ssj x10 multiplier?

[dragon boss z]

It was brought to my attention that Toriyama thought of ssj as more of a x10 multiplier than a x50 multiplier.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

The problem with this is that Goku's kaioken x20 would be stronger than his ssj form and Frieza should be much stronger than Goku even as a ssj.

Also the great ape form gives a x10 multiplier so that would mean ssj is only as strong as the great ape form.

Thoughts?

[Doctor.]

Toriyama clearly explains what he means. He says that the real boost is 50x but he always imagined it as 10x for the sake of convenience and probably not to bloat battle powers too much.

[dragon boss z]

Toriyama clearly explains what he means. He says that the real boost is 50x but he always imagined it as 10x for the sake of convenience and probably not to bloat battle powers too much.

He clearly said 50x is an exaggeration and he feels like it is x10. He didn't say the real boost is x50. I agree 50 makes way more sense though.

[LightBing]

The key part is "from what it was up to that point". At that point we had the 20x Kaioken, to make everything fit 30x is the most logical conclusion. Since 50x is too much and 20x is too little.

Toriyama clearly explains what he means. He says that the real boost is 50x but he always imagined it as 10x for the sake of convenience and probably not to bloat battle powers too much.

What? How did you came to that interpretation? He actually says the 50x idea is wrong, no matter how vague this quote can be interpreted.

[Hugo Boss]

30-fold multiplier would be fine if Freeza was already using his full power when 20-fold kaioken Goku matched him.

[Kaboom]

The way I feel Toriyama probably meant it, from an artist and writer point of view, is essentially "it's 50x, but it felt more like 10x when I drew it." In the sense that a large increase like 50-fold is hard to visualize.

[LightBing]

Later in the fight when Goku's actually Super Saiyan, both him and Freeza are considerably damaged. People never take that into account. We never have any indication Super Saiyan restored Goku or that Freeza going 100% restored him. We just see them damaged, Freeza even comments how the Genki Dama almost killed him.
People just don't seem to take the narrative into account.

The way I feel Toriyama probably meant it, from an artist and writer point of view, is essentially "it's 50x, but it felt more like 10x when I drew it." In the sense that a large increase like 50-fold is hard to visualize.

He says x50 is an exaggeration, that part is very clear. The way he says it, appears to separate what others thought and his thought process while drawing it. He says "it was considered that (...) would increase 50-fold" not that he considerate it that way.
He's just clarifying how much; it seems the whole point for him to extend the answer in that direction, since the question didn't even concern how strong Super Saiyan is/was.

I just don't see how you reached that conclusion, Kaboom.

[dragon boss z]

Later in the fight when Goku's actually Super Saiyan, both him and Freeza are considerably damaged. People never take that into account. We never have any indication Super Saiyan restored Goku or that Freeza going 100% restored him. We just see them damaged, Freeza even comments how the Genki Dama almost killed him.
People just don't seem to take the narrative into account.

IMO that is taking away from the story. Frieza said he was at 100%. Goku said he wanted Frieza to be at his best. It was supposed to be the fight between the two strongest beings in the universe at full power.

The way I can see ssj being a 10x multiplier is if kaioken x10/20 doesn't actaully make Goku 10/20 times stronger.

[Kaboom]

I just don't see how you reached that conclusion, Kaboom.

Well, I just figure that if Toriyama actually had some sort of problem or disagreement with the 50x boost, then I doubt they'd have reprinted it in those very same books. It doesn't seem like he's trying to say, "I had something different in mind," rather just, "it didn't feel quite that big, but whatever."

[LightBing]

Later in the fight when Goku's actually Super Saiyan, both him and Freeza are considerably damaged. People never take that into account. We never have any indication Super Saiyan restored Goku or that Freeza going 100% restored him. We just see them damaged, Freeza even comments how the Genki Dama almost killed him.
People just don't seem to take the narrative into account.

