily? is like having ice cream while we are still having dinner.

Luckily, the following arc will crap all over Broly because that's the Toriyama way.

The same way you feel adrenaline for every single arc knowing there are multiple sets of dragonballs, an angel who can reverse time and now bring people back to life and Goku is friends with the King of All and nothing that happens during the arc will be permenant unless you are Trunks

Enjoy the ride my man

[Bergamo]

So, how are we suppose to feel some sort of adrenaline with the remaining chapters when we already know that Broly would've won the ToP for U-7 easily? is like having ice cream while we are still having dinner.

Luckily, the following arc will crap all over Broly because that's the Toriyama way.

The same way you feel adrenaline for every single arc knowing there are multiple sets of dragonballs, an angel who can reverse time and now bring people back to life and Goku is friends with the King of All and nothing that happens during the arc will be permenant unless you are Trunks

Enjoy the ride my man

The real question is how are we supposed to enjoy the concept of a multiversal tournament when it was introduced to us 2 years ago and we're still watching/reading about it.

[Jesus-is Lord]

The question is how are we supposed to be feel tension again if goku (and I guess vegeta too, now) can perform the Hakai technique if they get desperate enough? Whis never interferes and you can always write out the Zeno button in the story, but goku, at least, still can Hakai if situation calls for it.

[Noah]

On the topic of that translated manga timeline chart -- the fact that it uses the term "canonical" raises some questions.

Questions that suit better on this thread, mate

[Bergamo]

The question is how are we supposed to be feel tension again if goku (and I guess vegeta too, now) can perform the Hakai technique if they get desperate enough? Whis never interferes and you can always write out the Zeno button in the story, but goku, at least, still can Hakai if situation calls for it.

He can't in the ToP because that's against the rules. I wouldn't be surprised if Jiren/Broly were immune to Hakai because they are ridiculously OP.

[Jesus-is Lord]

The question is how are we supposed to be feel tension again if goku (and I guess vegeta too, now) can perform the Hakai technique if they get desperate enough? Whis never interferes and you can always write out the Zeno button in the story, but goku, at least, still can Hakai if situation calls for it.

He can't in the ToP because that's against the rules. I wouldn't be surprised if Jiren/Broly were immune to Hakai because they are ridiculously OP.

That would be stupid, please toyotaro don't incorporate toeis bad writing into the Hakai. You can't "tank" a Hakai. That absloutley makes no sense, .maybe there are techniques use to counteract it, but "tanking it" would be really really stupid. That'd be toei super level of stupid

[emperior]

On the topic of that translated manga timeline chart -- the fact that it uses the term "canonical" raises some questions.

It was also never used before for something Dragon Ball related. It surely raises questions considering how convenient it is that it’s seemingly first been used in a poster translated by people who do a error or two every month when translating Toyotaro’s manga.
But sure, let’s put all our trust in a translation made by a person who blocks people on Twitter as soon as her errors get pointed out. She being a professional doesn’t mean all her translations are perfect, and making mistakes is human.
I have all the reasons to believe she might have misinterpreted what was given to her. For all we know, the original Japanese thing may have said a similar yet different thing.
She also has all the reasons to try and promote the product she works for as being the main one over the anime.
Until I see the word canonical written in Japanese and confirmed by someone whose translations I actually trust like Herms, I won’t believe it.

[UltraPrimus22]

Toriyama corrected art for Caulifla in chapter 32 which means he didn’t care enough about back tingles to get Toyo to add it despite him “supposedly mentioning it”

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you're going with this. As you said, Toriyama corrected Caulifla's first appearance artwork in Chapter 32, among other visual corrections such as Jiren's very own intro and a dialogue-heavy Krillin scene joking around Goku's tactless reason for bringing Krillin along. . That's about the gist of things, as nothing's stated that Toriyama changed the dialogues or original storyboards of Toyotaro beyond the original idea. If Toyotaro didn't include to the throwaway line about "tingly backs", that's his prerogative, and Toriyama trusts Toyotaro even goes against or modify his ideas.

According to Herms, the only reason the "tingly back" explanation was even brought up was based on an anecdote from Nagamine about Toriyama describing Super Saiyan transformations, inspiring him to emphasize the physical aspects of transformations in animation. Tatsuya Nagamine is a primary source (or secondary relative to Toriyama), much like Toyotaro, because he's the director adapting Toriyama's script wholesale. This interview just further supports the idea that the explanation came from Toriyama months ago, because while Nagamine didn't work on the Universal Surivial Saga to import such an idea, Toriyama did have a few more instances of working with Toei's interpretation beyond the initial outline throughout (as Toshio and the aforementioned interview can test.)

