How is Trunks' moments anymore of an ass pull then Gohan/Goku?

[Avok]

SS2 Gohan is the most teased thing in all of Dragon Ball. The build-up was insane.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I don't really have an issue with any of Future Trunks' asspulls...individually. The problem is that once we reach the arc's halfway point or so, he basically starts pulling them out of nowhere every episode. There are so many within such a small time frame. It's just too much. The original series rarely suffers from this. Toriyama usually utilizes different characters with a decent amount of natural content padding between those sorts of beats.

[NintendoBlaze53]

Power scaling is total bullshit and something only invented for fans to argue who can beat who. I hate it. For me a fighter should be better on technique not raw power (why Tenshinhan and Roshi are in the Universal Tournament arc). I like SSj1 and SSj2. Both are introduced as a concept early in their arcs and have adaquete buildup, especially SSj2. But as for the whole rage dynamic people are saying. I think every transformation was undermined from it's original use.
-SSj1, triggered by rage and pure heart. This type of transformation was used with Goku, Trunks, Cabba, Vegeta and Gohan. But Goten and Trunks just....have it. Kid Trunks having it makes so little sense, considering his Future self had to suffer the death of Gohan.
-SSj2, triggered by rage. Death of 16 and a will to stop seeing everyone get hurt broke Gohan. No freaking clue how Goku learned it. But I was always under the impression Majin was what gave Vegeta SSj2, similar to Goku taping into God ki later. Vegeta became Majin to get power to beat Goku and then when fighting Kid Buu he now had SSj2, a form that is equal to SSj2 Goku. So if he had that pre-Majin, why did he need to go Majin just to equal Goku? Also in Manga Trunks goes SSj2 from having Kaioshin get killed, we don't know how long he spent with Kaioshin, they might have became good friends.
-SSj3. It's stupid. As people said it has literally no buildup. Gotenks you COULD LOOSELY argue it was anger from Goten seeing Chi-Chi get killed. But that's very loose.
-SSGSS. Vegeta just learns this. It's still not explained. I've seen way more hatred for Trunks getting Ikari then this.

None of these are even comparable because we're given context for all those previous power-ups. Against Raditz, he got assistance (don't even know why anything here would be considered an asspull). Against Nappa, he trained with King Kai. Against Frieza, he received zenkai, a concept constantly mentioned throughout the entire arc, despite how convenient it is. The SSJ transformation was also foreshadowed prior to him becoming one. To attain SSJ3, he trained 7 entire years in the other world.

Gohan's hidden power is just his thing, and Old Kai managed to bring it all out. Again, convenient, but not necessarily an asspull. There are many ways to work around this in the series and even make it a pivotal plot point.

Can you consider them asspulls because of the actual power scaling? Sure. But that's not primarily why Trunks' transformation rubs people the wrong way; this transformation came out of thin air with no explanation, and never received a single one either. It raises sooo many unanswered questions too. It's the sort of thing that gives ammo to haters of the franchise who say this is a series about men that inexplicably become stronger by screaming really loud.

Are we considering an asspull in universe or in the story? Cause both SSj3 ARE asspulls. Even if you explain the asspull later, a plot point that happens with no prior buildup or knowledge is one. I was referring to those moments as Gohan, not Goku. Gohan goes from getting his neck broken by Reecome to dealing a decent beating on 3rd form Freeza from rage boost alone. And Elder Kai doing it IS another asspull. It happened before. "Oh no. That wasn't ALL your hidden power, there's still more". In story it's still an asspull, Elder Kai suddenly reveals he has a way to combat Majin Buu that we've never known about up to this point. He does the same thing LATER with Potara. Elder Kai is a walking asspull. SSj3 came out of thin air with no explanation, 20 years later all we've got is "Goku trained a lot in other world". Gotenks was never explained and yet after just less then a week after Ikari was revealed it was called an asspull, yet NO ONE did that when SSj3 was revealed over 20 years ago?

All of Trunks prior forms seemed triggered by rage. His SSj form is one of only two to be triggered by the loss of a loved one. I always took SSj Ikari as Trunks going SSj Grade 3, but then using some kind of God Ki to restrain the excess Ki and retain his speed. Vegeta achieved God Ki through training alone, which is stupid but anyway, his son simply did the same. But with rage and despair. Lets face it SSj Ikari for Trunks makes more sense in universe and is less of an asspull then SSj3 and Vegeta having SSjBlue despite having no explanation given for getting god ki.
Super's writing, asspulls and retcons seem no worse and yet no better then the Majin Buu arc. The writing level is the same. In that regard it's a sequel carrying on from where Z left off. (Stupid Goku aside.)

