What aspects do you think tarnished the Dragonball brand?

[precita]

As we all know the Dragonball franchise is far from perfect. Leaving things aside like personal preference, what do you think tarnished the franchise over the years?

- The pacing of Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek compared to the manga

- Some of the worst DBZ movies, like Lord Slug, Movie 11, etc.

- GT for having good ideas but poorly executed all of them.

- Super re-telling two movies with poor animation and poor pacing. 25 episodes of Super were wasted on movie re-tellings.

- Super's poor animation in general in certain episodes

What are yours?

[Kamiccolo9]

The loud, obnoxious side of the fanbase.

[Ozotto]

Even the things you could consider tarnishing, in my opinion, have become some what iconic among those in the anime fandom.

The pacing of Goku vs. Frieza, is notorious but still remembered fondly. It's almost so bad it's good, well in my opinion.

Even GT has gained appreciation as time has moved on, in my opinion. I think it has to do with Super and Heroes being the fan punching bags now.

I personally love the english dub of the DBZ including the ocean dub.
I enjoy all the movies and television specials.

The original Japanese version is good too, better dialog, but for some reason I love the dub too.

I feel like DBZ ended years ago, now we're just opening up a coffin to make money off merchandising.
I still enjoy the new stuff like Super, but I feel all the retcons tarnish the original story.

[sintzu]

Back in the day it would've been Z's filler and GT.

Currently it's Toriyama and Toei turning the franchise into a toy and card commercial which is hurting it more than Z's filler and GT ever could.

[VegettoEX]

How is a complete return to domestic and international financial success, with projections for yet another solid fiscal year ahead, proof of the latest material hurting the franchise?

You can try to spin it all you want with dismissive terminology, but the numbers don't lie.

[sintzu]

How is a complete return to domestic and international financial success, with projections for yet another solid fiscal year ahead, proof of the latest material hurting the franchise?

You can try to spin it all you want with dismissive terminology, but the numbers don't lie.

Financially it's doing really good but it's reputation among dragon ball fans and anime fans in general has been mixed to say the least.

[VegettoEX]

Reputation among... who, exactly? Us nerds talking on forums? Even we are contributing to the financial uptick with all these video, book, and game releases, so if you honestly think it's been tarnished so much, I sure hope the only thing you've purchased since 2008 has been the original tankobon volumes.

Again, no matter how you want to spin it, the numbers don't lie. It's been a constant uptick since Kai went off the air and Bandai started up Heroes. The last fiscal year specifically had been insane, and there's nothing you can say to change that.

[sintzu]

Reputation among... who, exactly? Us nerds talking on forums?

Even we are contributing to the financial uptick with all these video, book, and game releases, so if you honestly think it's been tarnished so much, I sure hope the only thing you've purchased since 2008 has been the original tankobon volumes.

Yeah.

This might help get across what I mean, Dawn of Justice had a huge opening weekend and is currently sitting at 875 million at the box office which is also huge so financially it's successful but it alongside WB's reputation is down the drain right now thanks to it.

Dragon Ball is currently in a similar place, it's making a lot of $$$ but it's reputation among fans isn't very good.

[Lord Beerus]

The Goku/Superman battle and debate that spiralled out of control from 2012 to 2015.

We saw the absolute worst of the Dragon Ball fandom during that period, that I don't think we'll ever live it down.

[Ozotto]

It's hard to say what actually tarnishes it, in a general over all view nothing has really tarnished it.

In individual perspectives and opinions it probably feels tarnished. But that'll vary person to person.

My head canon keeps this from effecting my opinions about it being tarnished though, lol.

[Cure Dragon 255]

The Goku/Superman battle and debate that spiralled out of control from 2012 to 2015.

We saw the absolute worst of the Dragon Ball fandom during that period, that I don't think we'll ever live it down.

THIS. SO FUCKING HARD. I really hate deluded fans who think this shitty dick measuring contest actually matters and actually influences stuff like Super and the new movies.

[MozillaVulpix]

I'd say the dub, but that was responsible for giving the series popularity in the West to begin with.

