Toriyama retconning the entire lore of Kaioshins…

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Toriyama retconning the entire lore of Kaioshins…

Post by Speedster » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:41 am

I was a bit surprised that Universe 6 only had 2 Kaioshins attending the tournament given that U6 probably didn't have Buu killing them but then I remembered that Toriyama in an interview given in 2014 has retconned the existence of 4 regular Kaioshins (each per quadrant) plus their leader (Dai Kaiōshin). I thought he was just drunk when he gave that interview but apparently he was serious as what he said appears to be incorporated into the new material.

2014 interview: full interview here
Q. The Kaiōshin are said to have the highest status in the universe, but how can you become a Kaiōshin?
Toriyama: No one can. Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin. There are three of them, and they work in shifts. Though there are two of them on duty now, if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant. If there aren’t any accidents, then it’s said their lifespans are about 75,000 years.
The above goes directly against the original manga itself where there are direct references and panels to Kaioshins of the North, South and West and that the current Kaioshin was serving as the East Kaioshin at the time. Or that Buu absorbed the West Kaioshin and Dai Kaiōshin. It also contradicts their lifespans as the current Kaioshin we know existed for over 5 million years.

It also retcons the 2009 interview in the Super Exciting guide about the origin of the Kaioshins.

2009 interview: full interview here
Q. Is Kaiō-sama a hereditary position?
Toriyama: Inside the big ball I mentioned before, there is a planet, called the World Core [Kaishin-sei] where the Kaiō are born and raised. It’s a world like a gigantic Planet Kaiō, and Kaiō-sama and his peers are born as Core People [Shin-jin] from the fruit of the World Core’s giant World Tree [Kaiju]. The planet’s population is about 80. Core People are neither male nor female, and their average lifespan is said to be about 75,000 years. At a castle that’s like a school, they learn a variety of things, and live an easygoing life; however, if a Kaiō dies on one of the Kaiō Planets, the next Kaiō is chosen from among them by lottery. However, a Kaiōshin is chosen only from Core People who are born from a special golden fruit, which rarely occurs. In addition, there are occasionally delinquent Core People with evil hearts; these ones fall under the Makaiō.
In this interview the 75,000 years lifespan was for the regular Kaios. That of Kaioshins was meant to be 1000x longer (75 million years).

Also the 2014 interview says that the Kaioshins and Gods of Destructions are holding a meeting every 1000 years.
Q. Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?

Toriyama: The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.
So how in episode 3 of Dragonball Super, Kibitoshin not met Beerus but only Elder Kaioshin was really aware of him (Kibitoshin just heard of him)?

Seems to me that the timeline is somewhat compressed. Like the events of Buu killing the Kaioshins happened only 500 years ago (instead of 5 million years ago). Which makes sense for those events to be more recent as how could King Cold know about Buu (and warn Freeza about him too) if he was a being that existed 5 million years ago and never anyone heard from him again ever since. If Cold had such knowledge and Buu really appeared 5 million years ago it would be like a legend/rumour like the Super Saiyan one (which is supposedly once every 1000 years). Yet Beerus not knowing Buu? Oh well, Toriyama doesn't give a flying f*** about consistency and continuity.

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Re: Toriyama retconning the entire lore of Kaioshins…

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:38 pm

It's pretty much par of the course for Toriyama to create a few contradictions and inconsistencies in the series when he provides tidbits about character or events in later interviews. The origin of Majin Boo was completely re-written from what was stated in the manga and created a backstory for Mr Satan that conflicts his character in the Cell Games greatly.

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Re: Toriyama retconning the entire lore of Kaioshins…

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:46 pm

Maybe Toriyama is a mastermind and all of this seemingly inconsistent information is foreshadowing that someone is mucking about with history like in the video games...

Or not. :|
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Re: Toriyama retconning the entire lore of Kaioshins…

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:43 pm

It seems Toriyama is the exact opposite of One Piece's Eiichiro Oda in how they organized their franchises' lore. There was a recent interview with Oda and the interviewer was able to view Oda's early notes for One Piece. The interviewer noticed that some of the notes had been blocked out and asked Oda about it. Oda replied "I have not written about those, yet." He also seems to keep LITERAL tabs on his characters (not just minor, but also side characters) on where he had them last and what they were doing. In contrast, Toriyama forgot about Lunch and Android 18's hair color. All I can say is Toriyama can retcon faster than Marvel or DC, but we love him anyway.
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Re: Toriyama retconning the entire lore of Kaioshins…

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:59 am

ShadowBardock89 wrote:It seems Toriyama is the exact opposite of One Piece's Eiichiro Oda in how they organized their franchises' lore. There was a recent interview with Oda and the interviewer was able to view Oda's early notes for One Piece. The interviewer noticed that some of the notes had been blocked out and asked Oda about it. Oda replied "I have not written about those, yet." He also seems to keep LITERAL tabs on his characters (not just minor, but also side characters) on where he had them last and what they were doing. In contrast, Toriyama forgot about Lunch and Android 18's hair color. All I can say is Toriyama can retcon faster than Marvel or DC, but we love him anyway.
To be fair, Toriyama didn't actually forget about Lunch. He just somehow came to think that he had forgotten her, and then came up with an excuse for the absence he had perceived she had. When Toriyama made the statement that he had forgotten about Lunch, it was for a perceived absence the character had during the end run of "Dragon Ball", and he wrote in the excuse that she was off chasing after Tenshinhan at the very start of the Saiya-jin Saga to explain why she had been gone. However, the character had appeared up until the very end of the 23rd Budoukai, so the character's absence was only about two weeks in total between her last appearance and the in-universe explanation. To put it in perspective, the distance between the last time we see Yamcha in DB and the first time he's mentioned in Z is one page sooner than Lunch.

After that, there was no actual indicator that he forgot her at any point. He drew her on the cover page of one of the manga chapters during the Z Senshi's training for Vegeta and Nappa, and had intended for her to appear when Goku was collecting genki for the Genki Dama to defeat Buu.

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Re: Toriyama retconning the entire lore of Kaioshins…

Post by BoosterZabi » Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:58 pm

Universe 6's other Kaioshins were probably killed by their Buu's equivalent; Puu Bear.

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