Is Akira Toriyama trying to make us hate Goku?

[Ki Breaker]

The lines aren't supposed to be stupid, if they were intended by the author to be that, the manga version would be just that, which it's not..

Do you have Toriyama's script that tells you the intent? Toei and the manga are two different things that follows the same bare bone outline that you haven't seen, so you don't even know if Toriyama wrote dialog.

I have common sense, toriyama wrote goku all these years we know how his dialogues are supposed to sound, comparing manga and anime we can see toriyama didn't mention him to have such dumb lines, the manga is much more close to toriyama goku..

[TheMathemagician]

Got into Dragon Ball during my childhood. Massive Goku fan 15+ years, inspired me to bodybuild, taught me to stay strong and stand up to bullies. Super starts, my love for Goku is decreasing with every episode. Wtf, surely I aint the only one to be feeling this way?

You're definitely not, but I can't say I feel the same. He hasn't really changed all that much from me. I started the series reading the manga, so Super's Goku isn't really all that different from the manga. I honestly find Goku as of current one of the most interesting characters in the series.

[omaro34]

Hate is a strong word. I wouldn't use that word. I would use dislike instead.

I don't hate Goku at all, but I do dislike him at times.

I really liked Goku in Dragonball as a kid, and in Z he was tolerable because he didn't occupy as much screentime, but in Super, I do find him annoying at times; especially recently.

The episode that did it for me was when he hired Hit on himself and nearly died just so he can have a good fight. He didn't care about his family and friends worried, which reeks of selfishness and an entitled brat.

I know I mentioned this example before, but its gonna take me a while to get over it.

[HeroR]

I have common sense, toriyama wrote goku all these years we know how his dialogues are supposed to sound, comparing manga and anime we can see toriyama didn't mention him to have such dumb lines, the manga is much more close to toriyama goku..

Preference is not 'common sense'. And Goku had dumb lines in the manga and in the movies he personally wrote in Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' , so I don't see your point. And I also disagree with the manga being closer to Toriyama's Goku. That is just another author's interpretation of what they think Goku is like.

Hate is a strong word. I wouldn't use that word. I would use dislike instead.

I don't hate Goku at all, but I do dislike him at times.

I really liked Goku in Dragonball as a kid, and in Z he was tolerable because he didn't occupy as much screentime, but in Super, I do find him annoying at times; especially recently.

The episode that did it for me was when he hired Hit on himself and nearly died just so he can have a good fight. He didn't care about his family and friends worried, which reeks of selfishness and an entitled brat.

I know I mentioned this example before, but its gonna take me a while to get over it.

Honestly, that was the most in-character thing I have seen Goku do in all of Super, anime and manga. When it was revealed, it was, 'yeah, that would be something he would do'. Especially since Goku admit he was being selfish, just like he did when he let Vegeta go just so he can fight him again.

[Ki Breaker]

I have common sense, toriyama wrote goku all these years we know how his dialogues are supposed to sound, comparing manga and anime we can see toriyama didn't mention him to have such dumb lines, the manga is much more close to toriyama goku..

Preference is not 'common sense'. And Goku had dumb lines in the manga and in the movies he personally wrote in Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' , so I don't see your point. And I also disagree with the manga being closer to Toriyama's Goku. That is just another author's interpretation of what they think Goku is like.

Isn't it your interpretation that I am interpreting something many others interpret the same way I am interpreting it because all we say is interpretation in our way?

You don't think it's closer to manga goku is your interpretation, not a fact either

[HeroR]

Isn't it your interpretation that I am interpreting something many others interpret the same way I am interpreting it because all we say is interpretation in our way?

You don't think it's closer to manga goku is your interpretation, not a fact either

I never claimed that the anime was closer to Toriyama's interpretation than the manga. I said in general Super is closer to Toriyama's interpretation of Goku. You're the one saying as a fact that the Super manga is closer to Toriyama's Goku, which I don't agree with. Honestly, neither of them are really Toriyama's Goku. They have different aspects of Toriyama's Goku, but neither of them are him.

[gohan_black]

do you really believe that they would destroy a universe? not gonna happen they would reveal that they said it just to motivate the fighters

[Ki Breaker]

Isn't it your interpretation that I am interpreting something many others interpret the same way I am interpreting it because all we say is interpretation in our way?

You don't think it's closer to manga goku is your interpretation, not a fact either

I never claimed that the anime was closer to Toriyama's interpretation than the manga. I said in general Super is closer to Toriyama's interpretation of Goku. You're the one saying as a fact that the Super manga is closer to Toriyama's Goku, which I don't agree with. Honestly, neither of them are really Toriyama's Goku. They have different aspects of Toriyama's Goku, but neither of them are him.

How can this kind of thing be a fact? When will it be considered as a fact to you? Will toie have to come and officially announce goku is dumb as shit in super?

There are no fact regarding what makes person mature, wording matters, I am sure there are many people who will agree goku sounds like a brain dead in super, if we don't have facts to go on, common sense is the way to go, or as your version says " interpretation"

[TheMikado]

Got into Dragon Ball during my childhood. Massive Goku fan 15+ years, inspired me to bodybuild, taught me to stay strong and stand up to bullies. Super starts, my love for Goku is decreasing with every episode. Wtf, surely I aint the only one to be feeling this way?

