Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

You are being needless insistent on this matter, I’m not exactly interested in convincing you of anything, just pointing out that Toriyama approving or contributing to a side project doesn’t mean I should consider its additions.

Worthwhile, Broly doesn’t even smile or shows enjoyment in fighting Goku in the movie. He doesn’t enjoy fighting nor he does make such a distinction with Goku and Vegeta, wtf. Broly holds back despite his body getting all juiced up to fight Goku? Err… Let me tell you this, it’s not a matter of convenience to assume inconsistencies, it’s a matter of understanding how the story introduces the character and when it doesn’t make sense some aspects of it. Toriyama’s seal of approval has nothing to do with our free will to point the flaws in his work, he might not even be responsible for this particular tidbit.

Fine. So, you don’t see why Zamasu being Blue tier doesn’t make sense from a storytelling standpoint. He is overpowered by SS2, yet he can give SSB a run for its money. And at the same time Trunks has been Goku Black’s punching bag for roughly a year and just a quick sparring session with Vegeta makes him leaps and bounds stronger. No visual indication nor a direct nod. Like, okay. I might as well question the reasoning behind Zamasu wishing for more strength when all it should take to challenge Blue was wishing for immortality.

Yeah, storywise it makes absolutely no sense for Future Zamasu to be anywhere near SSG level, let alone SSB.

He just kept up with Goku because of immortality.

Bingo. Zamasu's "immortality/invincibility" was constantly stated in the narration as the reason behind his success.

[ZombieVito]

You are being needless insistent on this matter, I’m not exactly interested in convincing you of anything, just pointing out that Toriyama approving or contributing to a side project doesn’t mean I should consider its additions.

Worthwhile, Broly doesn’t even smile or shows enjoyment in fighting Goku in the movie. He doesn’t enjoy fighting nor he does make such a distinction with Goku and Vegeta, wtf. Broly holds back despite his body getting all juiced up to fight Goku? Err… Let me tell you this, it’s not a matter of convenience to assume inconsistencies, it’s a matter of understanding how the story introduces the character and when it doesn’t make sense some aspects of it. Toriyama’s seal of approval has nothing to do with our free will to point the flaws in his work, he might not even be responsible for this particular tidbit.

Fine. So, you don’t see why Zamasu being Blue tier doesn’t make sense from a storytelling standpoint. He is overpowered by SS2, yet he can give SSB a run for its money. And at the same time Trunks has been Goku Black’s punching bag for roughly a year and just a quick sparring session with Vegeta makes him leaps and bounds stronger. No visual indication nor a direct nod. Like, okay. I might as well question the reasoning behind Zamasu wishing for more strength when all it should take to challenge Blue was wishing for immortality.

Yeah, storywise it makes absolutely no sense for Future Zamasu to be anywhere near SSG level, let alone SSB.

He just kept up with Goku because of immortality.

Bingo. Zamasu's "immortality/invincibility" was constantly stated in the narration as the reason behind his success.

Yeah, we see Goku one shotting him many times only for his immortality to save him but oh no, just because he traded blows with Goku one time, he's Blue tier.

Ridiculous.

[Goku9001]

Yeah, storywise it makes absolutely no sense for Future Zamasu to be anywhere near SSG level, let alone SSB.

He just kept up with Goku because of immortality.

Bingo. Zamasu's "immortality/invincibility" was constantly stated in the narration as the reason behind his success.

Yeah, we see Goku one shotting him many times only for his immortality to save him but oh no, just because he traded blows with Goku one time, he's Blue tier.

Ridiculous.

Zamasu only got hit by Enraged Goku, Ikari Trunks, and SSJB Goku when Goku stated that was the case because Zamasu deliberately let his guard down. Outside of that, Zamasu traded blows, landed an attack on him, and evaded SSJB Goku's attacks constantly. He even caught SSJB Goku in a bearhug and pushed him against a wall which SSJB Goku couldn't physically force himself out. Feats are visual representations of what a character is capable of and we're explicitly shown via feats that Zamasu can pressure a Blue tier fighter without immortality.

These feats you presented are overblown and without context.

[Goku9001]

Broly's instinct was to kill Vegeta hence his immediate urge to attack him. Broly bears no such ill-will towards Goku and is a pure-blooded Saiyan.

Where this idea comes from? The movie spends a lot of time presenting Broly as a Saiyan who doesn’t enjoy fighting despite being a pure-blooded one. He only fights for the sake of his father.

No it doesn't. It only presents the idea that Broly wants his own autonomy despite his father's wishes. Battling happens to be at the center of it all given Paragus' desire for revenge, but not once does it explicitly present the idea that Broly doesn't like fighting. He's a pureblooded Saiyan which means it's in his nature to fight which is consistent with the narrative presented for Universes 6 and 7.