I don't really have an issue with any of Future Trunks' asspulls...individually. The problem is that once we reach the arc's halfway point or so, he basically starts pulling them out of nowhere every episode. There are so many within such a small time frame. It's just too much. The original series rarely suffers from this. Toriyama usually utilizes different characters with a decent amount of natural content padding between those sorts of beats.

This I can agree with. At least in the Buu arc the asspulls jumped from character to character as opposed to one getting all of them. That's all on Super's writing and pacing.

[dbs fanboy]

I'm ok with Gohan getting SSJRage but Goten and Trunks? God no, I dont see them experienced enough to control such power, plus they're too childish to have that power, then again they did get SSJ but still, but I'm ok with them getting it if they grow up in design and mentality.

Well not as kids but when they grow up.

[Esfír Dedragón]

Because there is exponentially huge gap of strength between a Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks and the rest of the characters (Goku, Vegeta, Goku Black, and Future Zamasu).

Not only that, but we get NO explanation as to the abilities of Trunks's....LOL... "spirit sword" and NO explanation of the half-baked concept of "Super Saiyan Rage"

At least the the mini-grades between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 were properly explained as minor increases of strength before the next stage of Super Saiyan Transformations.

[Yedis]

Because there is exponentially huge gap of strength between a Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks and the rest of the characters (Goku, Vegeta, Goku Black, and Future Zamasu).

The gap was shrunken when the trio went back to the Future in Episode 56.

[s-shield]

Even taking nostalgia out of it, people generally have more acceptance for what came before because they consumed it as part of a whole. It's the same reason SSJ4 didn't trip any alarms when I first saw it in a magazine in the 90's. Because only half a second earlier, I learned about SSJ2 and 3 as well. It was all "a matter of fact." I didn't question any of it, because I had no context for it.

I imagine very few of us have consumed DB-Z-GT-Super in the order it was released. We watched the series all over the map, with the internet and fan magazines and video games cluing us in to what came before and after. Right now, we are all (in America, at least) in the previously unheard of situation of experiencing the series as it goes, with no clue what comes next, if there are any explanations forthcoming about what just happened, and way too much time in between episodes to dwell on it.

And say what you will about Toriyama's hand-written asspulls in the series, at least he generally knew how to cover his tracks. Pretty much any time someone does something impossible, another character or two's jaw drops and they go "That's impossible!" making you feel better about noticing it. Not to mention the fact that many of those asspulls actually fail. SSJ3 and Mystic Gohan didn't do jack to stop Buu, making them less egregious. Trunks' Spirit Sword gets so much hate because he did an asspull "For The Win." It's like if during the fight with Kid Buu, Goku dug deep and discovered (a) SSJ4 out of nowhere and then "one-shot"-ed Kid Buu to win the final battle. But actually, Trunks' would still be worse, because new forms of SSJ are an accepted convention of the series. Spirit Swords aren't.

Same with his mysterious power-ups. Even though it didn't win him the fight, it kind of flies in the face of the established formula of you either train, or transform. Call power-scaling bullshit if you want, but without it, Oolong might as well have fought Black to a standstill, lol. I think part of the problem there is an unwillingness to "theorize" to explain that stuff. Had this arc come out in the 90's, by now, everyone would have a theory about Trunks at the beginning of the arc being on like 1 HP, explaining why he couldn't hold his own against Black, but later, after a senzu and a nap, he could. He was back to full strength. Same with his new power-up, maybe it's a result of training with the Z-Sword. Or something....

So while I still kind of believe that if the material from Super had come out in the mid-90's, as part of the original DBZ, people would have LESS of a problem with Trunk's random power-ups and spirit swords (mainly because we would have had 20 years to digest/come up with explanations for them AND because we would have learned about them out of context), the fact that the "asspulls" here don't even (A) get a "WTF" from the other characters, or (B) get a Toriyama-esque lampshade, and (C) are used to resolve the physical battle, is what I think rankles a lot of fans. Plus, it feeds into the whole "Super Sucks" narrative so nicely, lol.

[nato25]

Can I ask where did all this SSJ3 is an ass pull start from? SSJ3 answers the question of "what did Goku develop in his 7 years of training in the after life?" The fact did he would discover a new form of Super Saiyan is perfectly acceptable in my eyes. Even more so if you choose to look at SSJ2 and SSJ3 as an extension of Super Saiyan instead of new levels.

Trunks moments are copping deserved criticism because they are the worst case of ass pulls in the whole series. They are really close together and all for the same character. No names, no comments, no explanations for anything he does. He also perhaps gets the biggest jump in power in the entire series, from SSJ2 level to being able to go toe to toe with SSJ Rose Black. That jump in power comes in a very short amount of time also.

Another reason is the design. This isn't a simple extension of Super Saiyan like all the forms that have come before it. There's some weird blue ki mixed in there which could easily be/not be god ki and we will most likely never find out.

