Is Goku to be blamed if anybody dies in the Tournament?

[Cipher]

So while Jim is ultimately not at all innocent for choosing to interact with Trevor, the blame is mainly and primarily on Trevor himself for committing such a horrendous and arguably unpredictable act.

Fair. I guess it's not so much a question of who's ultimately the most culpable (which would be Zeno, absolutely), but one of "Is Goku in some way culpable? Did he do something reprehensible?"

And he did. Even if it came from a place of innocent trust as much as selfishness, he chose to gamble with everyone's lives for no truly justifiable reason. He just thought he had better odds than he did.

[Kanassa]

Goku is to blame in part, but it's indirect blame that we can't really fault him for. Like another analogy somone brought up, it's like a friend you've never had any bad interactions with, but your family keep saying that he's gonna get you killed, then you joke about shooting up a building and he goes and does just that. Yes, people you respected or were at least close to did say he was dangerous, but after your interactions, you really had no reason to think as them as more than paranoid. You're partly to blame, but no one's gonna treat you like you should of known.

I'm not sure a real-world parallel really applies in this case.

It's more like,

"Goku, we're nuclear physicists. I know you're thinking about touching that bomb, and you can only imagine it'll be fine, but listen, even for the one-in-a-thousand chance you set that bomb off, don't go near it."

"But I really like touching cold things. That bomb looks super cold. You're worrying too much. I'm gonna touch it."

"You have no idea what will happen if you touch that bomb. Wanting to touch a cold thing is not a good reason. Don't fuck around with everyone like this. It doesn't matter how much you love touching cold things. We're lucky it hasn't gone off already."

Then he touches the cold thing.

...Or ... something.

I'd say it's more like those physicists telling him to not eat his sandwich near it, because there's a chance that the crumbs will float away and get stuck somewhere.

[Cipher]

I'd say it's more like those physicists telling him to not eat his sandwich near it, because there's a chance that the crumbs will float away and get stuck somewhere.

Then the responsible action would be to eat your sandwich further away from the bomb.

... I think.

[Kanassa]

I'd say it's more like those physicists telling him to not eat his sandwich near it, because there's a chance that the crumbs will float away and get stuck somewhere.

Then the responsible action would be to eat your sandwich further away from the bomb.

... I think.

Well, the sandwich is probably no longer edible by this point

[Cipher]

We need to save Goku's sandwich.

[MathSSJ]

We need to save Goku's sandwich.

But will there be a training arc before the Sandwich Saving arc?

[SansrivaaL]

Its crazy how its all over the fanbase not just here but outside other forums/youtube/tumblr etc. blames everything on Goku some are even in rage because of this, how they're making this such a big deal without an actual episode yet involving the stakes, fans sure knows how to roll from time to time.
I'll be sure that next time when someone forgets something I wont remind them of things, didnt know it can revert to it being all your fault for reminding someone of shiz you didnt know what it could bring.

[DuckBoy]

Goku is the Uncle Scrooge of the DB universe, he's selfish, but kind hearted and good inside.

Also uh, has accidentally almost ended the world on many occasions. Man, gotta love them!!!

[TheMathemagician]

Its crazy how its all over the fanbase not just here but outside other forums/youtube/tumblr etc. blames everything on Goku some are even in rage because of this, how they're making this such a big deal without an actual episode yet involving the stakes, fans sure knows how to roll from time to time.
I'll be sure that next time when someone forgets something I wont remind them of things, didnt know it can revert to it being all your fault for reminding someone of shiz you didnt know what it could bring.

The real problem to me is going over the internet and seeing people actually defending Z Goku's actions as if they weren't as bad as the action Goku did here. Goku was completely in character here. Some may not want to believe it, but Super's Goku really isn't all that different from Z Goku.

[Babbu]

Its crazy how its all over the fanbase not just here but outside other forums/youtube/tumblr etc. blames everything on Goku some are even in rage because of this, how they're making this such a big deal without an actual episode yet involving the stakes, fans sure knows how to roll from time to time.
I'll be sure that next time when someone forgets something I wont remind them of things, didnt know it can revert to it being all your fault for reminding someone of shiz you didnt know what it could bring.

The real problem to me is going over the internet and seeing people actually defending Z Goku's actions as if they weren't as bad as the action Goku did here. Goku was completely in character here. Some may not want to believe it, but Super's Goku really isn't all that different from Z Goku.

I disagree. Goku's character is not that of a heroic superman or anything, but this feels like they've taken his personality and multiplied it by about a billion. When he has to be Goku can be something other than a gibbering oaf who only cares about fighting strong guys. Like he can rub two brain cells together every once in a while in Z. Here he is just being a total jerkass.

