Does Dragonball Minus fix this Plothole in BoG?

[kaialone]

This is something that just hit me:

Back when BoG came out, something that was considered to be a minor plothole was the fact that it's said that Beerus went to sleep 39 years ago and did not witness Freeza destroying planet Vegeta, which would not make sense if we assume it was destroyed around the time Goku was born, as seen in the Bardock special.

However, if Dragonball Minus is anything to go by, it would seem that in Toriyama's mind, he pictured Planet Vegeta's destruction to have happened when Goku was around 3, or at least he did at the time of drawing Minus.

If Vegeta was destroyed when Goku was 3, the 39 years thing would make sense again, with Goku technically being around 41 when BoG takes place.

Do you think that thus BoG was basically showing us a hint of when Toriyama actually pictured these events to take place, in contrast to the history we've all come to accept without question, or do you think maybe this is just a coincidence and BoG did get ot wrong?

(Sorry if this has been brought up before)

[Grimlock]

I think it was a coincidence, it's not like chronology is something that the authors like Toriyama gives too much thought on it. That's why we always get "some time later", "a few years has passed", "in a near future" and stuff like that, then we should break our minds to figure what "some time later" exactly means. While it does "fix" it, Dragon Ball Minus brings a plothole, Freeza knows about Super Saiyan God but it is nowhere to be heard when he's always talking about Super Saiyan throughout his saga.

[TheGreatness25]

Minus creates many plot holes, even if it does fix Battle of Gods's one. For one thing, Goku was not sent to Earth as a baby anymore. Gohan found Goku, who was basically a newborn, naked in the woods. Goku wasn't a toddler wearing Saiyan armor. Then, every single time that Goku was told that he was sent to Earth as a baby, there are plot holes there now. Then the Burdock story -- both of them.

So while it might fix one thing, it damages many others. But either way, whatever lol I kind of separated Dragon Ball Minus. I know it's hard to do, but since it's not the story that was so engrained in me, I just read it almost like a "side story." In reality, it doesn't affect anything that happened in Dragon Ball or Z (except the Burdock stories, which in themselves were side stories).

[ecrockedboston]

Minus was just a sales ploy to sell Jaco, I'm pretty sure...

[Gog]

Minus was just a sales ploy to sell Jaco, I'm pretty sure...

No, Minus was only a small rushed special chapter at the end. Jaco selled well on it's own

[TheGreatness25]

Yeah, I don't think that it was done just to help Jaco sales. I don't know how many issues of Jaco there were, but DBM came at the end.

[VegettoEX]

Jaco was serialized over the course of July to September 2013 in Weekly Shonen Jump spanning 11 total chapters. It was a complete story.

The Jaco collected edition came in April 2014, which is when the "Dragon Ball Minus" chapter was included; it was not a part of the original WSJ serialization. It was absolutely used as a marketing splash to promote Jaco's collected release.

[ecrockedboston]

Jaco was serialized over the course of July to September 2013 in Weekly Shonen Jump spanning 11 total chapters. It was a complete story.

The Jaco collected edition came in April 2014, which is when the "Dragon Ball Minus" chapter was included; it was not a part of the original WSJ serialization. It was absolutely used as a marketing splash to promote Jaco's collected release.

I wasn't going to argue with anyone over it, but it's pretty obvious it was done for marketing purposes. Especially when you consider it's rushed nature, and the fact that it adds nothing of value to the overall story.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Do you think that thus BoG was basically showing us a hint of when Toriyama actually pictured these events to take place, in contrast to the history we've all come to accept without question, or do you think maybe this is just a coincidence and BoG did get ot wrong?

Jaco was originally scheduled to be released alongside Battle of Gods, but was delayed due to Toriyama compromising his health by trying to work on the chapters the same way he did durring Slump and DB. Seeing how the initial Jaco story already sets up the AGE 739 timeframe before DBMinus was ever revealed, via Omori stating the story takes place 10 years before the start of DB (AGE 749), I'm going to go ahead and say it was likely intentional.

Minus creates many plot holes, even if it does fix Battle of Gods's one. For one thing, Goku was not sent to Earth as a baby anymore. Gohan found Goku, who was basically a newborn, naked in the woods. Goku wasn't a toddler wearing Saiyan armor. Then, every single time that Goku was told that he was sent to Earth as a baby, there are plot holes there now. Then the Burdock story -- both of them.

So while it might fix one thing, it damages many others. But either way, whatever lol I kind of separated Dragon Ball Minus. I know it's hard to do, but since it's not the story that was so engrained in me, I just read it almost like a "side story." In reality, it doesn't affect anything that happened in Dragon Ball or Z (except the Burdock stories, which in themselves were side stories).

