Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[wolflonnie]

I'm wondering if this is more accurate:

God of Destruction Tier
Beerus

Above SSBlue Tier
Jiren (Subject to Movement)
SSB Vegito
Merged Zamasu
SSB KK Goku

SSBlue Tier
Toppo
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta = SSRage Future Trunks = True Golden Frieza
Hit
SSRose Goku Black

SSGod Tier
SSBerserker Kale (Subject to Movement)
Android 17 (Subject to Movement)
Ultimate Gohan (Subject to Movement)

I put SSBerserker Kale, Android 17, and Ultimate Gohan at SSGod Tier because Goku's power could have been between SS3 and SSB. SSRose Goku Black I put lower because SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and SSRage Future Trunks were putting out power against Merged Zamasu; however, I am not entirely sure where he could be placed.

Seems accurate, other than SSR Trunks under SSR Black.
Also, SSB Vegito should be closer to Beerus. It has been confirmed that he's equal/a bit superior to him.

GoD tier

Beerus, Vegito

Above SSB tier

Merged Zamasu, possibly Jiren
SSB KK Goku

SSB tier

Toppo
SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, True Golden Frieza
Hit
SSRose Black Goku
SSRage Trunks

SSG tier

LSSJ Kale
Android 17
Ultimate Gohan

[Bullza]

I'd rank them as such

Jiren
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa
Merged Zamasu Half-Corrupted
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken | Toppo
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan God Goku

Whether Hit or Black is on top is hard to say. I also didn't include Sword of Hope Trunks because I'm not sure where he'd place but he could be near the top. I still couldn't include the likes of Gohan, Kale or 17.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Is Toppo above Goku and Vegeta SSB? I believe that Goku's use of Kaioken does not necessarily mean Toppo is at that level.
If he was at a disadvantage against the normal SSB, I doubt that the power he was hiding was double or something so absurd. As Goku said, he wanted to show what happens when he overcomes his limits

But Kale's purpose in that episode was just that. Create more Hype for Jiren. Some characters were not even far away desperate, just impressed. Nothing was said about her being equal to an SSB. Freeza was smiling after it was her transformation and Goku took no damage

Yeah, who knows. Maybe she is less than SSB, being out of control is what made her dangerous, so Jiren stepped in. Goku has nothing between SS3 and SSB to use, but she did throw his Kamehameha like nothing. I think we need more footage to position her. She is clearly above the SS forms, that's clear.

That's not to say that Toppo could not stop her, for example. In addition to her actions being considered an offense to the Pride Troopers, the aim was to demonstrate the power of Jiren. I agree that it is probably superior to SSJ3, but Goku just said it would release a little more power. The increase in power was not great

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Is Toppo above Goku and Vegeta SSB? I believe that Goku's use of Kaioken does not necessarily mean Toppo is at that level.
If he was at a disadvantage against the normal SSB, I doubt that the power he was hiding was double or something so absurd. As Goku said, he wanted to show what happens when he overcomes his limits

Goku states to Vegeta when they return from the Zen Exhibition Match that Toppo is equal to SSB. At this point, it can be inferred that Goku and Vegeta were pretty much equal in SSB as they usually are.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Is Toppo above Goku and Vegeta SSB? I believe that Goku's use of Kaioken does not necessarily mean Toppo is at that level.
If he was at a disadvantage against the normal SSB, I doubt that the power he was hiding was double or something so absurd. As Goku said, he wanted to show what happens when he overcomes his limits

Goku states to Vegeta when they return from the Zen Exhibition Match that Toppo is equal to SSB. At this point, it can be inferred that Goku and Vegeta were pretty much equal in SSB as they usually are.

He says he did not know if he could beat Toppo, even in the Blue form. Just as Toppo also said he did not know if Goku would win. I do not think you can say that Toppo is stronger than them. It was well implied, they are practically of the same level

[Legion]

Is nonsense put Jiren above Vegito, Beerus etc, since we still don't know anything about him.

And at this point, i hope to see the Hakaishins full power, because is impossible rank them.

[Lord Beerus]

I'd rank them as such

Jiren
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa
Merged Zamasu Half-Corrupted
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken | Toppo
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan God Goku

Whether Hit or Black is on top is hard to say. I also didn't include Sword of Hope Trunks because I'm not sure where he'd place but he could be near the top. I still couldn't include the likes of Gohan, Kale or 17.