[HeroR]

I disagree. Goku's character is not that of a heroic superman or anything, but this feels like they've taken his personality and multiplied it by about a billion. When he has to be Goku can be something other than a gibbering oaf who only cares about fighting strong guys. Like he can rub two brain cells together every once in a while in Z. Here he is just being a total jerkass.

The only real different is that Zen'o is much stronger than Vegeta (who murdered thousands of people before changing) and Frieza (who came back and tried to blow up the Earth and succeeded once). Even in the original Dragon Ball he chose to the tournament over stopping Piccolo by any means since his death meant Piccolo takes over the world.

At least with Zen'o, Goku is on friendly terms. The other people I named were all villains.

[TheMathemagician]

Its crazy how its all over the fanbase not just here but outside other forums/youtube/tumblr etc. blames everything on Goku some are even in rage because of this, how they're making this such a big deal without an actual episode yet involving the stakes, fans sure knows how to roll from time to time.
I'll be sure that next time when someone forgets something I wont remind them of things, didnt know it can revert to it being all your fault for reminding someone of shiz you didnt know what it could bring.

The real problem to me is going over the internet and seeing people actually defending Z Goku's actions as if they weren't as bad as the action Goku did here. Goku was completely in character here. Some may not want to believe it, but Super's Goku really isn't all that different from Z Goku.

I disagree. Goku's character is not that of a heroic superman or anything, but this feels like they've taken his personality and multiplied it by about a billion. When he has to be Goku can be something other than a gibbering oaf who only cares about fighting strong guys. Like he can rub two brain cells together every once in a while in Z. Here he is just being a total jerkass.

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

[SsjCookie]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

BUT...had Krillin killed Vegeta, there would be no Trunks, and without Trunks Goku would have died of the heart virus.
And without Goku everyone would have died.

So by sparing Vegeta he ultimately saved himself and the rest of the Z gang.

So maybe some of his actions are selfish, they sometimes turn out for the best.

[ChronoTwigger]

And, as for over-intellectualizing, the whole mess was started by Beerus visiting Earth, so now you know the culprit.

Lets carry on that thing then ..

Beerus ONLY Had a Dream AND A NAME , Super Saiyan God . He didnt know a name or where could he find him . Its when he saw SSj Goku beat Freeza did he have a clue of where to start .

Beerus JUST gave Freeza the permission to kill the Saiyans .

Freeza Killed the Saiyans leading to EVERYTHING that happened So far in DBU



So , Freeza is the Real Culprit . Hell , lets say King Cold is one REAL Culprit because :

• He was the Mutant of his Species to get the ASTONISHING Power Level
• HE FREAKING Gave Birth to Freeza

And that smart inquire close any discussion, to me. Damned King Cold!! And damned mutations!

[Nejishiki]

He can use his nimbus because he's said to be totally pure-hearted. Selfisheness to the degree he displayed in today's episode, AFTER getting directly warned by both Whis and Beerus of potential dangerous consequences, rather disqualifies him from being pure hearted. It's playing with fire on a massive scale, with multiple warnings, just because he wants to have some fights.

Dragon World's standards for purity wouldn't disqualify him from riding Kinto'un. Goku has dangerously acted in his own interests before & Kinto'un has yet to change its opinion. I think it's worth mentioning selfishness & purity may coexist. More specifically, if it doesn't consider Goku's thoughts wicked, then (in Kinto'un's mind, at least) it's fair to say Goku genuinely thought Beerus & Whis were blowing hot air, through his perspective.

Re: General Subject Matter
Overall, Goku incorrectly guessed Zeno's modus operandi, which is a part of his nature (assuming the best out of individuals) & a character flaw in & out of itself. Let's not neglect that he considers Zeno as one of his companions. That goes for Beerus & Whis, too. It's not as if he views them as "gods to follow", just individuals who assist him in becoming stronger so that he may surpass them. However, no one is forcing Zeno to destroy universes. Beforehand, he did so in anger (Universe 13-18; Zamasu's infection, present Zeno & Future Zeno respectively). In this situation, without provocation, it seems Zeno decided the destruction condition on his own & without emotional manipulation.

[TheMikado]

Goku is one hundred percent at fault based on this exchange. Its obvious hes willing to risk the consequences at the risk of his family and friends. This is not supposed to be his character at all.

In Universe in episode 77 the just confirmed in universe, that Goku and Omniking are the REAL dangers to the universe. I would add the following clip as evidence to the original post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKdmoPZZUWo

Beerus: Just forget about the Marital Arts Tournament!

Goku: But it sounds really fun! We get to find out who's the strongest in all the universes!
See? With this button, I can go right to Zen chan's.