When did Broly smile during the fight? I just remember he doing that at the end of the movie, you know when he was able to actually listen to Goku. That moment strikes me more like “oh, this guy is being nice to me” than “I can’t wait to fight this super strong dude”.

Just look at the fight. He revs himself up in response to fighting Base Goku, after fighting Base Goku, and revs himself as Goku is about to enter Super Saiyan God. Broly explicitly mimics Goku's stance as well as Super Saiyan Goku's fighting style, smiles after thrashing SSJG Goku, and smiles after Goku powers up to Blue. His approach to combat was completely different against Vegeta where he had a more barbaric and savage fighting style. Though I guess you could argue that Broly stopped holding back after Goku restrained him using Super Saiyan God but Broly clearly still enjoyed the fight.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Everyone name the top 10 strongest characters in the series to date, at their peak. No deities and no fusions. Who have you got? I've got

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3/4. Goku and Vegeta
5. Moro
6/7. Broly and Jiren
8. Saganbo
9/10. Frieza and Top

Something like that.

[Yuji]

Everyone name the top 10 strongest characters in the series to date, at their peak. No deities and no fusions. Who have you got? I've got

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3/4. Goku and Vegeta
5. Moro
6/7. Broly and Jiren
8. Saganbo
9/10. Frieza and Top

Something like that.

I think the top 7 is pretty correct but afterwards it gets a bit iffy. I don't think Saganbo is that strong, nor Freeza from the last time we saw him at least. In the manga he's not that impressive despite supposedly stalemating ToP SSB Goku off-screen. He kinda gets ragdolled by Kale, and Gohan takes Kefla afterwards. Boo is worth a shout. If we're going by the anime continuity then Merged Zamas should also be in the top 10 (fusion but he's kind of an exception).

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Everyone name the top 10 strongest characters in the series to date, at their peak. No deities and no fusions. Who have you got? I've got

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3/4. Goku and Vegeta
5. Moro
6/7. Broly and Jiren
8. Saganbo
9/10. Frieza and Top

Something like that.

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3. Vegeta
4. Goku
5. Moro
6. Broly
7. Jiren
8. Saganbo
9. Gohan
10. Piccolo

As Yuji said, the top 7 is pretty straightforward. Vegeta is above Goku for giving Granolah a much harder time. Granted Goku worn himself out before Granolah could power up, but Granolah doesn’t really think much Goku’s power anyway. Goku’s recent performance also isn’t much since he was just baiting Gas and running away, with no hope of hand to hand combat.

Gohan is at least around SSJB level in the ToP, being the strongest on Earth after Goku and Vegeta, and got a solid power up in the 2 months training. Piccolo fares better than 17 against Saganbo, so to close the top 10 he’s Blue level too.

[ZombieVito]

Everyone name the top 10 strongest characters in the series to date, at their peak. No deities and no fusions. Who have you got? I've got

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3/4. Goku and Vegeta
5. Moro
6/7. Broly and Jiren
8. Saganbo
9/10. Frieza and Top

Something like that.

Shouldn't Toppo be number 8 because of his GoD form? I don't consider him a deity in that form but maybe you do.

I'm really curious how Freeza compares to Gohan and Piccolo from the Hero movie.

[TobyS]

Everyone name the top 10 strongest characters in the series to date, at their peak. No deities and no fusions. Who have you got? I've got

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3/4. Goku and Vegeta
5. Moro
6/7. Broly and Jiren
8. Saganbo
9/10. Frieza and Top

Something like that.

Shouldn't Toppo be number 8 because of his GoD form? I don't consider him a deity in that form but maybe you do.

I'm really curious how Freeza compares to Gohan and Piccolo from the Hero movie.

They are talking about manga stuff so Toppo doesn't have that horrible untoriyama like form

[ZombieVito]

They are talking about manga stuff so Toppo doesn't have that horrible untoriyama like form

I see no mention of manga only in the post.

The form can be unToriyama all you want but it was great. Much better than whatever the hell Toppo had in the manga. His elimination from the tournament was truly pathetic in the manga.

[Koitsukai]

Everyone name the top 10 strongest characters in the series to date, at their peak. No deities and no fusions. Who have you got? I've got

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3/4. Goku and Vegeta
5. Moro
6/7. Broly and Jiren
8. Saganbo
9/10. Frieza and Top

Something like that.

As of chapter 82, that is mostly correct. We don't know just how strong Goku's UI was before it started to fail on him, he might've been above Vegeta. Impossible to tell, his peak lasted moments.
I would say there's a bigger gap than usual between the 4th and the 5th place, though, if current UI Goku races against the clock, while vs Moro, with a weaker UI, he was still unscathered and using the form for much longer.
There probably is a bigger gap between the 7th and 8th place, too.