IMO that is taking away from the story. Frieza said he was at 100%. Goku said he wanted Frieza to be at his best. It was supposed to be the fight between the two strongest beings in the universe at full power.

The way I can see ssj being a 10x multiplier is if kaioken x10/20 doesn't actaully make Goku 10/20 times stronger.

I disagree, it would take away everything that happened to allow this epic clash. Even being contradictory since the characters went out of their way to comment their weakness, even with the clear visual cues. Yet didn't comment their supposed recovery, with the damaged visuals still present. We don't have to doubt Freeza, he was at 100% of what he could do at the time. Both him and Goku were injured putting them in equal footing in the story.

I just don't see how you reached that conclusion, Kaboom.

Well, I just figure that if Toriyama actually had some sort of problem or disagreement with the 50x boost, then I doubt they'd have reprinted it in those very same books. It doesn't seem like he's trying to say, "I had something different in mind," rather just, "it didn't feel quite that big, but whatever."

The book seems to be just an opportunity to make some bucks, it's basically a reprint with a few additions and this interview. I don't think they would bother changing it, nor would they really care. The guides live of making stuff up to expand the series with interesting visuals. Just my view.
The x50 idea is established to the fans, I mean we have this interview for some years now and people still preach the x50 as the gospel.
I read and re-read the interview and with all my English compression capability's, I can only discern Mr.Toriyama communicating "it was considered(by others) as x50, I think it's too much: this is how I envision it while drawing".

[Kaboom]

A whole lot of the Super Exciting Guide books' content was new, actually, especially the new page detailing the Super Saiyan forms and the power they grant.

Shueisha hasn't hesitated to abandon certain power level things before, like some of those Saiyan-arc powers that appeared in Jump back during the series' run and haven't been reprinted in anything since. The official boost for Super Saiyan isn't immune either, and I very, very much doubt they'd keep repeating it if Toriyama actually wanted it to be something different.

All I'm saying is that even if the 50x boost isn't what Toriyama may have pictured, he doesn't actually seem opposed to it. There's no reason to discount or replace it just because of his comment.

[dragon boss z]

I disagree, it would take away everything that happened to allow this epic clash. Even being contradictory since the characters went out of their way to comment their weakness, even with the clear visual cues. Yet didn't comment their supposed recovery, with the damaged visuals still present. We don't have to doubt Freeza, he was at 100% of what he could do at the time. Both him and Goku were injured putting them in equal footing in the story.

Goku could barely move, but after turning ssj he could freely move. His transformation seemed to help him recover. As for Frieza he knows exactly how much power he was using. He said he was at his maximum so it was. He never complained about being injured, he definitely would of since that's the type of person he is. Maybe his injuries are what caused him to loose power quickly, but it seems that was more of him just not training and getting used to his full power.

[LightBing]

A whole lot of the Super Exciting Guide books' content was new, actually, especially the new page detailing the Super Saiyan forms and the power they grant.

Shueisha hasn't hesitated to abandon certain power level things before, like some of those Saiyan-arc powers that appeared in Jump back during the series' run and haven't been reprinted in anything since. The official boost for Super Saiyan isn't immune either, and I very, very much doubt they'd keep repeating it if Toriyama actually wanted it to be something different.

All I'm saying is that even if the 50x boost isn't what Toriyama may have pictured, he doesn't actually seem opposed to it. There's no reason to discount or replace it just because of his comment.

I might have talked a bit out of my ass. Still, are they updating based on new information or are those changes arbitrary? Did any new guide repeated these boosts for Super Saiyan ever since? The interview might have been joined to the guide, without actually reading it to modify information.

I think you're right and that Mr.Toriyama doesn't really care if they go with x50 or x30 or x999. However we have actual clarification from him into his thought process. I find it incredibility dishonest to ignore it for the sake of convenience. For me there's every reason to discount it based on his comment, even if he isn't against it.
Super Saiyan is very important in the manga, this is just spreading misinformation that extends to everything related to it. It's isn't just a throw away curiosity.