I wouldn't place any if the Hakaishin below any of the mortals yet. Their strength is still incredibly ambiguous in the show considering we've never seen them fight seriously or have any implication of any of Hakaishin fighting at full power.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I changed it up to this:

God of Destruction Tier
Beerus
SSB Vegito

Above SSBlue Tier
Jiren (Subject to Movement)
Merged Zamasu Half-Corrupted
Merged Zamasu
SSB KK Goku

SSBlue Tier
Toppo
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta = True Golden Frieza
Hit = SSRage Future Trunks
SSRose Goku Black

SSGod Tier
SSBerserker Kale (Subject to Movement)
Android 17 (Subject to Movement)
Ultimate Gohan (Subject to Movement)
SBG Goku = SBG Vegeta = Final Form Frieza
SSG Radiance Goku
SSG Goku

Reasoning:
[spoiler]In the SSGod Tier, we have SSG Goku as the weakest. This makes sense. Then in Ep. 14, Goku transforms into the very powerful SS1 that we do not ever see again after this battle. Beerus is explaining how Goku's power increased after he absorbed the SSG power and the radiance is alive inside him. Therefore I put SSG Radiance Goku above SSG Goku. When SBG Goku is fighting Final Form Frieza, they are practically equal. SBG Vegeta would be equal as well. Krillin and Gohan comment how Goku is different from his fight with Beerus, plus all that training would boost them to be stronger. Now, this should not become a Two-Base Theory debate; this is only my placing these forms here because in BoG and RoF they did exist.

Moving on, based on the few punches that Ultimate Gohan got on SSB Goku in Ep. 90, I put him in the SSGod Tier range. He may be weaker than SSGod Goku, but I feel like the red-haired form was a baseline for anyone in god tier. However, since Ultimate Gohan's fight against SSB Goku was so brief and Gohan had asked Goku to power-up, I was conservative and put him below Android 17. #17 forced Goku to use SSB (unlike Krillin and Gohan). Their struggle was more real, hence my placing him above Ultimate Gohan. SSBerserker Kale tanked a blue kamehameha and **seemed** to do rather well. I put this group here though because Ultimate Gohan had trained to get stronger from Super Buu level, so this was just a guess at where they go.

In the SSBlue Tier, SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta are equal -- that is a given. We saw True Golden Frieza and SSB Goku knock out each other. Whis then commented on their being equal in power. So these three are equal. I put Hit below them because of Goku's raw power that he was able to output to overwhelm Hit's time storage. Hit was putting in effort in that fight, but we will see later in the ToP arc. SSRage Future Trunks was equal to Hit because he was close in power to SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta, and he was assisting in the assault against Merged Zamasu. He had to bring something to the table; plus, Saiyans get stronger as they fight and the three Saiyans were fighting a very tough battle. They kept improving beyond SSRose Goku Black, who ceased to exist. Hit had been improving as well, so I believe at the current Ep. 101, SSRose Goku Black is the standard for this tier.

Goku was not able to beat Toppo with a pointblank blue kamehameha, so he has to be stronger than Goku in SSBlue. This got Goku excited to power-up and use SSB KK, which I do think is stronger than Toppo because he saw this power before the Grand Priest paused the match. He told Belmod that he may not be able to win. SSB KK Goku did some damage to Merged Zamasu, so he has to be close to that power. They needed SSB Vegito to win though, just like Shin said they needed more power. The Sword of Hope probably did not power-up Trunks, but rather it was the genki inside it that killed Merged Zamasu, who was incredibly evil. I put Jiren above Merged Zamasu because Goku is going to need a new form to beat Jiren and potara earings are forbidden from the tournament. Beerus is clearly above everyone and SSB Vegito was theorized to be very close. I personally still think he is below, but just slightly.[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

From the looks of this image

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Frieza seems to be more powerful than Murichim who is quite possibly Universe 10's strongest fighter. So like Universe 3 and 9 it would be another Universe where nobody was above Base Saiyan level.

Would make sense, the other fighters from Universe 10 have been unspectacular so far.

[Marlowe89]

SSRage Future Trunks was equal to Hit because he was close in power to SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta, and he was assisting in the assault against Merged Zamasu. He had to bring something to the table; plus, Saiyans get stronger as they fight and the three Saiyans were fighting a very tough battle. They kept improving beyond SSRose Goku Black, who ceased to exist.

I'm not too sure about that. Super Trunks assisted in the fight against Fused Zamasu, although there's no indication that he improved substantially in the same vein as Vegeta's boosts or even Black's boosts during that particular skirmish. His feat entailed assisting Vegeta, but I wouldn't say it's anything on par with what Goku did against Fused Zamasu by himself. I think he's likely still below Black.

