Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

So (asking all the "2-base theory" supporters) at this point, what would make you believe that there is only one base, stronger than buu but nowhere near SSG?
Also, does Gohan saying "I want to show my current power level" confirm that he is stronger than ever?

I personally think that everything is heading to confirm the silent retcon theory/ two-base theory (which are kind of the same, they all indicate TOEI dropped the previously suggested plot points). But anyway, a scenario in which Goku's base usually is not particularly higher than his Buu saga base. We already had Super Saiyan Gohan who was basically confirmed to be stronger than Goku's current base or even comparable to his current Super Saiyan form, Buu stomping Basil and now we have Gohan fighting Lavenda in his Super Saiyan form again, the same Super Saiyan form that went toe-to-toe with Super Saiyan Goku just a couple of episodes ago. Like ZombieVito said, it appears more or less doubtful for Lavenda to be a whoppin' dozens or hundreds of times stronger than Basil. Hence, Super Saiyan Gohan and Mr. Buu should most likely be around the same tier, which would mean Super Saiyan Goku himself is around that same tier.

I am currently believing the One-Base Theory with a very strong Base around SSGod Goku BoG. I am also completely fine with a Retcon of Goku's power where SSBlue is only above SSGod Goku BoG.

All I want is an explanation of where his power level is at. If they give any reason, I am happy. Because any reason is better than no reason at all.

[LowRyder2005]

So (asking all the "2-base theory" supporters) at this point, what would make you believe that there is only one base, stronger than buu but nowhere near SSG?
Also, does Gohan saying "I want to show my current power level" confirm that he is stronger than ever?

I personally think that everything is heading to confirm the silent retcon theory/ two-base theory (which are kind of the same, they all indicate TOEI dropped the previously suggested plot points). But anyway, a scenario in which Goku's base usually is not particularly higher than his Buu saga base. We already had Super Saiyan Gohan who was basically confirmed to be stronger than Goku's current base or even comparable to his current Super Saiyan form, Buu stomping Basil and now we have Gohan fighting Lavenda in his Super Saiyan form again, the same Super Saiyan form that went toe-to-toe with Super Saiyan Goku just a couple of episodes ago. Like ZombieVito said, it appears more or less doubtful for Lavenda to be a whoppin' dozens or hundreds of times stronger than Basil. Hence, Super Saiyan Gohan and Mr. Buu should most likely be around the same tier, which would mean Super Saiyan Goku himself is around that same tier.

I am currently believing the One-Base Theory with a very strong Base around SSGod Goku BoG. I am also completely fine with a Retcon of Goku's power where SSBlue is only above SSGod Goku BoG.

All I want is an explanation of where his power level is at. If they give any reason, I am happy. Because any reason is better than no reason at all.

Same here, more or less. You're not alone.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I am currently believing the One-Base Theory with a very strong Base around SSGod Goku BoG. I am also completely fine with a Retcon of Goku's power where SSBlue is only above SSGod Goku BoG.

All I want is an explanation of where his power level is at. If they give any reason, I am happy. Because any reason is better than no reason at all.

Same here, more or less. You're not alone.

I am kind of hoping that when Goku fights Bergamo we will have Elder Kai, Supreme Kai, Beerus, and Whis talking about his power level.

Elder Kai did that during SSB KKx10 Goku vs. Hit, and we learned where Kaioken had been this whole time.
Whis mentioned to Goku how Shin and Beerus have their lives intertwined.
Goku talked to Supreme Kai and we learned how Whis is an Angel.
Gowasu explained why Vegito defused in the Buu Saga.

We seem to be learning a lot of key tidbits from these characters, so I hope Elder Kai asks why Goku is so weak compared to when he fought Beerus. Then Whis could reply with him losing the SSGod power by traveling through time. It caused his ki to become more unstable and lost it.

[Mik Darko]

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[Bullza]

I'd be happy enough with them showing Base Goku as being roughly as strong as Mystic Gohan. That would keep some of the consistency going and then all these new characters don't have to be dozens of even hundreds of times stronger than God which just boggles the mind really.