But, yeah, the last 3 spots are kinda unclear. I somehow doubt Freeza or Toppo would lose to Saganbo, but that's prejudice.
Gohan is the measurement, he stalemated Kefla. No SSB level character was actually worried about Kale or Kefla, they were all suppressing themselves, so she was probably not as strong as the strongest SSB fighters.
Saganbo was stomping an even stronger -possibly, now, on the strongest ToP SSB level - Gohan, so he should be probably on the SSBE realm that easily disposed of Toppo, who was on the highest end of SSB.
Freeza never showed anything special in the manga, besides implying Kale is no threat, but if the anime is anything to go by, then he is below Toppo.
Saganbo> Toppo > Freeza could work for me. I think Toppo might share the spot with him, but no Freeza.

Also, the movie might retcon Gohan's ToP performance. If he is just getting to SSB level, then he was only above SSG level during the ToP. Then again, probably the ToP never happened in the movie continuity, or not exactly as we've watched/read it.

[ZombieVito]

Everyone name the top 10 strongest characters in the series to date, at their peak. No deities and no fusions. Who have you got? I've got

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3/4. Goku and Vegeta
5. Moro
6/7. Broly and Jiren
8. Saganbo
9/10. Frieza and Top

Something like that.

As of chapter 82, that is mostly correct. We don't know just how strong Goku's UI was before it started to fail on him, he might've been above Vegeta. Impossible to tell, his peak lasted moments.
I would say there's a bigger gap than usual between the 4th and the 5th place, though, if current UI Goku races against the clock, while vs Moro, with a weaker UI, he was still unscathered and using the form for much longer.
There probably is a bigger gap between the 7th and 8th place, too.

But, yeah, the last 3 spots are kinda unclear. I somehow doubt Freeza or Toppo would lose to Saganbo, but that's prejudice.
Gohan is the measurement, he stalemated Kefla. No SSB level character was actually worried about Kale or Kefla, they were all suppressing themselves, so she was probably not as strong as the strongest SSB fighters.
Saganbo was stomping an even stronger -possibly, now, on the strongest ToP SSB level - Gohan, so he should be probably on the SSBE realm that easily disposed of Toppo, who was on the highest end of SSB.
Freeza never showed anything special in the manga, besides implying Kale is no threat, but if the anime is anything to go by, then he is below Toppo.
Saganbo> Toppo > Freeza could work for me. I think Toppo might share the spot with him, but no Freeza.

Also, the movie might retcon Gohan's ToP performance. If he is just getting to SSB level, then he was only above SSG level during the ToP. Then again, probably the ToP never happened in the movie continuity, or not exactly as we've watched/read it.

Broly implies the ToP happened like the anime since Goku fought Ribrianne and Kefla.

[dragonball0900]

Everyone name the top 10 strongest characters in the series to date, at their peak. No deities and no fusions. Who have you got? I've got

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3/4. Goku and Vegeta
5. Moro
6/7. Broly and Jiren
8. Saganbo
9/10. Frieza and Top

Something like that.

As how things are right now:

1. Gas (The strongest in the universe right now.)
2. Granolah (The strongest in the universe before Gas.)
3/4. Goku/Vegeta (With their UI and UE forms. Still weaker than Granolah.)
5. Moro (Stated to be strongest opponent Goku has ever fought up until that point.)
6. Broly (Weaker than SSBE Vegeta, who was weaker than Moro, but still stated in promo material to be the strongest opponent at the time, including Jiren.)
7. Jiren (Obviously.)
8. Saganbo (Far stronger than Gohan, who himself was far stronger than in the ToP when he was already not that far below SSB tier.)
9. Gohan (Far stronger than in the ToP, and got a rage boost that increased his power even further against Moro 73. I would still place him below Saganbo though.)
10. Frieza (Yes. I have him as weaker than Gohan, at least the Gohan after his rage boost. Note that this is Broly Movie Golden Frieza, it's likely that he could have gotten stronger as time went on.)

This list is mostly taking into account the manga continuity. If we count the anime, then Toppo would have to be 8th place with his GoD form. In the manga, Toppo was only as strong as ToP SSB tier since he didn't have the GoD form, and Golden Frieza in the Broly Movie was already stronger than in the ToP, so Toppo in the manga would have to be 11th place below Frieza. Hit is also an honorable mention as 12th place, specially in the manga which seemed to portray him as close (or even equal) to SSB tier. In the anime he seems slightly weaker than SSB tier though.