Beerus: Fool! (Jumps in Goku's face yelling) I'm warning you, don't get involved with Zen-Oh sama!

Goku: (Yelling back) Why? I just want him to hold the tournament!

Whis: I can't agree with this either. There's no telling what will happen.

Goku: (Goku smiling) You mean there might be someone really terrible?

Beerus: (Shoves Goku) Wrong. Zen-Oh sama's the real danger here.

Goku: He's not that bad.

Beerus: Don't press your luck! Zen-Oh sama may be innocent and noble, but that innocence makes him dangerous.
Don't forget that he has the power to erase the universe itself.

Goku: (Stern face) I know. I saw him do that right in front of me. (Serious smile) It'll be fine.
Press this side and Zen chan comes. This side and I go to him. Which should I press?

Beerus: Listen. Don't do it. Do not press that button. (Holds hand to Goku's face threatening a blast)
Perhaps I've been too lenient with you. (Goku scows) ... your naive nature could be a menace to the universe.
(Intense stand off for a few moments of tension, and then goku pretends to throw the button away.

Goku: Fooled you. (And presses the button anyway)

Goku and Zen-Oh are literally the enemies this time around. Even the music is characteristic antagonist music.
Further, I've had the theory since the Universe 6 tournament arc and Zen-ohs appearance I've had the theory that Zeno-Oh would reset or delete the universe.
This exchange strongly, strongly implies this is a real and true possibility.

[TheMathemagician]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

BUT...had Krillin killed Vegeta, there would be no Trunks, and without Trunks Goku would have died of the heart virus.
And without Goku everyone would have died.

So by sparing Vegeta he ultimately saved himself and the rest of the Z gang.

So maybe some of his actions are selfish, they sometimes turn out for the best.

Yes, but none of them knew that. At the time, Goku had zero justification for sparing Vegeta's life. If that's the case, why not just assume this action of his here will turn out for the best like all the other times? Who knows, by the end of this Goku might just get all those universes back. Goku sparing Vegeta was literally no different in how terrible of an action it was than what he did in this episode, which is why it's baffling that people are defending Z Goku. Super Goku is practically the same, especially in this episode.

He can use his nimbus because he's said to be totally pure-hearted. Selfisheness to the degree he displayed in today's episode, AFTER getting directly warned by both Whis and Beerus of potential dangerous consequences, rather disqualifies him from being pure hearted. It's playing with fire on a massive scale, with multiple warnings, just because he wants to have some fights.

Dragon World's standards for purity wouldn't disqualify him from riding Kinto'un. Goku has dangerously acted in his own interests before & Kinto'un has yet to change its opinion. I think it's worth mentioning selfishness & purity may coexist. More specifically, if it doesn't consider Goku's thoughts wicked, then (in Kinto'un's mind, at least) it's fair to say Goku genuinely thought Beerus & Whis were blowing hot air, through his perspective.

Re: General Subject Matter
Overall, Goku incorrectly guessed Zeno's modus operandi, which is a part of his nature (assuming the best out of individuals) & a character flaw in & out of itself. Let's not neglect that he considers Zeno as one of his companions. That goes for Beerus & Whis, too. It's not as if he views them as "gods to follow", just individuals who assist him in becoming stronger so that he may surpass them. However, no one is forcing Zeno to destroy universes. Beforehand, he did so in anger (Universe 13-18; Zamasu's infection, present Zeno & Future Zeno respectively). In this situation, without provocation, it seems Zeno decided the destruction condition on his own & without emotional manipulation.

This too. We know Goku guessed incorrectly, but we know he genuinely believed Zeno to be an okay guy (doesn't disregard the recklessness or selfishness of the action though).

[TheMikado]

This is nothing like Z where he let opponents that he's ALREADY beaten go. He was showing mercy to opponents he's overcome and would likely do so again in the future.
If Zeno-Oh decides he gets pissed and wants to destroy the universe, what is Goku going to do? Fight him?

[DBZAOTA482]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

You make it sound like Goku threatened Krillin or something. He was actually rather apologetic about letting Vegeta live and even regrets his decision later on.

[TheMikado]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

You make it sound like Goku threatened Krillin or something. He was actually rather apologetic about letting Vegeta live and even regrets his decision later on.

Exactly, even with his Gohan, Cell, and sensu bean BS, he recognizing that him merely being alive doesn't seem to do the world much good so he decided he would put the world in jeopardy inadvertently by being alive.
Now he is actively putting universes in jeopardy by antagonizing the one guy capable of instantaneously destroying it and he has no means at all to stop. Goku went from avoiding risk to actively pursuing high risk situations.