Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I guess we have to assume Fusions absolutely suck if it doesn't contain 2 Saiyans

It could also have something to do with the difference in power. Goku and Vegeta and Caulifla and Kale were pretty much similar in power. With the others, Supreme Kai was far stronger than Kibito, Goku Black was far stronger than Zamasu and probably Elder Kai was far stronger than the Witch so maybe it doesn't have the same impact.

Though then Gowasu did say that Merged Zamasu had Goku Black and Zamasu's powers combined and then it was extended to no end.

[Koitsukai]

Well, Kefla got in fact awkwardly strong, it wasn't neccesary to make her that much powerful, Goku being exhausted was enough to make the fight uneven and interesting until UI appears. Because if against UI Omen she at least landed a single punch or dodge just one kick i would understand the massive power up.

Maybe it has to do with Kale and Caulifla being transformed when they used the Potara, I don't remember Champa telling them they shouldn't. We don't see them turning off the SS before using them, they were at their full powers, and with Goku about to finish them off. Perhaps it shortens the lifespan(if it even does that, elder kai didn't know that much actually) but amps the power in a greater way.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Overall, I think having power levels being predicated on what one needs to fight with a character in a brawl is a better indicator than trying to definitively say one is stronger than another, at least some of the time.

I also consider the state in which someone is fighting at a given time.

For example, Krillin has gotten strong and skilled enough that, whilst he can't directly exchange blows with base Goku, can catch him off balance and land some solid hits; his more tricky attacks even require Goku to transform into a Super Saiyan so that he has an intense enough type of energy to prevent Krillin's strategy from taking him down, even though he'd survive the attack fine due to his power level.

In a similar vein, the Trio De Dangers are stronger than Krillin, enough so that they can directly brawl with base Goku even though, again, he's still stronger than them.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I think the power of base Gohan / Picolo is something very confusing.

Yes, supposedly, the base power Gohan is equal to the basic Goku. But then, why Goku, only in SSJ2, was able to rival the power of Ultimate Gohan, who is much stronger than his own SSJ2?
So, the power of base Goku is higher than the base Gohan?

Piccolo easily defeated SSJ2 Gohan, who supposedly was on the same level as SSJ2 Goku, but why his charged attack was defended by
base Goku on EP 90?
So, would Piccolo be below Caulifla and Kyabe?

I think considering that Base Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, I'd find it completely absurd to think Piccolo would have become over a hundred times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Just a year prior he wasn't even as strong as Buu.

But even then if Piccolo went from being as strong as Base Gohan to as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan then he must have got a hundred times stronger in just one year.

Unless after Gohan got back his Ultimate Form and did his off screen training for a day, Gohan got boosted up so now his Base form was stronger than his previous Super Saiyan 2 form and thus Piccolo.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku = Super Saiyan 2 Gohan >> Base Goku = Base Gohan > Piccolo = Super Saiyan 2 Gohan >> Base Gohan (before)

However, I also find it very absurd that in a few hours, Gohan base can jump to a level far above Gotenks SSJ3, but before it was much weaker.

Well, Goku base seems to be stronger than Gohan base, after all, Goku in SSJ2 has managed to rival Ultimate Gohan (which is much stronger than Gohan SSJ2).

So, maybe it would be Ultimate Gohan> Goku SSJ2> Gohan SSJ2> Goku Base> Gohan Base, though I'm not sure.
I also do not believe that Piccolo currently would still be weaker than Gohan's base. I do not remember if in ToP we had fights that confirmed this

Or maybe, just maybe (sarcasm on the word “maybe”), since gohan is around ssb level in his mystic form, and ssb level characters put ss vegito to shame, gohan did get thousands of times more powerful than when he fought super buu.

He doesn't need to be that close to SSB in order to fight him for a couple of second(which was really, all it was), or are you going to tell me that SSB Goku is comparable to Jiren because they were able to have an extended exchange of blows?