I'm also not taking into account the Super Hero movie. But if I had to, then Ultimate Piccolo and Gohan would have to be 9th and 10th. Goku, Vegeta and Broly would have to be higher too, depending on what the movie says about their power increases and also with how the Granolah arc could possibly end.

[picc]

Unless Goku's gotten a powerup, Vegeta has to logically be above him since Granolah's wish made him stronger than Goku, then Vegeta was briefly stronger than Granolah after his own powerup. It should be something like

Gas
Granolah
Vegeta
Goku
Moro
Broly
Jiren

[Hugo Boss]

not once does it explicitly present the idea that Broly doesn't like fighting.

Cheelai and Lemo’s conversation is explicitly about Broly not fighting because he wants to fight, but to accomplish his father’s revenge. He has no control over his actions there. That’s why they intervene.

Just look at the fight. He revs himself up in response to fighting Base Goku, after fighting Base Goku, and revs himself as Goku is about to enter Super Saiyan God. Broly explicitly mimics Goku's stance as well as Super Saiyan Goku's fighting style, smiles after thrashing SSJG Goku, and smiles after Goku powers up to Blue. His approach to combat was completely different against Vegeta where he had a more barbaric and savage fighting style. Though I guess you could argue that Broly stopped holding back after Goku restrained him using Super Saiyan God but Broly clearly still enjoyed the fight.

So, if I understood correctly, you are implying Broly held back to fight Goku to enjoy a moment he doesn’t even understand. None ever told him a fight could be fun, a far distant thought for him to have at that moment based on the story that was told about him. And for some reason holding back would make he enjoy that fight more. And more importantly that he had the capability of holding back, despite his power only spiking up.

Seriously. Nothing you are saying contradicts Broly powering-up to fight Goku after Vegeta. There is a whole scene where his body changes to a bigger version of him, basically completing his transformation to the raging form. For me, it just seems that you either watched a poorly subbed version of this movie or your memory is being influenced by the light novel. Broly’s savage fighting style only escalates. Right until the very end of the fight he doesn’t stop screaming and yelling. He does that for the rest of the movie, for god’s sake.

If I were to justify how Goku managed that, I would say he was exploiting Broly’s lack of experience with his newfound power. So while Broly was stronger he was having difficulty at putting that power into good use.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I forgot about Gohan actually. In the anime and manga during the ToP he appeared to be just below Blue level.

Top was Blue level and Gohan obviously wasn't a match for him but yeah I suppose with the two months of training he could have caught up if not surpassed that level so be could be in there.

Hard to say about Piccolo because it would have meant a ridiculous boost for him.

Also didn't take into account God of Destruction Top though I suppose that's part Deity. I would say he was stronger than Saganbo.

So then to try and give a more definitive ranking I'd go

1. Gas
2. Granolah
3. Vegeta
4. Goku
5. Moro
6. Broly
7. Jiren
8. Top
9. Saganbo
10. Frieza

I'd still have Frieza above Gohan. I don't think Gohan would have lasted an hour with Broly. He couldn't even last remotely that long with Saganbo. If anything Frieza could be above Saganbo as well.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

As far as Piccolo is concerned, he's only getting his Ultimate state that presumably puts him near or at Ultimate Gohan's level as of Super Hero, the latest point in the pre-EoZ timeline thus far, right?

With that in mind, we honestly can't put Piccolo anywhere close to SSB before then.

[ZombieVito]

If Toppo's GoD form makes him part deity then wouldn't that disqualify Goku and Vegeta as well?

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, Piccolo is only now getting up there, apparently, so that's that for the overanalyzed fight vs Saganbo.

If we go by the anime, then Gohan is nowhere near Freeza. By the Moro arc, Gohan should've closed most of the gap, even if Freeza got stronger.

ToP Gohan 8
ToP SSB/Freeza/Toppo 10
Moro Gohan 10
Full Power Toppo 10,5
ToP SSBE Vegeta/Saganbo +12

It all comes down to Gohan's growth, really. If it weren't for Goku having problems recognizing him, I wouldn't buy Gohan got that much stronger just by training -and perfecting teamwork strategies- with a Z level fighter.

[Thani]

It all comes down to Gohan's growth, really. If it weren't for Goku having problems recognizing him, I wouldn't buy Gohan got that much stronger just by training -and perfecting teamwork strategies- with a Z level fighter.

To be fair, Goku always says that when he encounters his friends after their training sessions. I'd just say it's his way to say "man, you're a lot stronger than last time!", which can mean anything in terms of where the character is now. Could be just as strong as the previous strongest character, or maybe just closer to it.

If we go by the Super Hero stickers, Gohan still hasn't quite reached his father's level, but he's getting there. Which works for me.