So...maybe the first Broly movie? It's one of those things you always have to remind yourself ACTUALLY EXISTED. It feels like a self-parody of everything Western fans think DBZ is, but it's real.

[Kunzait_83]

How is a complete return to domestic and international financial success, with projections for yet another solid fiscal year ahead, proof of the latest material hurting the franchise?

You can try to spin it all you want with dismissive terminology, but the numbers don't lie.

You can't seriously make a case that creative/artistic quality (which I think is what's being ultimately discussed here: though then again, the word "brand" was flogged out, so I could be wrong on that) is entirely dependent on financial returns and units of merchandise sold. Creative merit is not even remotely something you can just attach a hard number to point to and say "See?" That's almost the same kind of overly-literalized, rigid thinking that leads to stuff like Power Level debates being a thing.

If quality = money made and money made = quality, then things like Michael Bay's oeuvre or Justin Bieber's discography would be hailed as some of the most important, visionary works to ever happen to the mediums of film and music respectively, while the works of people like Alejandro Jodorowsky or Ian MacKaye would be dismissed as utterly worthless and without the slightest hint of merit or impact on anything or anyone.

If the last dozen to 30 some-odd years of pop culture has taught us anything at all, its that something can be utterly reviled, hated, and ultimately completely forgotten and dismissed by the public and culture at large and yet STILL rake in a heap ton of cash in its immediate present regardless. The patron saint example of this being without question James Cameron's Avatar, a movie that for a few months in late 2009 and early 2010 ruled the entire fucking world, had critics and various internet talking heads (and marketing execs) hailing it as an immediate classic and cinematic milestone, and remains to date the single highest grossing film of all time: and yet just a few short years after its release, you'd be hard pressed to find very many people (outside of ultra hardcore special effects nerds) who can be bothered to care one whit about it or who'd be able to recite or remember so much as a single line of dialogue from it or call to mind any detail more specific than "Pocahontas/Dances With Wolves with blue people" (if that even: it might boil down to just "there were blue people in it") if you held their entire family at knifepoint in front of them. Its the quintessential "all time blockbuster that no one really likes or gives a damn about".

Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland is within the top 20 highest grossing movies of all time, and yet somehow I don't quite foresee that ending up being an especially well remembered or beloved cinematic icon in the years to come. Peter Jackson's Hobbit movies are within the top 30 highest grossing films of all time, and those tend to be roundly hated by and large. Hell, I can't even begin to count the number of Billboard Hot 100 pop songs from even relatively recent years that almost NO ONE would recognize if you put a gun to their heads. Someone name any given David Guetta song right now from raw, instinctive memory. Hell, try and HUM one.

Money made can SOMETIMES occasionally be an indicator of quality MAYBE, but that's by NO means anywhere even CLOSE to a hardline, universally trustworthy barometer to point towards to end an argument.

There simply is no hard and fast "formula" in existence for working out what has creative or cultural merit and what doesn't. No universal signs that dictate what will or won't "click" with the public on a long term basis. That's an INFINITELY more complex issue of pure alchemy that requires a colossal degree of more nuance and thought than simply just pouring over a spreadsheet of profit margins and comparing figures. Art isn't a numbers game: much as just about anyone involved in marketing wishes it were otherwise.

In the case of something like Dragon Ball (and this same concept can apply for just about nearly anything else really), a new series or entry or whatever can just as well make a ton of money in merchandise sales while at the same time leaving a horrible taste in the mouths of fans that, in the long run, might have a negative influence in the future going forward.

And I'm not even saying that that's what's happening here with Super in the first place (I just said in another thread a minute ago that I think its WAY too early to call in what Super's ultimate legacy for DB as an entity will ultimately be): but if you want to make the case that Super's reception isn't so bad to the point that it WON'T lead to more fans being soured on the series further and further on down the road, pointing at immediate sales figures is among the least convincing arguments you can make.

[Esfír Dedragón]

-DBGT's poor execution of its stories. Had it just been about the Shadow Dragons, I think it would have a better reception.