[Lord Beerus]

Can I ask where did all this SSJ3 is an ass pull start from? SSJ3 answers the question of "what did Goku develop in his 7 years of training in the after life?" The fact did he would discover a new form of Super Saiyan is perfectly acceptable in my eyes. Even more so if you choose to look at SSJ2 and SSJ3 as an extension of Super Saiyan instead of new levels.

SSJ3 is an asspull because Goku states he has no idea how the hell he is going to confront Majin Boo. Then he becomes a SSJ3 and then after his battle with Majin Boo, he openly declare he could have beaten him. Goku is either a huge asshole for not using this form when he faced off against Vegeta preventing a lot of shit from happening or he's a colossal idiot for forgetting he could transform into a SSJ3 in the first place.

EDIT: There was also never an explanation beyond the vague handwave of "training in Heaven", as to how the form was attained
EDIT 2: Even worse, Gotenks can transform into SSJ3 despite not actually being told or shown by Goku how to do it. But that instance is more tolerable with that fact that Gotenks is a fused character, Goten and Trunks trained in the ROSAT and Saiyan hybrids are just naturally strong.

[Gog]

Can I ask where did all this SSJ3 is an ass pull start from? SSJ3 answers the question of "what did Goku develop in his 7 years of training in the after life?" The fact did he would discover a new form of Super Saiyan is perfectly acceptable in my eyes. Even more so if you choose to look at SSJ2 and SSJ3 as an extension of Super Saiyan instead of new levels.

Trunks moments are copping deserved criticism because they are the worst case of ass pulls in the whole series. They are really close together and all for the same character. No names, no comments, no explanations for anything he does. He also perhaps gets the biggest jump in power in the entire series, from SSJ2 level to being able to go toe to toe with SSJ Rose Black. That jump in power comes in a very short amount of time also.

Another reason is the design. This isn't a simple extension of Super Saiyan like all the forms that have come before it. There's some weird blue ki mixed in there which could easily be/not be god ki and we will most likely never find out.

SS3 is an ass pull, it came out of nowhere, their was literally no foreshadowing to it, and apparently as I've read in this thread, it completely contradicts what Goku stated prior, with him being unsure of how he could stop majin buu. Its an ass pull, how can you justify its existence?

Yeah Trunks asspulls are unfortunately the worst, however I like the explanation, that Trunks learnt how to harness and use the plot to his advantage. But at the very least you can say that the form is a mixture of SSB, and SS2 or something, something, something wait a minute

[spoiler][/spoiler]

All these ass pulls are making me real thirsty

[PsionicWarrior]

Yeah Trunks asspulls are unfortunately the worst, however I like the explanation, that Trunks learnt how to harness and use the plot to his advantage. But at the very least you can say that the form is a mixture of SSB, and SS2 or something, something, something wait a minute

There is no comparison between both asspulls possible because of God-ki lol

[Gog]

Yeah Trunks asspulls are unfortunately the worst, however I like the explanation, that Trunks learnt how to harness and use the plot to his advantage. But at the very least you can say that the form is a mixture of SSB, and SS2 or something, something, something wait a minute

There is no comparison between both asspulls possible because of God-ki lol

What do you mean , Trunks never once used 'God-Ki' he was using Plot Ki the entire time

[PsionicWarrior]

There is just no way Trunks could attain such huge boost in so short time lol
There is NO indication whatsoever, no seven years in the netherworld nor Fusion nor nothing lol

[DBZAOTA482]

The only thing you have a point on is Gotenks somehow knowing SSJ3. Every other "asspull" you mentioned in Z is either explained or a well-established plot point.

The shit that happens in Super are clearly just there to move the plot forward.

[PsionicWarrior]

The shit that happens in Super are clearly just there to move the plot forward.

Exactly lol
it was great for the narrative but a few hints at least wouldn't have been unwelcomed lol

[Lord Beerus]

The only thing you have a point on is Gotenks somehow knowing SSJ3. Every other "asspull" you mentioned in Z is either explained or a well-established plot point.

The shit that happens in Super are clearly just there to move the plot forward.

SSJ3 was never explained in-universe.

[nato25]

The only thing you have a point on is Gotenks somehow knowing SSJ3. Every other "asspull" you mentioned in Z is either explained or a well-established plot point.

The shit that happens in Super are clearly just there to move the plot forward.

SSJ3 was never explained in-universe.

After years of video games and other media this might be wrong, but doesn't he say how he is still not used to this form, that tells me he only developed it somewhat recently. The gang also comment on its power and ask if Goku has found a way to pass an ascended Saiyan. I don't see how all that time training and developing a new form in 7 years in the afterlife equates to an ass pull. Thats your reason right there, if you train intensely for seven years with a bunch of really strong people you can acquire a new level of power.