It only harms anime exclusive material. Jaco is a Toriyama story, and fits without significant issue with the material he's written (his manga, BoG, "F", etc), which is basically all he's shown to care about after quasi-retconning our presumed assumption that the Bardock TV Special was accepted in manga continuity instead of just those two panels.

[Lunaar]

Minus creates many plot holes, even if it does fix Battle of Gods's one. For one thing, Goku was not sent to Earth as a baby anymore. Gohan found Goku, who was basically a newborn, naked in the woods. Goku wasn't a toddler wearing Saiyan armor. Then, every single time that Goku was told that he was sent to Earth as a baby, there are plot holes there now. Then the Burdock story -- both of them.

I haven't seen anyone bring this up (though, I'm sure I can't be the only one), but - with the except of the ending of Burdock's TV Special* - every single one of those scenes with Goku as a nekkid baby are not only flashbacks, but flashbacks of a dead Grandpa Gohan. We never get a flashback from him. If I'm not mistaken, Kame Sen'nin was the first one to recall the story that had been passed from Gohan and it was the first time we see this interpretation. I sincerely doubt that this was their intention all along, but if you really are looking for ways for this all to make sense... the whole "this can't be right because Goku was a different age and didn't have armor" bit isn't really valid evidence. Goku's departure from Planet Vegeta is definitely the biggest contradiction.

*Yeah, we get the scene at the end of the TV Special that is undoubtedly not a flashback, but Minus already contradicts the special entirely. It's irrelevant.

[TheGreatness25]

But that's beside the point. Yeah, I know that Toriyama's work is the manga, etc. etc. But we're talking about a story that has been engraved in us for two decades, that was approved by Toriyama. Now, two decades later, we're being told to kind of alter the story that we have known all this time. Again, personally, I stopped caring about the canon vs non canon thing and I look at the material for what it is. The truth is that Minus does not significantly alter anything that happens later on aside from flashbacks and the Burdock story (which were anime-only), but from the perspective of a fan that has been told, "This is the story," and then 20 years later be told, "Nope, now it's this," is kind of too much. It seems like a barrage of stuff all at once. GT's replacement, Burdock's story changing, finding out that Freeza was told by Beerus to destroy Vegeta, new transformations, etc., etc., it's kind of a lot of deviation from the classic story and instead of just building on the story, the story is actually changing. Personally, I'm starting to not care, but there is a small part of me that's saying, "Damn, just leave the fucker alone; that's so insignificant that it's not even worth changing." Sometimes it seems like changes for the sake of changes and that's kind of dangerous territory for such an iconic series, as evidenced by the fact that this thread would even exist. Obviously the community is split on this. I think that the new material should have built on the story instead of changing the foundation; then we wouldn't have these splits.

Let me just ask this question: Am I supposed to ignore the Burdock special that I have on DVD, Blu-ray, have seen countless times, and have acknowledged for 20 years just because Akira Toriyama came out with a tiny little manga that contradicts it? As a fan, I can't do that. I don't care what Toriyama says, the story is what I know it as and I can't just change it just because the creator got a bug up his ass 20 years later and decided to change some stuff just for fun. It doesn't work that way. If Stan Lee decided to write a reboot comic that had Spider-Man as an alien, we wouldn't just up and make everything that came before it irrelevant. And that's in direct response to this:

but Minus already contradicts the special entirely. It's irrelevant.

[Lunaar]

Let me just ask this question: Am I supposed to ignore the Burdock special that I have on DVD, Blu-ray, have seen countless times, and have acknowledged for 20 years just because Akira Toriyama came out with a tiny little manga that contradicts it? As a fan, I can't do that. I don't care what Toriyama says, the story is what I know it as and I can't just change it just because the creator got a bug up his ass 20 years later and decided to change some stuff just for fun. It doesn't work that way. If Stan Lee decided to write a reboot comic that had Spider-Man as an alien, we wouldn't just up and make everything that came before it irrelevant. And that's in direct response to this:

but Minus already contradicts the special entirely. It's irrelevant.

Not necessarily, no. You can take one or the other, but not both. The original 42-volume manga run of Dragon Ball from 1984-1995 contains no reference to events shown within the TV Special, nor Minus. The great(?) thing about the franchise at this point is that nothing could possibly make it all fit cohesively. There were inconsistencies during it's serialization run too. As loving fans, we're free to choose what matters to us and how we interpret events. Dragon Ball is truly becoming a legend of it's own that will be passed down for generations. Canon vs. non-canon will simply become interpretation after enough time has passed.

That got a little preachy at the end there, my apologies.