-The shoe-horning of some characters's long-lost relatives with barely an explanation. (Tights, Tarble, Gine, etc.)

-Toriyama's/Toei's lack of interest in an "official canon." A lot of rabid fanboys would STFU if this happened.

-Frieza's Resurrection. The concept oozes of poorly-written fan-fiction.

-The entire franchise going into "Higher Gods & Multiverse" territory. This is more of a subjective thought of mine, but I don't like the appearance of "Super Saiyan God", how its acquired, and its proceeding transformation. 12 Universes? SO uninspiring.

[Vijay]

Poor animation, some portions of Boo Arc, GT, Kai, Kai 2.0 & Super

You can notice how TOEI's at fault with all those aspects I've mentioned

Hired talent-less animators (Ebisawa, Uchiyama etc), added useless fillers in Boo Arc & dragged an otgerwise perfectly paced Arc, screwed with GT's execution, music scandal with Kai, piss poor plot & animation in Super.

To think certain section of fans STILL dreaming TOEI would do good to DragonBall franchise is beyond me

[Araki]

You can't seriously make a case that creative/artistic quality (which I think is what's being ultimately discussed here: though then again, the word "brand" was flogged out, so I could be wrong on that) is entirely dependent on financial returns and units of merchandise sold. Creative merit is not even remotely something you can just attach a hard number to point to and say "See?" That's almost the same kind of overly-literalized, rigid thinking that leads to stuff like Power Level debates being a thing.

The problem is that creative merit is subjective; factual success is not.

Objectively speaking, there's no way things that are making a ton of money and resurrecting a brand are "tarnishing" it, no matter people's personal views about the products.

[TekTheNinja]

Pretty much all of Super.

Some of the worst DBZ movies, like Lord Slug

Lord Slug is considered one of the worst? That's one of my favorites.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

FUNI's Dragon Ball without a doubt it split the fanbase and has left a lasting impression on its fans and here we are in 2016 still explaining to those fans that Gokuu is not a selfless hero ,Freeza didn't make Vegeta a bad guy and i can go on and on.

Majority of the misinformed fans are the ones who have only watched FUNI's misrepresentated 'Americanised' version of DB which is an insult to Toriyama's work.

The recent content has too hurt the franchise and it does make DB a Fast&Furious kind of franchise whose main aim is to make money with no organic storytelling but still none can top what FUNI did.

- Travis

[VegettoEX]

You can't seriously make a case that creative/artistic quality (which I think is what's being ultimately discussed here: though then again, the word "brand" was flogged out, so I could be wrong on that) is entirely dependent on financial returns and units of merchandise sold. Creative merit is not even remotely something you can just attach a hard number to point to and say "See?" That's almost the same kind of overly-literalized, rigid thinking that leads to stuff like Power Level debates being a thing.

< snip >

You bring up plenty of good points, but I don't think it's an analogous situation here.

For starters, and I'll concede on this, we need to wait a little longer than 45 episodes before we determine whether or not Super has any lasting impact or contributes to this theoretical "tarnishing" of the brand. I'm pretty sure there was a thread about this recently, and we actually did a podcast topic about it a while back. And think about that for a second: we did that topic two months ago. So subtract another two months of actual new material, and back then that's what we were looking at in terms of available material to analyze. Not sure I'm getting across what I'm trying to get across here, but eh.

Anyway, yeah. I do want to focus on the merchandise sales, because as much as it's ridiculous to tie profit with artistic integrity (yes, you're absolutely right there), there's still worthwhile correlation/causation to pull from in all of that. We saw merchandise sales steadily decrease to dangerous levels in 2008, and then with Kai on the air, it actually got worse over the next 1-2 years. That says that, for the generation at that snapshot in time, the penetration and over-saturation was there and was overdone.

But suddenly, everyone starts making NEW material (in terms of both gaming from Bandai Namco in terms of Heroes, and then from Toei in the form of the movies), and... exponential increases again. And then this past year? That's nuts.

There's something to that. I don't think you can ignore that and handwave it with the Michael Bay or Justin Bieber comparisons............. not YET, anyway.