I disagree, it would take away everything that happened to allow this epic clash. Even being contradictory since the characters went out of their way to comment their weakness, even with the clear visual cues. Yet didn't comment their supposed recovery, with the damaged visuals still present. We don't have to doubt Freeza, he was at 100% of what he could do at the time. Both him and Goku were injured putting them in equal footing in the story.

Goku could barely move, but after turning ssj he could freely move. His transformation seemed to help him recover. As for Frieza he knows exactly how much power he was using. He said he was at his maximum so it was. He never complained about being injured, he definitely would of since that's the type of person he is. Maybe his injuries are what caused him to loose power quickly, but it seems that was more of him just not training and getting used to his full power.

Did Goku recover or did he just receive a huge boost in power which gave him more fuel? I go with the later. Freeza did complain, out of the top of my head: he said the Kaioken x20 actually hurt, which infuriated him; he said the Genki Dama almost killed him, we can see him all bloody, without a part of his tail and with one eye shut.
Agree to disagree.

[Kaboom]

As far as I'm aware, the Super Exciting Guides are the most recent material to go in-depth about power levels and shiz. The 50x boost may have since been mentioned in the Full-Color volume's Q&A sections or something like that, though. I know they repeated other similar tidbits like the Saiyan-arc power levels.

I find it incredibility dishonest to ignore it for the sake of convenience. For me there's every reason to discount it based on his comment, even if he isn't against it. Super Saiyan is very important in the manga, this is just spreading misinformation that extends to everything related to it. It's isn't just a throw away curiosity.

Except that's really, really not what's going on... nobody's just willingly ignoring what Toriyama said because they don't like it, or something disdainful like that. Rather, there's just no need to put that much weight in it because neither did Toriyama. It's not like some of his other recent bits of exposition where he clearly said, "this is what's previously established, but I'm changing it."

His comment was little if anything more than, "it didn't feel that big to me when I drew it." There's no reason to treat it like him saying, "I hereby declare, by the power inherent within me as the original franchise author, that the 'Base x50' multiplier for Super Saiyan 1 offered within this very book series and others before it is a bold-faced falsehood, and the true multiplier for Super Saiyan is only Base x10." Inversely to ignoring Toriyama, this is essentially putting words in his mouth.

No professional editors worth their salt would print blatantly opposing information, one side being from the author no less, within the same book by mistake or oversight. There's no actual conflict. There's this book and all the others saying "Super Saiyan makes you 50x stronger" and Toriyama saying "whatevs."

[LightBing]

We're both just assuming Mr.Toriyama doesn't really care about which one sticks, fairly due to his demeanor. But nowhere in his interview does he imply anything of that sort. He says what he says, doesn't add "but whatever", " even so x50 is fine", "just a curiosity that doesn't matter now"; nothing.
The only thing that we can take for certain from his answer is that x50 is too much, therefore it is by all accounts wrong.

I understand the choice to maintain the x50 in the guide, he doesn't provide an exact answer, "x10 of it was last time "can be interpreted in many ways. They can't just change it and provide another guess, it would be unproductive. Even with that, the information is still wrong.

His statement is as good as a character saying anything in the show. This isn't like him telling us Boo wasn't created by Bibidi but has existed since forever. He's basically giving us a note, saying "you know this part, this is how I imagined it". He's not adding anything, he's not changing anything. He's clarifying, like adding an extra character to the manga given the common exposition lines.

We can't just pick what we like and ignore what we don't just because it's easy. If one defends the idea that the manga/author are to be held to the highest regard, then you can't claim x50 is right or else that person is an hypocrite. Before the x50 had no counters, this is disproves it categorically even if it doesn't provide a reliable substitute.

[Kaboom]

...therefore it is by all accounts wrong.
Even with that, the information is still wrong.
...this is disproves it categorically even if it doesn't provide a reliable substitute.