Hell, I think the stuff I believe is extremely out of whack(namely that Gohan got to a similar level of power as his SS2 form in 88 through his training, which is already an insane boost), but I think my line of thinking at least makes sense with the information and contradictions to information presented to us.

Your reason Makes the least sense. he is physically stronger than dyspo, who is physically stronger than a ssg goku (tho physically weaker than a ssjb level opponent, but can keep up with their power thanks to his speed). Ultimate gohan is at the level of ssb. Theres no denying that. To deny that is to call all the episodes where gohan fought ssb level opponents outliers, which they arent. Glad you are the only one who is downplaying gohan here.

Dyspo never showed physical strength at the same level as Goku SSG. He just managed to hit him because of his speed.

Whereas Ultimate Gohan was beating him, I would say Dyspo in terms of power is above SSJ3, but nothing much beyond that.

Gohan is also not SSB tier. Maybe SSG tier

[Bullza]

However, I also find it very absurd that in a few hours, Gohan base can jump to a level far above Gotenks SSJ3, but before it was much weaker.

Yeah it is. All I can think of would be that whatever he did that skyrocketed his Ultimate Form up to the point he could rival Super Saiyan Blue Goku also had the same effect on his Base Form.

Like how Goku's Base Form skyrocketed after experiencing Super Saiyan God perhaps but that's based on nothing.

Well, Goku base seems to be stronger than Gohan base, after all, Goku in SSJ2 has managed to rival Ultimate Gohan (which is much stronger than Gohan SSJ2).

Well Gohan supposedly wasn't fighting serious there. He was probably holding back to a significant extent. I wouldn't find it surprising though if Goku was stronger in the same form.

I also do not believe that Piccolo currently would still be weaker than Gohan's base. I do not remember if in ToP we had fights that confirmed this.

The major comparison would be the fights with the Namekians. All four were fighting on par with each other. Saonel was shown knocking down Piccolo and then when he went to strike him down, Gohan stopped his attack. He also countered another attack and broke off one of their arms.

If anything he was doing better than Piccolo. Aside from that....Gohan struggled with Jimeze whereas Goku was stronger than Ribrianne. I'd have said that was something because it makes sense for Ribrianne to be their #1 fighter but when Goku was shown fighting Jimeze he was a Super Saiyan so it doesn't tell you much.

[namekiansaiyan]

I also do not believe that Piccolo currently would still be weaker than Gohan's base. I do not remember if in ToP we had fights that confirmed this.

The major comparison would be the fights with the Namekians. All four were fighting on par with each other. Saonel was shown knocking down Piccolo and then when he went to strike him down, Gohan stopped his attack. He also countered another attack and broke off one of their arms.

If anything he was doing better than Piccolo. Aside from that....Gohan struggled with Jimeze whereas Goku was stronger than Ribrianne. I'd have said that was something because it makes sense for Ribrianne to be their #1 fighter but when Goku was shown fighting Jimeze he was a Super Saiyan so it doesn't tell you much.

Gohan also got knocked down by Pirina first but unlike Saonel, Pirinia did not follow up his attack. I don't like that scene in episode 115 where Piccolo got grabbed as Piccolo could have easily done his own ki blast or something still instead of Gohan coming in. That was forced teamwork there for no reason.

Gohan was struggling with Instant transmission against Jimeze. I think the magical boys are the strongest from Universe 2. Ribrianne forms didn't do anything and the giant form just looked liked it increased her size and nothing else.

[Marlowe89]

However, I also find it very absurd that in a few hours, Gohan base can jump to a level far above Gotenks SSJ3, but before it was much weaker.

My problem with the whole notion, or at least its relation to Gotenks in particular, is that it's entirely predicated on a scene from a small arc that Toriyama most likely had no involvement in (Potaufeu) despite the fact that one of the scenario writers already conferred Super's power-scaling to Toriyama's views specifically. From a purely logical standpoint, that alone should call the assumption into question at the very least; it's dubious for perfectly valid out-of-universe reasons in addition to the in-universe ones.