We need to give it some time for reflection and actual analysis both from a financial perspective and an artistic critique perspective.

So I guess I'm being slightly hypocritical about it (by saying "no, look at the situation RIGHT NOW!" but also saying, "no, you have to give it some time!"), but SOMETHING is "working" for them right now, and it's also "working" for the fans: the companies are making money, and the fans are (seemingly!) buying things they want.

Now, if next year we see a DRASTIC drop, especially compared to the projections they're making (which are effectively the same as what they made this year), THEN we'll start seeing this (again, theoretical) disconnect between "what the fans want" and what's being pumped out as this new material, and THEN can you start trotting out the word "tarnish" as it relates to Super and the brand.

I guess I'm just one to want to tie things to actual metrics rather than a vague "people on the Internet say _________".

[TheGreatness25]

I think that certain fans' interpretation of the show tarnished the DB brand for me; mainly the never ending made up gaga about battle powers, "feats," "busters," etc. A lot of fans are trying to make DB into a scientific thing, trying to pretend that they're Bardock the great scientist and trying to put "logic" into an un-logical world. "But in this line, Goku said that he broke a sweat. But when he fought that other guy, he didn't break a sweat, he only bled, but that didn't mean he was tired. So that means that this guy is stronger than that guy because he tired out Goku!" Instead of sitting back and enjoying, everything became so analyzed when really, I think that the plan for going into every fight scene/panel was "make it exciting with drama, so clearly it has to be a close fight." I'm sure Akira Toriyama didn't sit there with a list of battle powers that he created thinking about who can break a sweat against who.

For me, the tarnishing of the series was when I actually realized what the story was. As a kid, I didn't really understand Goku, but now that I know more, it really is kind of a sour note that he is so careless about his family and kind of a selfish douche. I like his heroic portrayal in the dub, for example. Before anyone starts giving me a long explanation about how he's a Saiyan and blah blah blah, I understand that. But those were all conscious decisions made by the author. Knowing that there are 42 volumes of manga and 444 episodes dedicated to a main character who is a hero... as a byproduct of his own selfishness is kind of a downer. I guess I'm not as cynical and actually enjoy the concept of a real hero as opposed to some fight-addicted tool who turns his back on his family at the first sign of a fight or training. Again, I understand he's a Saiyan and he doesn't understand what Chichi is to him and blah, blah, blah, but as I said, this isn't the real world, and the original author made those decisions consciously and could have just as easily made Goku different than the other Saiyans (he already is) in that regard.

For me, the new movies and Super did tarnish Dragon Ball because it goes back and wipes out a chunk of the story that I have accepted and supported (I spent a lot of money on GT). The new series is financially successful, but it really never made a dime off of me because I'm simply not interested. I'm not a huge anime fan, but DB was always the exception to me; it had a different feel from the rest. Now, it's just another anime to me. I can't explain it, but it stopped being this great piece of my childhood and became just another cartoon/comic book now.



Anyway, that's what tarnished the series for me and I'm pretty sure that everyone's response on here about how Super ruined DB is based on their personal opinions. Super tarnished the brand for them and some people just don't care how successful it is or how much money it rakes in. If this thread asks what tarnished the Dragon Ball brand for them personally, every answer here is valid. However, if the question asks what tarnished the Dragon Ball brand objectively, then I don't think anything did because clearly the numbers and sales don't lie. If this is an objective and not a subjective question, then there really is nothing to talk about.

I am very happy for Dragon Ball that it is doing great numbers and sales and that it is bringing in a new, fresh, and old fan base. But for me, personally, Dragon Ball is dead because no matter what it comes out with or what it does, it will never give me that feeling again. For me, it simply jumped the shark and I no longer care about it. I can watch an old episode or read an old manga and get nostalgic for a moment, but every clip that I see or whatever I read about Super makes me cringe. And no, I haven't seen more than the first episode of Super, but that with Battle of Gods and Resurrection "F" really took my interest away. Again, Super tarnishes the series for me and clearly not for the majority of others.