...No, it doesn't. You're still taking what he said too far, and trying to turn it into some sort of rule or strict "word of god" declaration. It's not underhanded or hypocritical to simply judge the intended weight of a comment, and there's no need to try imposing some sort of ultimatum onto people about it. If 50x is still good enough for Shueisha's folks, then it's good enough for us too.

[LightBing]

I'm taking it word by word. It's the same thing as accepting or not Beerus word saying Base Goku is weaker than Freeza. Except this comment doesn't have any duality provided by past events/words. In the manga nobody said anything about it, a guide said x50 and then we have this comment which starts "it was deemed x50 but I think that's an exaggeration". There's very little room for interpretation here, it's very straightforward.
You're telling me he wasn't serious about it or didn't mean it. Ok, why? I don't see anything contradiction, why should we assume that? I don't see why we shouldn't take his word at face value.

The man isn't infallible, if there's something I'm missing I have no problem with questioning his word. I see no reason for it here.

This isn't the absolute truth. I will point people their hypocrisy, if they tip toe through whatever statements they prefer and say he's means it there but not here. That's what I meant.

To each it's own, no problem in following Shueisha line and the opposite. If people are consistent in their opinions, of course.

[xmysticgohanx]

The way I feel Toriyama probably meant it, from an artist and writer point of view, is essentially "it's 50x, but it felt more like 10x when I drew it." In the sense that a large increase like 50-fold is hard to visualize.

The way I interpret it is: I draw it as a 10x boost but the Freeza fight did not let me.

I have the multiplier as 10x everywhere else in the series. As a side effect, It helps with Dr. Gero + Suppressed Piccolo + Gohan + Kulilin + Tenshinhan > SSJ Vegeta. So does the humans being around the millions. Tenshinhan even reacted to Gero's lasers with somewhat more difficulty than Goku did. That means he's on the base saiyan's tier for sure

And Kaboom to be fair, Toriyama > Shueisha. With that being said I have no problem with people going with 50x.

[Darkprince410]

I have the multiplier as 10x everywhere else in the series. As a side effect, It helps with Dr. Gero + Suppressed Piccolo + Gohan + Kulilin + Tenshinhan > SSJ Vegeta. So does the humans being around the millions. Tenshinhan even reacted to Gero's lasers with somewhat more difficulty than Goku did. That means he's on the base saiyan's tier for sure

And Kaboom to be fair, Toriyama > Shueisha. With that being said I have no problem with people going with 50x.

1) Given that Gero has already made a number of miscalculations about his and #19's strength in comparison to the Z Senshi's strongest, his belief that he could take on Vegeta with their strength doesn't necessarily mean much.

2) Kaboom's basically saying that Toriyama's statement was rather vague and that it wasn't said with any degree of "It has to be a 10x increase! I say so" tone to it, otherwise Shueisha wouldn't have kept using the 50x multiplier in all their guidebooks.

[xmysticgohanx]

I have the multiplier as 10x everywhere else in the series. As a side effect, It helps with Dr. Gero + Suppressed Piccolo + Gohan + Kulilin + Tenshinhan > SSJ Vegeta. So does the humans being around the millions. Tenshinhan even reacted to Gero's lasers with somewhat more difficulty than Goku did. That means he's on the base saiyan's tier for sure

And Kaboom to be fair, Toriyama > Shueisha. With that being said I have no problem with people going with 50x.

1) Given that Gero has already made a number of miscalculations about his and #19's strength in comparison to the Z Senshi's strongest, his belief that he could take on Vegeta with their strength doesn't necessarily mean much.

2) Kaboom's basically saying that Toriyama's statement was rather vague and that it wasn't said with any degree of "It has to be a 10x increase! I say so" tone to it, otherwise Shueisha wouldn't have kept using the 50x multiplier in all their guidebooks.

1. His only miscalculations were before he met their current selves. He believed #19 was still able to beat Goku because of #19's energy absorption. He was right even if Goku's sickness never detoriated Goku below his starting power level.

2. We'll have to agree to disagree on what Toriyama meant. That's a difference of interpretation.