The only ones I think hold up are those related to Toyotaro's drawing and paneling ability. I don't care about those things, much like many don't care to talk about Toei's obvious bad (even compared to typical shonen series from other production companies) animation.

This is blatantly untrue, and strawman-like. In addition to Kanzenshuu having two animation threads dedicated to discussing Super's animation ("Super Animation Catalogue 2.0" and "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub"), one of our very own moderators (Ajay) has a Youtube channel that primarily does breakdowns of modern Dragon Ball's animation (with the occasional dips into "Z" and "GT"). He, much like other animation enthusiasts that have above-average knowledge about the industry and the people who work within it, has been critical about Super's positives and negatives regarding most aspects of the show's production. Especially his tweets, which are rawer takes on his Youtube material.

Even if one doesn't watch (or care to bother completing) the show, Sakagubooru has a distilled collection of the weekly-run series' best clips and the animators involved to produce them, showing how Super has grown since its inception.

[Bergamo]

On the topic of that translated manga timeline chart -- the fact that it uses the term "canonical" raises some questions.

It was also never used before for something Dragon Ball related. It surely raises questions considering how convenient it is that it’s seemingly first been used in a poster translated by people who do a error or two every month when translating Toyotaro’s manga.
But sure, let’s put all our trust in a translation made by a person who blocks people on Twitter as soon as her errors get pointed out. She being a professional doesn’t mean all her translations are perfect, and making mistakes is human.
I have all the reasons to believe she might have misinterpreted what was given to her. For all we know, the original Japanese thing may have said a similar yet different thing.
She also has all the reasons to try and promote the product she works for as being the main one over the anime.
Until I see the word canonical written in Japanese and confirmed by someone whose translations I actually trust like Herms, I won’t believe it.

Until there is any evidence suggesting that this translation is incorrect you're just denying facts. And no, this doesn't promote the manga as the main product. The only reason people even batted an eye at this poster(besides how well put together of a DB summary it is) was because they were using it in petty canon debates.

[Pannaliciour]

Bad execution is bad regardless if Mr.Toriyama did it, Toyotarõ or Toei. Ditto for bad ideas.
You can like the same idea in one version and hate it in another, if the version you like executed it differently.

Things aren't black and white. This weird tribalism doesn't do anyone any favors. Let's please worry ourselves about content.

Anyway..., Goku has an idea about Ultra Instinct and the guidance from Whis, Jiren is there to push him to the limit. That's the minimum the manga gave us. That's enough since Goku's a broken prodigy; now I would like something more to give Ultra Instinct greater impact. The Genki Dama stuff, I don't like it and I can't imagine many scenario's where I would like it.

That's still a bit in the future, I'm more curious about the end of the Kefla conflict and what's going to happen with Muten Roshi.

Wait when did Goku know about UI and the guidance from Whis?

[TKA]

The only ones I think hold up are those related to Toyotaro's drawing and paneling ability. I don't care about those things, much like many don't care to talk about Toei's obvious bad (even compared to typical shonen series from other production companies) animation.

This is blatantly untrue,

Let me clarify:

much like many in this thread don't care to talk about Toei's obvious bad (even compared to typical shonen series from other production companies) animation.

Like I've made clear multiple times, I don't indulge in anime-centric threads since I have no respect whatsoever for what Toei did with that product, nor do I find enjoyment in it. I don't know what your experience is like browsing other threads and such, but we don't talk about Toei's animation or art quality here.

[UltraPrimus22]

The only ones I think hold up are those related to Toyotaro's drawing and paneling ability. I don't care about those things, much like many don't care to talk about Toei's obvious bad (even compared to typical shonen series from other production companies) animation.

This is blatantly untrue,

Let me clarify:

much like many in this thread don't care to talk about Toei's obvious bad (even compared to typical shonen series from other production companies) animation.

Like I've made clear multiple times, I don't indulge in anime-centric threads since I have no respect whatsoever for what Toei did with that product, nor do I find enjoyment in it. I don't know what your experience is like browsing other threads and such, but we don't talk about Toei's animation or art quality here.

You brought up Toei's animation and art quality in your initial comment regarding the general fanbase's critiques of Toyotaro's artwork, then compared it to Toei's own. Ironically, if you didn't want someone to critique that part of the statement about Toei's animation, then perhaps you shouldn't have needlessly compared Toei in that instance. Leaving the stance off at "I just don't care about those things (Toyotaro's drawing and paneling ability)" would have perfectly sufficed to your point, and "stayed on topic."