Simere wrote:
You always have great questions, and if I'm not mistaken, the answer is: zero times.
You are mistaken. Goku really did have a habit to hold back at the beginning of a fight in DBZ. It was filler & movie fights, but it still is DBZ, and Toei is writing the episodes based on that.
Goku didn't go all out against Nappa, Vegeta and Freezer (he was saving Kaio-Ken) and when he first fought Perfect Cell they both started out holding back. Goku also didn't go full power from the start against Yakon and he preferred to enjoy his fight with Vegeta as a SSJ2 instead of ending it quickly with SSJ3.
I haven't had any problem with Goku holding back in Super, as he quickly went SSJ3 when fighting Beerus, then after a warm-up spar with Freezer he went Blue. In the U6 arc he saved stamina because he noticed Hit, then against him he went full power after figuring out his Tokitobashi. Also, Goku went Blue as soon as Black stabbed Vegeta.
So in all the major fights Goku has never fucked around in Super. Though I don't quite get why he didn't knock out Kale (maybe he underestimated her power and resistance) but at least it was stated both Goku and Vegeta are trying to save stamina in the ToP.
I don't think that Goku is acting all that differently in battle than before.
The question was has anything like this even happened to such a degree?
TheMikado wrote:The question was has anything like this even happened to such a degree?
And then its revealed that Goku was holding back?
Well there was this
When he was still holding back because he was using his Match level instead of his Battle level.
And he also held back when he fought Golden Frieza back in the Resurrection F saga and he was being beaten to shit.
Yes but the difference being Goku powered up once and fought evenly.
Versus Kale he powered up twice, once into SSJ2, then again into SSB and was still soundly beaten down. Same holds for Golden Frieza who was also legitimately stronger than Goku even at his full power. In no way did Goku take a beat down from a significantly weaker opponent for the sake of "holding back". He powered up and and fought them at full power.
TheMikado wrote:Versus Kale he powered up twice, once into SSJ2, then again into SSB and was still soundly beaten down. Same holds for Golden Frieza who was also legitimately stronger than Goku even at his full power. In no way did Goku take a beat down from a significantly weaker opponent for the sake of "holding back". He powered up and and fought them at full power.
He was already a Super Saiyan 2 when he started fighting Kale wasn't he?
It's also different in that Goku could afford to go up to full power afterward with Tien and Frieza whereas here he's still in the early part of the Tournament and he's supposed to be pacing himself so he wouldn't use his full power this early on.
Either way we have seen him hold back and then get stomped before.
TheMikado wrote:The question was has anything like this even happened to such a degree?
And then its revealed that Goku was holding back?
Have you watched Goku's fights with Coola, Metal Coola, #13, Hildegarn? Or against Paikuhan, Fake Ultimate Gohan, even Pure Boo? He was fighting all of them in a lower form instead of using his most powerful form, and he was getting his ass beaten. He was even holding back as Vegetto against Boo, when he fought him at base. He was even doing this in GT. And unlike all these fights, Kale couldn't put a scratch on SSB Goku's face even though she was hitting him so violently. In fact, she couldn't even scratch SS2 Goku. And Goku himself said that he was using only a little more power than he did as a SS2, while SSB is massively stronger than SSB, so why do people still doubt that he was holding back?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheMikado wrote:Versus Kale he powered up twice, once into SSJ2, then again into SSB and was still soundly beaten down. Same holds for Golden Frieza who was also legitimately stronger than Goku even at his full power. In no way did Goku take a beat down from a significantly weaker opponent for the sake of "holding back". He powered up and and fought them at full power.
He was already a Super Saiyan 2 when he started fighting Kale wasn't he?
It's also different in that Goku could afford to go up to full power afterward with Tien and Frieza whereas here he's still in the early part of the Tournament and he's supposed to be pacing himself so he wouldn't use his full power this early on.
Either way we have seen him hold back and then get stomped before.
I won't split hairs but he explicitly says that he's holding back in those circumstances.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheMikado wrote:The question was has anything like this even happened to such a degree?
And then its revealed that Goku was holding back?
Have you watched Goku's fights with Coola, Metal Coola, #13, Hildegarn? Or against Paikuhan, Fake Ultimate Gohan, even Pure Boo? He was fighting all of them in a lower form instead of using his most powerful form, and he was getting his ass beaten. He was even holding back as Vegetto against Boo, when he fought him at base. He was even doing this in GT. And unlike all these fights, Kale couldn't put a scratch on SSB Goku's face even though she was hitting him so violently. In fact, she couldn't even scratch SS2 Goku. And Goku himself said that he was using only a little more power than he did as a SS2, while SSB is massively stronger than SSB, so why do people still doubt that he was holding back?