Isolating these feats based on the context of authorial intent would seem to resolve at least some of the discrepancies posed by the anime.

[RandomGuy96]

However, I also find it very absurd that in a few hours, Gohan base can jump to a level far above Gotenks SSJ3, but before it was much weaker.

My problem with the whole notion, or at least its relation to Gotenks in particular, is that it's entirely predicated on a scene from a small arc that Toriyama most likely had no involvement in (Potaufeu) despite the fact that one of the scenario writers already conferred Super's power-scaling to Toriyama's views specifically. From a purely logical standpoint, that alone should call the assumption into question at the very least; it's dubious for perfectly valid out-of-universe reasons in addition to the in-universe ones.

Isolating these feats based on the context of authorial intent would seem to resolve at least some of the discrepancies posed by the anime.

This seems likely given the lack of such implications in the manga, which is subject to more thorough review on Toriyama's part. Alternatively Gotenks could just be really weak in that arc from lack of training. That wouldn't be remotely unprecedented in Super's continuity considering the meteoric drops in power Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo all experienced.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gohan wasn't weaker than Gotenks before his training with Piccolo before the TOP. He was already shown to be comparable to Goku in the same form prior during their fight on the farm even though Gotenks couldn't even budge Vegeta with his hits in a direct fight.

[Rally 07]

Well, Kefla got in fact awkwardly strong, it wasn't neccesary to make her that much powerful. Because if against UI Omen she at least landed a single punch or dodge just one kick i would understand the massive power up.

Well I can see how Kefura's power seems pretty weird as both Caulifla and Kale's individual Base forms are completely different from each other, not to mention both their Base forms are inferior to that of a God Essence Base form Gokou. Coupled with the fact that Kefura's fusion seems pretty unbalanced unlike Vegetto's as Gokou and Vegeta's powers are quite relative (which is why their fusion of Vegetto is a perfect fusion unlike Kefura) whereas Kale and Caulifla's individual powers are very different. So yeah, I can see why people think Kefura overall is sorta weird. However, Kefura being powerful doesn't do anything bad or negative for power scaling overall, it Cough*... Writing.

[Hugo Boss]

However, I also find it very absurd that in a few hours, Gohan base can jump to a level far above Gotenks SSJ3, but before it was much weaker.

My problem with the whole notion, or at least its relation to Gotenks in particular, is that it's entirely predicated on a scene from a small arc that Toriyama most likely had no involvement in (Potaufeu) despite the fact that one of the scenario writers already conferred Super's power-scaling to Toriyama's views specifically. From a purely logical standpoint, that alone should call the assumption into question at the very least; it's dubious for perfectly valid out-of-universe reasons in addition to the in-universe ones.

Isolating these feats based on the context of authorial intent would seem to resolve at least some of the discrepancies posed by the anime.

This seems likely given the lack of such implications in the manga, which is subject to more thorough review on Toriyama's part. Alternatively Gotenks could just be really weak in that arc from lack of training. That wouldn't be remotely unprecedented in Super's continuity considering the meteoric drops in power Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo all experienced.

I think Gotenks being weaker due to the boys softening is a strong possibility, but Goku has also consistently engaged in great fights in his normal form, like against final form Freeza after he powered up and Boo after he slimmed down, despite not having conclusive ends. He even outperformed SS2 Caulifla for a while. In another hand, Gohan and Piccolo teamwork combination only got a compliment from Goku, it’s not like he was in any danger of losing to them either.

[TheSaiyanGod]

However, I also find it very absurd that in a few hours, Gohan base can jump to a level far above Gotenks SSJ3, but before it was much weaker.

My problem with the whole notion, or at least its relation to Gotenks in particular, is that it's entirely predicated on a scene from a small arc that Toriyama most likely had no involvement in (Potaufeu) despite the fact that one of the scenario writers already conferred Super's power-scaling to Toriyama's views specifically. From a purely logical standpoint, that alone should call the assumption into question at the very least; it's dubious for perfectly valid out-of-universe reasons in addition to the in-universe ones.