Of course the next thing would be is Goku only God level when he's Blue or when he uses any Super Saiyan because they said Super Saiyan surpassed God.

[Beyond]

I wouldn't be surprised if the saiyans are buu arc level, gohan too because of his training, and Piccolo just got nerfed to below namek Frieza.

[namekiansaiyan]

I think most of team Universe 7 could beat Basil. Buu was messing around and never got hurt so I think only Tien, Krillin and Roshi would have a problem going based on what we know so far.

[The gr]

I think most of team Universe 7 could beat Basil. Buu was messing around and never got hurt so I think only Tien, Krillin and Roshi would have a problem going based on what we know so far.

Uh no he could also stomp #17 and #18 with ease, and I don't think piccolo could defeat him, or unless I'm underestimating piccolo,I seriously want to know how strong is piccolo in DBS,in what tier he stands

but yeah vegeta,Goku,Mr buu and Gohan could defeat him, but I have to wait for episode 80 to fully judge Gohan

[Marlowe89]

So (asking all the "2-base theory" supporters) at this point, what would make you believe that there is only one base, stronger than buu but nowhere near SSG?
Also, does Gohan saying "I want to show my current power level" confirm that he is stronger than ever?

I personally think that everything is heading to confirm the silent retcon theory/ two-base theory (which are kind of the same, they all indicate TOEI dropped the previously suggested plot points). But anyway, a scenario in which Goku's base usually is not particularly higher than his Buu saga base. We already had Super Saiyan Gohan who was basically confirmed to be stronger than Goku's current base or even comparable to his current Super Saiyan form, Buu stomping Basil and now we have Gohan fighting Lavenda in his Super Saiyan form again, the same Super Saiyan form that went toe-to-toe with Super Saiyan Goku just a couple of episodes ago. Like ZombieVito said, it appears more or less doubtful for Lavenda to be a whoppin' dozens or hundreds of times stronger than Basil. Hence, Super Saiyan Gohan and Mr. Buu should most likely be around the same tier, which would mean Super Saiyan Goku himself is around that same tier.

As a sidenote: if one had to judge visually, I believe Mr. Buu and Basil seemed far stronger than most of the contestants from U7 (curiously, Super Saiyan's Vegeta fully powered Final Flash and Mr. Buu's Kamehameha, which were some of the most intense visual feats, literally appeared to hold kind of a strikingly similar destructive power).

The question: no, I believe it looks like a rather contentious jump in logic. It merely means that Gohan made some progress from some point in time. The anime went out of its way multiple times to suggest Gohan was if anything, weaker than his Buu saga self (from ROF, to Future Trunks arc). Honestly, I think it's a no-brainer: they're hyping the return of Ultimate Gohan for a reason, with a big "Gohan is finally serious again" to boot. Gohan is most likely just touching his old power again.

Ssj Gohan (ROF) was as strong as Mystic Gohan.

That was fanmade, gratuitous hype. There is nothing in ROF factually suggesting that; most likely Super Saiyan Gohan is just as strong as... the usual Super Saiyan Gohan. He could draw either too little or not a single shred of his former "Ultimate" power and preferred to use Super Saiyan to have a bigger power output; of course, though, because of lacking training he could barely sustain the form anymore. This is consistent with Goku and Vegeta favoring Buu and Piccolo in the U7 tournament, Trunks talking about Gohan like someone with a less impressive ki than his Cell Games self among other things.

This entire post rather eloquently sums up my opinion on the matter - in short, the "Trio De Dangers" are at the very least not dozens of times stronger than each other, Majin Buu's strength is still perfectly relevant in Super, Gohan hasn't yet regained his former power to its fullest extent, and Super Saiyan Goku is most likely on par with the current Super Saiyan Gohan. That's what I think Toei is leading most viewers to believe just from watching the show and even reading some of the advertising material.

So to answer apex_pretador's question, I'd be inclined to say either interpretation is fine. Either Goku can access two different base states (one of which COULD be a suppressed state, with the yellow Super Saiyan forms being offshoots of that suppressed state) or he can only access one base state that is considerably weaker than Super Saiyan God; regardless of whichever scenario is the real one, it's clear to me that Goku at least uses a base state that wouldn't rightfully be considered "God level".