Have we really gotten to the point of using "non-canon" GT and movie characters just to justify actions taken? Those circumstances were stupid then and they are stupid now. Again, I won't split hairs despite originally asking about Z because I'm aware of those odd circumstances including the Dragonball one against Tien and as I stated above the context was certainly different. Goku was not completely stomped, His attempts to defend himself were not completely ineffectual. There has been nothing like this where an enemy completely and thoroughly tanks Goku's attacks, stomps Goku in the ground thoroughly without any retaliation whatsoever, do not STATE he is holding back, USES BOTH HIS STRONGEST FORM AND STRONGEST ATTACK and then the audience somehow comes to the conclusion he was clearly holding back in this circumstance. This have never been done before.
The closest we have is GT, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv2KzLje7nc
but even then you can see clear difference in execution. He states, just like in Dragonball, Z, and every other time he was holding back and then becomes in control of the situation or clearly fights as his maximum.
Why would he continually power-up to incorrect levels?? Goku's been doing this for decades?? He's not an amateur fighter. There's just no excuse for Goku not to power up to the appropriate level to stop Kale's assault quickly and be done with it if he could.
TheMikado wrote:Have we really gotten to the point of using "non-canon" GT and movie characters just to justify actions taken? Those circumstances were stupid then and they are stupid now. Again, I won't split hairs despite originally asking about Z because I'm aware of those odd circumstances including the Dragonball one against Tien and as I stated above the context was certainly different. Goku was not completely stomped, His attempts to defend himself were not completely ineffectual. There has been nothing like this where an enemy completely and thoroughly tanks Goku's attacks, stomps Goku in the ground thoroughly without any retaliation whatsoever, do not STATE he is holding back, USES BOTH HIS STRONGEST FORM AND STRONGEST ATTACK and then the audience somehow comes to the conclusion he was clearly holding back in this circumstance. This have never been done before.
The closest we have is GT, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv2KzLje7nc
but even then you can see clear difference in execution. He states, just like in Dragonball, Z, and every other time he was holding back and then becomes in control of the situation or clearly fights as his maximum.
Why would he continually power-up to incorrect levels?? Goku's been doing this for decades?? He's not an amateur fighter. There's just no excuse for Goku not to power up to the appropriate level to stop Kale's assault quickly and be done with it if he could.
I'm not saying it isn't stupid, but this is how Toei wrote Goku back then, and this is how they still keep writing him. I don't like it personally, but saying that it's inconsistent with how Goku is portrayed back in DBZ (not the original manga) is just wrong.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheMikado wrote:Have we really gotten to the point of using "non-canon" GT and movie characters just to justify actions taken? Those circumstances were stupid then and they are stupid now. Again, I won't split hairs despite originally asking about Z because I'm aware of those odd circumstances including the Dragonball one against Tien and as I stated above the context was certainly different. Goku was not completely stomped, His attempts to defend himself were not completely ineffectual. There has been nothing like this where an enemy completely and thoroughly tanks Goku's attacks, stomps Goku in the ground thoroughly without any retaliation whatsoever, do not STATE he is holding back, USES BOTH HIS STRONGEST FORM AND STRONGEST ATTACK and then the audience somehow comes to the conclusion he was clearly holding back in this circumstance. This have never been done before.
The closest we have is GT, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv2KzLje7nc
but even then you can see clear difference in execution. He states, just like in Dragonball, Z, and every other time he was holding back and then becomes in control of the situation or clearly fights as his maximum.
Why would he continually power-up to incorrect levels?? Goku's been doing this for decades?? He's not an amateur fighter. There's just no excuse for Goku not to power up to the appropriate level to stop Kale's assault quickly and be done with it if he could.
I'm not saying it isn't stupid, but this is how Toei wrote Goku back then, and this is how they still keep writing him. I don't like it personally, but saying that it's inconsistent with how Goku is portrayed back in DBZ (not the original manga) is just wrong.