Isolating these feats based on the context of authorial intent would seem to resolve at least some of the discrepancies posed by the anime.

Yes, I think it very strange that any enemy that faces Goku and Vegeta in the weakest form is much stronger than Gotenks SSJ3, based only on the Choujinsui saga. I even have doubts in considering this, since DBS is inconsistent with respect to Power levels, but I think we have nothing to put Goku base and Vegeta base on another level.

In recruiting, we saw Goku's base facing smoothly Slim Boo, who was stronger and who earlier defeated Basil, something that reinforces that his level in the base form is considerably high, although perhaps not be equal to Gotenks SSJ3.

However, in the manga we saw that this is very different, since apparently Goku's base is stronger than Shin (which in some guides is placed at the same level as the Goku SSJ of the Cell saga) and not at the level of Gotenks SSJ3, and this does more meaning because we would not have to consider that Trunks was hundreds of times stronger than Gotenks SSJ3, just because it was able to rival Goku SSJ3.

But in the manga Goku and Vegeta also trained with Whis, so I would not be surprised if only in the base form, their strength was much bigger than we think

[PFM18]

At this point whether you like it or not, you are going to have to accept the immense power creep in DBS and the fact that Goku in his base is stronger than anybody who made an appearance in DBZ and it isn't even really particularly close. He absorbed SSG in his base, he was shown to be dramatically superior to SSJ3 Gotenks in base, and showed to be on par with Buu after training and gaining a significant power boost without appearing to have put in a ton of effort in doing so.

[ZombieVito]

I guess we have to assume Fusions absolutely suck if it doesn't contain 2 Saiyans

It could also have something to do with the difference in power. Goku and Vegeta and Caulifla and Kale were pretty much similar in power. With the others, Supreme Kai was far stronger than Kibito, Goku Black was far stronger than Zamasu and probably Elder Kai was far stronger than the Witch so maybe it doesn't have the same impact.

Though then Gowasu did say that Merged Zamasu had Goku Black and Zamasu's powers combined and then it was extended to no end.

It's exactly that.

If all fusions got the powers added and then multiplied tens of times then Kibitoshin would have been SS3 tier in the Boo arc and that obviously wasn't the case.

Now I do wonder if Kefla got a bigger boost than Vegetto. She seemed way too strong to be able to compete with a SSG Goku, even if the latter was tired.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Power creep is a thing you know. Gt goku is already at least ssj3 level by beating an opponent who is stronger than buu (base rildo), in his base. So why cant a goku who trained several years with an angel almost infinitly more powerful than any Gt character, be more powerful than his Gt counter part?

[Bullza]

I have no problem with Base Goku and Vegeta being so strong but why are Gohan and Trunks up there with them?

Goku was already far stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan during the Resurrection F saga. Goku then trained hard for three years in the Rosat, he was involved in many tough battles and took advantage of special training equipment from Whis.

Meanwhile Gohan just trained with Piccolo, for not nearly as long a time and no special equipment and he would seemingly have grown at a vastly quicker pace.

Trunks didn't even have anyone to train with.

[Puaru]

I have no problem with Base Goku and Vegeta being so strong but why are Gohan and Trunks up there with them?

Goku was already far stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan during the Resurrection F saga. Goku then trained hard for three years in the Rosat, he was involved in many tough battles and took advantage of special training equipment from Whis.

Meanwhile Gohan just trained with Piccolo, for not nearly as long a time and no special equipment and he would seemingly have grown at a vastly quicker pace.

Trunks didn't even have anyone to train with.