[nato25]

Can I ask where did all this SSJ3 is an ass pull start from? SSJ3 answers the question of "what did Goku develop in his 7 years of training in the after life?" The fact did he would discover a new form of Super Saiyan is perfectly acceptable in my eyes. Even more so if you choose to look at SSJ2 and SSJ3 as an extension of Super Saiyan instead of new levels.

SSJ3 is an asspull because Goku states he has no idea how the hell he is going to confront Majin Boo. Then he becomes a SSJ3 and then after his battle with Majin Boo, he openly declare he could have beaten him. Goku is either a huge asshole for not using this form when he faced off against Vegeta preventing a lot of shit from happening or he's a colossal idiot for forgetting he could transform into a SSJ3 in the first place.

EDIT: There was also never an explanation beyond the vague handwave of "training in Heaven", as to how the form was attained
EDIT 2: Even worse, Gotenks can transform into SSJ3 despite not actually being told or shown by Goku how to do it. But that instance is more tolerable with that fact that Gotenks is a fused character, Goten and Trunks trained in the ROSAT and Saiyan hybrids are just naturally strong.

Goku was an asshole with the SSJ3 thing, Vegeta outright calls him out on it later for hiding it from him and he tries to justify it by saying I can only do it for a short time. He obviously doesn't like using the form due to its shortcomings. Knowing Goku's selfish motivations he probably wanted to fight Majin Buu and didn't transform so he could have an even fight against Vegeta.

I can get on board with the Gotenks thing, it is strange he has the form immediately. I guess he trains for a decent amount of time in the time chamber as he does develop it and can't turn SSJ3 immediately. He also sees Goku do it but that shouldn't help much I guess. I always chalk that up to fusion. You're just that much more powerful in a fused state you can harness greater power transformations easily.

[NintendoBlaze53]

The only thing you have a point on is Gotenks somehow knowing SSJ3. Every other "asspull" you mentioned in Z is either explained or a well-established plot point.

The shit that happens in Super are clearly just there to move the plot forward.

So Fusion, Potara weren't just there to move the plot forward? We're talking from a story perspective. Goku saying later "Oh I COULD have used it", is a retcon. Much like Freeza even existing is a retcon. The series watched in order shows what is an asspull. As someone who has watched from DB EP to Z EP291 a few times. I felt so dejected and the Buu arcs level of desperation in plot points.

There is just no way Trunks could attain such huge boost in so short time lol
There is NO indication whatsoever, no seven years in the netherworld nor Fusion nor nothing lol

Right. Remind me how Goku beat Freeza? Oh right a rage boost from going SSj. Oh and Gohan beat Cell? Oh right it was a rage boost from SSj2. So how did Trunks get strong enough to combat Zamasu? Oh that's right a rage boost from going Ikari.

That still leaves the question. What the hell is Super Saiyan 3?! "The form he atained while in other world" is not acceptable. Golden Freeza was a ""form he attained while training". So why is THAT a bullshit form and SSj3 is fine to some people? It was never implied you can go beyond SSj2. SSj1, SSj2 and SSj God were all set up throught their arc as evolution's. SSj3 was just "OH I go beyond btw.". SSj Blue can at least get a pass cause it's explanation is that it's SSj+SSj God.

And I'll say again. Ikari has been out less then 5 months. Yet we're comparing it to SSj2 and SSj3 NOW 20 years later and not those forms when they first came out. You're using knowledge from video games and supplementary material over the past 20 years to explain forms. After they first appeared SSj2 wasn't named much like Ikari wasn't named. SSj3 wasn't explained much like Ikari wasn't explained. Which furthers my point that DRAGON BALL SUPER is just doing more of DRAGON BALL Z.

[Simere]

The only thing you have a point on is Gotenks somehow knowing SSJ3. Every other "asspull" you mentioned in Z is either explained or a well-established plot point.

The shit that happens in Super are clearly just there to move the plot forward.

SSJ3 was never explained in-universe.

It's as explained as any SSJ form before it. Goku's whole speech before it was all the explanation needed.

That still leaves the question. What the hell is Super Saiyan 3?! "The form he atained while in other world" is not acceptable. Golden Freeza was a ""form he attained while training". So why is THAT a bullshit form and SSj3 is fine to some people?

The form isn't what most people don't like about Golden Freeza, it's how quickly he got it.

It was never implied you can go beyond SSj2. SSj1, SSj2 and SSj God were all set up throught their arc as evolution's. SSj3 was just "OH I go beyond btw."

Going beyond in the first places puts the idea in your head. Just like how people are now speculating there's something beyond Zeno or realms beyond the universes; the series establishing a higher level than the one we knew makes it no surprise when they introduce an even higher one later.