[CrimsonYouth]

I think most of team Universe 7 could beat Basil. Buu was messing around and never got hurt so I think only Tien, Krillin and Roshi would have a problem going based on what we know so far.

Honestly, I don't think so. Basil in base seems to be as strong as Dabura or Perfect Cell and in his buffed form as strong as a SSJ2, probably near SSJ2 Majin vegeta level.

The only ones I can see defeating him currently without problem are Goku, Vegeta and obviously Buu.

For example, in the U7 vs U6 arc, Piccolo did not surpass Frost by much,and Frost had a level very similar to the one of Frieza in namek, maybe a bit stronger. He couldn't do much against Basil in a 1 vs 1 match with his current level. Not to mention Tien, 17, 18 and Krillin, that are leagues below.

Gohan needs to train. I feel that if he had fought with Basil, there was a good chance he would have lose. I can't see him surpasing the barrier of SSJ2 at the moment and Lavenda seems to be much more stronger than Basil (according with Rou words, who mentioned that Basil is the younger of the three). In fact, Gohan seems to be having a lot of trouble in the preview of Ep 80.

[Bullza]

I wouldn't be surprised if the saiyans are buu arc level, gohan too because of his training, and Piccolo just got nerfed to below namek Frieza.

Piccolo's power is the most confusing after Goku's.

First when Resurrection F came out he was having trouble with Shisami who was said to be as strong as Zarbon.

Then it turned out he was weaker than Base Gohan....that's always been weird because they said Base Goku was weaker than Frieza and Piccolo was many times stronger than Frieza. Of course nobody has really had a great explanation for why Base Gohan is so strong. Most of us just assumed its because even though his overall power has decreased since it was unlocked it hasn't completey gone, he's still got enough left to be above Piccolo.

Obviously this is nothing more than a theory though. One which to me would be in tatters if it turns out Super Saiyan Gohan was weaker than Buu because then he'd just be at the same level he was at during the Great Saiyaman saga which would mean Piccolo was massively nerfed.

Recently because of one of the manga chapters in Super, I've wondered if perhaps Gohan like Trunks appear to be so much stronger than they should be because of mastering the Z sword.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The SSBlue baseball Vegeta threw at Goku could probably kill Golden Frieza.

I wouldn't be surprised if the saiyans are buu arc level, gohan too because of his training, and Piccolo just got nerfed to below namek Frieza.

Piccolo's power is the most confusing after Goku's.

First when Resurrection F came out he was having trouble with Shisami who was said to be as strong as Zarbon.

Then it turned out he was weaker than Base Gohan....that's always been weird because they said Base Goku was weaker than Frieza and Piccolo was many times stronger than Frieza. Of course nobody has really had a great explanation for why Base Gohan is so strong. Most of us just assumed its because even though his overall power has decreased since it was unlocked it hasn't completey gone, he's still got enough left to be above Piccolo.

Obviously this is nothing more than a theory though. One which to me would be in tatters if it turns out Super Saiyan Gohan was weaker than Buu because then he'd just be at the same level he was at during the Great Saiyaman saga which would mean Piccolo was massively nerfed.

Recently because of one of the manga chapters in Super, I've wondered if perhaps Gohan like Trunks appear to be so much stronger than they should be because of mastering the Z sword.

But Rou Kaioshin said the Z sword doesn't actually give any power boost.

[The gr]

I think most of team Universe 7 could beat Basil. Buu was messing around and never got hurt so I think only Tien, Krillin and Roshi would have a problem going based on what we know so far.

Honestly, I don't think so. Basil in base seems to be as strong as Dabura or Perfect Cell and in his buffed form as strong as a SSJ2, probably near SSJ2 Majin vegeta level.

The only ones I can see defeating him currently without problem are Goku, Vegeta and obviously Buu.

For example, in the U7 vs U6 arc, Piccolo did not surpass Frost by much,and Frost had a level very similar to the one of Frieza in namek, maybe a bit stronger. He couldn't do much against Basil in a 1 vs 1 match with his current level. Not to mention Tien, 17, 18 and Krillin, that are leagues below.