As for me, I think It sucks how Trunks was able to go staight from SS2 to having SSB level power in litteraly an instant just by getting angry. Because this seems to indicate that Trunks actually had more hidden potential than Gohan along, since Gohan's supposed "ultimate" form is weak compared to the power that Trunks acchieved. I'm okay with Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Gohan now since that can be explained with their god ki, but having a Saiyan who DOES'NT have god ki being able to get much stronger than ultimate Gohan makes it seem like Gohan was never special to begin with.

[Bullza]

As for me, I think It sucks how Trunks was able to go staight from SS2 to having SSB level power in litteraly an instant just by getting angry. Because this seems to indicate that Trunks actually had more hidden potential than Gohan along, since Gohan's supposed "ultimate" form is weak compared to the power that Trunks acchieved. I'm okay with Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Gohan now since that can be explained with their god ki, but having a Saiyan who DOES'NT have god ki being able to get much stronger than ultimate Gohan makes it seem like Gohan was never special to begin with.

Yeah and they never really explained what the form is either. Probably would have just been better had he turned Super Saiyan 3 and put up a fight using more clever tactics.

Though during the Universe 6 Saga and I think people forget this, when they were choosing their team, Vegeta mentioned Gohan and how he had more potential than any of them and by that time they were Super Saiyan Blue so in a way it does kinda make sense that Ultimate Gohan did eventually reach those levels.

I'm not sure who was meant to be stronger between Trunks and Gohan by the end of the series though.

[Doctor.]

Power creep is a thing you know. Gt goku is already at least ssj3 level by beating an opponent who is stronger than buu (base rildo), in his base. So why cant a goku who trained several years with an angel almost infinitly more powerful than any Gt character, be more powerful than his Gt counter part?

Because GT remains (somewhat) consistent with its portrayal of a ridiculously strong base Goku. As in, base Goku actually beats the fuck out of characters that were weaker than SS3 Goku in the previous series, like the other Super Saiyans.

In Super, Goku can smack the fuck out of SS3 Gotenks in one moment and be forced to go Super Saiyan to fight Gohan and Kuririn in the next one.

Literally ever character in the ToP, Roshi and the humans included, is comparable to BoG SSG Goku if we say base Goku is this strong. Wow, Beerus was so excited to fight a SSG when he could have fought literally everyone else after training them for a few hours?

[SupremeKai25]

Though then Gowasu did say that Merged Zamasu had Goku Black and Zamasu's powers combined and then it was extended to no end.

Because that is the reality of the situation. Fused Zamasu was the most powerful fusion ever, able to wield Goku Black's supreme strenght and Future Zamasu's perfect immortality/invincibility and flawless regeneration capabilities. Fused Zamasu didn't just have a mixture of the two powers, but had endless power altogether.

The writers were pretty naive to create such a powerful and astonishing villain, hence why they add to come up with an unbelievable and silly way to defeat him, because there was no other way at all. And I'm so glad that Toriyama changed his original plan. Have Fused Zamasu be weaker than two Super Saiyan Blue fighters? What a stupid idea. The final villain of an arc shouldn't be that weak. And even what they did in the anime, that they said that Fused Zamasu was just half-immortal, was so dumb. When Goku and Vegeta fused in the Buu saga, it's not like Vegito was half-alive/half-deceased because one of the fusées was dead. No, he was 100% alive. It should have been the same in the anime, Fused Zamasu should have been 100% immortal. Such silly writing.

Which reminds me, it's so stupid that Supreme Kai Shin said in ep. 109 that Jiren is by far the most powerful enemy they have ever faced. So I am supposed to believe that Jiren could easily stomp Infinite Zamasu, a being who merged with the very fabric of reality and took over the multiverse and invaded other timelines all in the matter of a few seconds. Yeah, right. It's just what sounds coolest now, screw every logic. Because why say 'Jiren might be just as powerful and dangerous as Zamasu was!' when you can just say 'Jiren is the strongest guy we've ever faced', thus sounding cool. Because who cares if by doing so you are denigrating Zamasu and the mastodontic feats he achieved, whatever sounuds cooler, right?