My ranking would probably go something like this:

Jiren (maybe?)
Vegito Blue
Beerus
Champa
Half-Corrupted Fused Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku
Toppo
Fused Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
Super Trunks
Hit (only accounting for raw strength here)
Super Saiyan God's power

[ssbgoku]

Hmm, I just wondered about this topic of god essence ssj goku being able to preserve ssg power and even supress it. When we have reached this point, after many so many episodes of super I finally came up with another possible view on this topic(although initially I strongly believe both goku and vegeta were simply meant to be that strong, even in base).

1) First, let me remind you about concept of holding ki inside and not letting it out of body. It was pointed out by Whis and it seems it hold more value then I initially thought. Trying to get to the point, I believe after ssg transformation run out, goku unconsciounsly switched to ssj form as it was most stabile and yet closed to ssg form, that why this form seems to get used for both Vegeta and goku to reach ssb, instead of base, ss2 or ss3. In other words I called it false ssb state, possibly something akin to rage ssj Trunks as he also had blue Ki around his body (leaking out divine ki) and more far from body yellow fire.

2) When he reverted to base it was probably all power gathered from false ssb along with rage( to not lose his close and let beerus destroy earth), so I would say, he didn't matter this point. Now when goku arrived and found out vegeta on beerus planet already training with whis, then to me it seemed like this base vegeta only suprassed his bog ss self, possibly ss2 but not this mutated temporary power up.

3) Now in rof when both Krillin and gohan commented out about base goku's incredible power being higher then anything before, I believe Krillin only compared it to base goku from saga, last point when he remember him(or from bog if they met). In case of goku(base, ss) form post god essence there were only two instances when their Ki was could be felt by Krillin and gohan, so I go by rof base Saiyan ~ bog(pre god) ss Saiyan, so final form freeza was little above goku/vegeta base form. That explains why gohan could be weaker then his buu saga self(before z sword) and why good buu was kept out of this movie, as he would possibly be even above base sayians and maybe final form frieeza or close to him.

4) It also explains goku going through yellow aura and even lightining cracking around before he was enveloped in blue essence and become ssb. Then it was rosat and after both goku/vegeta came out of it, they both considered buu crazy strong while enraged which would make them at least > bog ss3 goku (fat buu could be close, including his stamina and regeneration)

5) Now we are only left with two apperance of stronger base form which is monaka beerus vs goku and copy vegeta arc. assuming that both goku and vegeta have made big gains through tournament they could be super buu level. In case of monaka beerus he was just excited and eager to fight(no matter how strong opponent is), and beerus knew goku could transform.

6) in Copy vegeta arc both goku and vegeta became a bit stronger then buu arc ultimate gohan level, but still below buutenks I guess that why vegeta(anime exeggerated him not putting up his arms to block), but above gotenks still.

7) Lest arcs are them fooling around and holding back for sake of fun. This is how I see it. What do you think guys ?

[omaro34]

Lord Popo will erase the Zenos.

[Bullza]

What do you think guys ?

Well Vegeta is pretty straightforward. He went to Beerus' planet and trained intensely for six months and grew stronger than ever, I'd say he was likely at the strongest he'd ever been by far but certainly much weaker than Super Saiyan God.

Where the confusion comes from is that Goku is about as strong, so he too is much stronger than he ever was in Z but he's not as strong as Super Saiyan God. So I don't know why that is exactly.

Then they were thrown into the dimension with God Ki and that's where they learned to become Super Saiyan God on their own or just Super Saiyan Blue.

So there does appear to be just the one Base form, it's neither at Buu saga level or God levels. With that in mind there's nothing really contradictory about it until after the Future Trunks saga.

I do think we've probably overcomplicated it more than need be.

[omaro34]

What do you think guys ?

I do think we've probably overcomplicated it more than need be.

Amen. Strength in Dragonball is almost always based on the writer's convenience. Goku was in that healing chamber in the Freeza arc for episodes on end because and then came out stronger than ever because it was convenient to the show.

Freeza's return in RoF being stronger than ever is just a lame reason but it makes the story more convenient for Freeza to challenge the heroes.

Every enemy they face is always on the level of the protagonists. Always. That's why I watch Dragonball for the character interactions and story more so than just fights.

I'll tell you what's interesting though: Creating scenarios. Like if Piccolo and Vegeta are their Android arc counterparts for example, and have equal power, exactly the same power level, who would win a death match? It would be all based on techniques, durability, stamina, level of experience, anger, etc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I also think we put god-level, at least its lower spectrum, on too much of a pedestal.

Oh sure, Beerus, Whis, and similar beings were always gonna be untouchable, but lower god-level, like SSG, SSB, etc., has consistently been demonstrated as not something overly untouchable by the likes of mortals.