Gohan needs to train. I feel that if he had fought with Basil, there was a good chance he would have lose. I can't see him surpasing the barrier of SSJ2 at the moment and Lavenda seems to be much more stronger than Basil (according with Rou words, who mentioned that Basil is the younger of the three). In fact, Gohan seems to be having a lot of trouble in the preview of Ep 80.

this video explain how strong is basil and what tier he stands

[Bullza]

But Rou Kaioshin said the Z sword doesn't actually give any power boost.

Well he said "You're wrong" but to what specifically I'm not sure.

But nevertheless taking a look at the scene they do speculate if the training with the sword was what made him stronger and Goku did say "I dunno if he's stronger than Buu" and at that point he was still the Fat Majin Buu so yeah would kill that theory I had.

So either Gohan does have some leftover Ultimate power and that's why he's stronger than Piccolo or the Ultimate power is completely separate, Gohan is comparable to how we at the start of the Buu saga in which case Piccolo was nerfed.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But Rou Kaioshin said the Z sword doesn't actually give any power boost.

Well he said "You're wrong" but to what specifically I'm not sure.

But nevertheless taking a look at the scene they do speculate if the training with the sword was what made him stronger and Goku did say "I dunno if he's stronger than Buu" and at that point he was still the Fat Majin Buu so yeah would kill that theory I had.

So either Gohan does have some leftover Ultimate power and that's why he's stronger than Piccolo or the Ultimate power is completely separate, Gohan is comparable to how we at the start of the Buu saga in which case Piccolo was nerfed.

But when he powers up don't they say he's become even stronger than before?

[Bullza]

But when he powers up don't they say he's become even stronger than before?

Who Piccolo? What scene are you referring to?

It doesn't actually make sense for Piccolo to be nerfed otherwise he wouldn't have been able to potentially defeat Frost or crack Vados' barrier. At the same time there's some who think Frost because he hasn't trained and is supposed to be the Universe 6 equivalent of Frieza that he's as strong as Namek saga Frieza to which if Piccolo was weaker then it'd fit with him being about as strong as Base Gohan who would be weaker than Frieza if his dad was.

[Hugo Boss]

This entire post rather eloquently sums up my opinion on the matter - in short, the "Trio De Dangers" are at the very least not dozens of times stronger than each other, Majin Buu's strength is still perfectly relevant in Super, Gohan hasn't yet regained his former power to its fullest extent, and Super Saiyan Goku is most likely on par with the current Super Saiyan Gohan. That's what I think Toei is leading most viewers to believe just from watching the show and even reading some of the advertising material.

Yeah, these are exactly my thoughts on the matter. I could say it's more or less like a mixture of what LowRyder2005, ChiefWamsutta, Beyond and Bullza have been commenting on these last two pages. I think Dragon Ball Super somehow screwed with Piccolo's powerlevel, because I don't see Gohan having his full power unlocked as a Super Saiyan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The next episode or two should give us a pretty good idea of where Goku and Gohan stand.

I wonder if they'll subvert our expectations and actually have U7 win the tournament.

[Bullza]

When I was looking up clips for Buu vs Beerus earlier I noticed that after Beerus defeats Gohan a surprised Piccolo says about Gohan being defeated so easily.

That wouldn't imply that Gohan was in his Mystic form there would it?

Otherwise why should Piccolo be so surprised after what he did to everyone else. Plus in the movie he was Mystic Gohan.

[ChiefWamsutta]

When I was looking up clips for Buu vs Beerus earlier I noticed that after Beerus defeats Gohan a surprised Piccolo says about Gohan being defeated so easily.

That wouldn't imply that Gohan was in his Mystic form there would it?

Otherwise why should Piccolo be so surprised after what he did to everyone else. Plus in the movie he was Mystic Gohan.

It makes sense that he was in Ultimate form. Gohan probably quit fighting after he found out about Videl being pregnant with Pan, which immediately followed his attacking Beerus. His lack of training after finding out probably led to RoF Gohan.