But it is inconsistent with Z. The closest Goku ever got to that the Majin Vegeta scenario which he still gets flack for...Its criticized to this day so it being a fresh problem shouldn't surprise anyone if the one time it was even close to a similar situation is criticized to hell for it. It really was just unneccessary, the whole exchange really served no purpose. If it was to show how powerful Jiren is, what does it matter if we have no idea how power Kale is because Goku was holding back. Basically the intent of the scene is not apparent because if Goku was holding back there's nothing it did at all to advance the plot of give a sense that Jiren is overwhelmingly powerful. If Goku was holding back so much you could easily make the argument Goku could have done the exact same thing, or that he could have finger flicked her as SSB at any moment. The scene, in the context of Goku holding back, accomplished nothing narratively which is why it doesn't make sense in the greater narrative.
Do you want to talk about Dragon Ball Z (291 episodes, 2 TV Specials, 15 movies), or about the original manga? Because you keep talking about the original manga, yet you call it DBZ. And Dragon Ball Super (the anime) is written by the same people that wrote DBZ.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Man so much happens in these episodes it's hard to remember what happened afterward.
- Frieza was much stronger than Muchirim. I thought he'd be a standout but he was another chump. Was he supposed to be the strongest in Universe 10?
- Android 18 easily beat the guy who could alter his weight.
- Kale can turn back into a regular Super Saiyan as well as the Super Saiyan Berserker form.
- That one Pride Trooper was beating the crap out of Base Caulifla.
- The four Pride Troopers seemed to push back against Super Saiyan (2?) Caulifla and Super Saiyan Kale but then was overwhelmed when she went Berserk form. Wasn't an instant stomp though.
- The fat teletubby was fighting Super Saiyan Vegeta.
I can't remember what else. Goku didn't do very well but they did team up on him and he was caught in the bear grip, which also happened with Nink.
I didn't want to beat a dead horse but I really can't resist; ever since this arc began, these episodes have only reaffirmed over and over and over and over again that base Goku isn't nearly as strong as some people want him to be. He had an immensely tough time with the heavy Pride Trooper even before the smaller one provided assistance, yet 18 -- predictably, if you ask me -- trashes him.
I think it's definitely clear that they're keeping 18 in the "Super Saiyan" tier, exactly like DBZ.
Bullza wrote:Man so much happens in these episodes it's hard to remember what happened afterward.
- Frieza was much stronger than Muchirim. I thought he'd be a standout but he was another chump. Was he supposed to be the strongest in Universe 10?
- Android 18 easily beat the guy who could alter his weight.
- Kale can turn back into a regular Super Saiyan as well as the Super Saiyan Berserker form.
- That one Pride Trooper was beating the crap out of Base Caulifla.
- The four Pride Troopers seemed to push back against Super Saiyan (2?) Caulifla and Super Saiyan Kale but then was overwhelmed when she went Berserk form. Wasn't an instant stomp though.
- The fat teletubby was fighting Super Saiyan Vegeta.
I can't remember what else. Goku didn't do very well but they did team up on him and he was caught in the bear grip, which also happened with Nink.
It looked like 17 was getting the shit beaten out of him in the NEP and maaaaybe Piccolo. Someone in purple was getting spun around. Roshi and Tien also beat that bootleg Cell bug guy.
Man, like half of the Pride Troopers are full of scrubs.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Bullza wrote:Man so much happens in these episodes it's hard to remember what happened afterward.
- Frieza was much stronger than Muchirim. I thought he'd be a standout but he was another chump. Was he supposed to be the strongest in Universe 10?
- Android 18 easily beat the guy who could alter his weight.
- Kale can turn back into a regular Super Saiyan as well as the Super Saiyan Berserker form.
- That one Pride Trooper was beating the crap out of Base Caulifla.
- The four Pride Troopers seemed to push back against Super Saiyan (2?) Caulifla and Super Saiyan Kale but then was overwhelmed when she went Berserk form. Wasn't an instant stomp though.
- The fat teletubby was fighting Super Saiyan Vegeta.
I can't remember what else. Goku didn't do very well but they did team up on him and he was caught in the bear grip, which also happened with Nink.
It looked like 17 was getting the shit beaten out of him in the NEP and maaaaybe Piccolo. Someone in purple was getting spun around. Roshi and Tien also beat that bootleg Cell bug guy.
17 got scratches but he looked fine after that.
Piccolo... it's not clear.
ZombieVito wrote:This episode once again confirms Saiyan beyond God is a thing.
That doesn't really make sense anymore. It does look like there's just the one Base form which is realistically what the show was going for.
He's just not fighting seriously, like when he fought Frost in his Third Form. He's having trouble with scrubs here but then the opening shows him fighting against Jiren so that's probably him fighting at full power.