Being a few thousand times stronger than Majin Buu, the previous greatest threat, is a major milestone but not an untouchable one. Hell, going by GT, this was already done beforehand with SS4. If characters can reach Majin Buu's level, then tap into transformations or the like to boost their power thousands of times, that being lower god-level is an acceptable lowball, in my own personal opinion.

[Marlowe89]

I also think we put god-level, at least its lower spectrum, on too much of a pedestal.

Oh sure, Beerus, Whis, and similar beings were always gonna be untouchable, but lower god-level, like SSG, SSB, etc., has consistently been demonstrated as not something overly untouchable by the likes of mortals.

Being a few thousand times stronger than Majin Buu, the previous greatest threat, is a major milestone but not an untouchable one. Hell, going by GT, this was already done beforehand with SS4. If characters can reach Majin Buu's level, then tap into transformations or the like to boost their power thousands of times, that being lower god-level is an acceptable lowball, in my own personal opinion.

Strictly speaking, not even Beerus' level is untouchable by mortals as Whis clearly implied during this arc. However, a mortal approaching God-level is supposed to be an extreme rarity in the series which is strongly alluded to by various pieces of dialogue and from the fact that there aren't many characters in the multiverse achieving that level of strength.

I wouldn't say GT ever managed to broach this tier, to be honest. Omega Shenron was said to be an eventual universe-destroyer in the series and a galaxy-buster in the GT Perfect Files, yet Super Saiyan God Goku and a somewhat restrained Beerus were capable of destroying the entire universe in a much shorter timeframe.

It's definitely not something I'd call a lowball by any means, and I can understand why fans are hesitant to believe any Jack and Joe can get that high.

[Benedetto12]

I changed it up to this:

God of Destruction Tier
Beerus
SSB Vegito

Above SSBlue Tier
Jiren (Subject to Movement)
Merged Zamasu Half-Corrupted
Merged Zamasu
SSB KK Goku

SSBlue Tier
Toppo
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta = True Golden Frieza
Hit = SSRage Future Trunks
SSRose Goku Black

SSGod Tier
SSBerserker Kale (Subject to Movement)
Android 17 (Subject to Movement)
Ultimate Gohan (Subject to Movement)
SBG Goku = SBG Vegeta = Final Form Frieza
SSG Radiance Goku
SSG Goku

Mine would be like this:

GoD tier:
Beerus
SSB Vegetto
Merged Zamasu

Above SSB Tier:
Jiren
SSBKK Goku
"Spirit Sword" Trunks

SSB Tier:
Hit
Golden Freeza = SSB Vegeta = SSB Goku
Toppo
SSR Black = SSIkari Trunks

Below SSB Tier:
Ultimate Gohan
LLSJ Kale
17
Final Form Freeza
BG Vegeta = BG Goku

[Bullza]

a galaxy-buster in the GT Perfect Files

He was? I've never seen that statement before though I never looked into the Perfect Files much.

Yeah though, it's possible for Mortals to surpass the Gods but amongst all the characters in the series, Frieza, Hit, Toppo and Jiren are the only mortals you could say for definite are God level.

Maybe Gohan, Kale and Android 17 could be but we don't know that for a fact yet.

[omaro34]

a galaxy-buster in the GT Perfect Files

Maybe Gohan, Kale and Android 17 could be but we don't know that for a fact yet.

Gohan I get. He was foreshadowed to be this absolute progidy his whole life. Kale I get to sell more toys and she's new. But 17 being that strong after only training off screen seems far fetched. I know he fought Goku when he was blue, but I'll never understand it. The cyborgs have infinite energy and I understand that, but 18 should have been much stronger than she was then because she benefits from the same advantages as her brother.

I guess it's the same thing they did with Freeza.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I also think we put god-level, at least its lower spectrum, on too much of a pedestal.

Oh sure, Beerus, Whis, and similar beings were always gonna be untouchable, but lower god-level, like SSG, SSB, etc., has consistently been demonstrated as not something overly untouchable by the likes of mortals.

Being a few thousand times stronger than Majin Buu, the previous greatest threat, is a major milestone but not an untouchable one. Hell, going by GT, this was already done beforehand with SS4. If characters can reach Majin Buu's level, then tap into transformations or the like to boost their power thousands of times, that being lower god-level is an acceptable lowball, in my own personal opinion.

Beerus is not untouchable for mortals for a long time.

Maybe in the Battle Of Gods era and even in RoF, but not currently.
It seems absurd to some, but Goku, Vegeta, Hitto (anime), Golden Freeza, Toppo (even he is a candidate for God of Destruction) are much closer to the powers of a God of Destruction than we imagine.