You're not, the fact that you're even bothering to come onto this forum or watch the show at all means you're already less casual than 90% of the western audience who will watch Super. If you're noticing a stark difference in Goku imagine how all those other people may feel?

I'm giving it to the end of the arc but I'm calling it now, it's possible Supers characterization of Goku could reverse the international success of the Dragonball franchise. They've already stated that western audiences prefer more "macho" protagonists. If audiences are presented with Goku as "he was always suppose to be like this" it may make the character and subsequent merchandising less marketable to a western audience. Basically wiping away the "cool" "heroic" factor maybe fine for hardcore audiences but may damage the franchise internationally and long term.

[Fizzer]

I feel like Goku has been this way even since he came back from being dead for seven years, but we had less of a chance to see it in the Buu arc due to what was going on at the time. It isn't like he didn't make some awful decisions then though. He decided to leave Majin Buu for Goten and Trunks to deal with, after being partially responsible for releasing him, and that was a mistake - Goku had to stop Buu himself in the end anyway.

Goku wanted to stay dead. He wanted to escape his responsibilities and fight and train without a care in the world for the rest of eternity, and for seven years he lived that dream. It's really no wonder he came back more childlike than his Freeza/Cell arc self who'd been shaped by the events in his life at the time. This wake up call may be what he needs.

[GodVegetto91]

Got into Dragon Ball during my childhood. Massive Goku fan 15+ years, inspired me to bodybuild, taught me to stay strong and stand up to bullies. Super starts, my love for Goku is decreasing with every episode. Wtf, surely I aint the only one to be feeling this way?

Perhaps Goku isn't the best character for you to focus on then? Maybe start thinking about a character switch? Vegeta is much more mature and laidback. And possesses all the pride and battle personalities Goku has. (Or well, a lot of them) so maybe you should focus on him instead.

[TheMikado]

Got into Dragon Ball during my childhood. Massive Goku fan 15+ years, inspired me to bodybuild, taught me to stay strong and stand up to bullies. Super starts, my love for Goku is decreasing with every episode. Wtf, surely I aint the only one to be feeling this way?

Perhaps Goku isn't the best character for you to focus on then? Maybe start thinking about a character switch? Vegeta is much more mature and laidback. And possesses all the pride and battle personalities Goku has. (Or well, a lot of them) so maybe you should focus on him instead.

I don't think Supers Vegeta would be a good fit with the way he allows himself to be humiliated multiple times. I would say Trunks but he literally ends up with the worse ending after all his hard work. And Gohan... well..

[Totamo]

The execution of his mistakes makes a lot difference. In Z when he made mistakes he was somewhat serious about it. When he spared Vegeta and Piccolo. It didn't feel like it was meant to be funny. I can't say the same thing about this whole onmi king tourny, or all the weird things he did in the black arc. Goku always been this way but the scale keeps going up and just because it's consistent doesn't mean it doesn't wear on you every time it happens. He could stand to lose some of that naivete.

I distinctly remember the moment he throw the Potara earring at Gohan only to miss by about five feet, in a moment when Gohan was beaten half to death and Super Boo was on the verge of winning, as something that was immediately played of as a joke, despite the seriousness of the scenario.

I put that one squarely on Gohan he should have caught that I think even Goku was surprised that Gohan's reflexes were that bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hCYRbV6KkU Plus Goku this is a perfect example of contrast. Goku was in a serious monologue, pulled a gag and came back into his persona.

Chivalry.

Not a good excuse at all.

This is yet another example of contrasting that "fight-hungry" Z Goku that people keep stating. That is a myth. There are plenty of examples in Z where Goku turns down a fight.
Goku was NOT battle crazy in Z.
He turned down Raditz and didn't want to fight him head on.
He turned down fighting Cell.
He didn't insist on fighting 16 to test his power.
He turned down fight Buu so the kids could get a go.
He wanted to turn down fighting Majin Vegeta and had to be blackmailed into it by killing people.

Stop acting like Z Goku was looking for an excuse to jump into a fight because he wasn't.

Wat!! This is such bullshit, my friend.

Goku didn't just want to fight raditz, he was also afraid of him. Making that entire moment out of character as Goku is never afraid of a fight no matter how powerful, he gets excited, not frightened.

Goku did not turn down fighting cell, he was the first one up. Hell, Goku had fun with cell and Cell had fun with Goku.

Why would Goku want to fight 16, who was weaker than Cell, hell in super, Goku didn't try fighting Cabba or Magetta. Because they aren't worth the time

He did not turn down fighting buu, he did fight buu, but he stopped because he wanted his kids to do it, just like Cell. Because just like cell, goku projected himself onto his sons, which piccolo even points on during cell.

I would have given the majin vegeta fight to you if not for the fact, he threatens supreme kai for trying to stop it because it would revive buu, oh and he fights vegeta on an even level despite having a higher transformation.

You failed here.

[HeroR]

How can this kind of thing be a fact? When will it be considered as a fact to you? Will toie have to come and officially announce goku is dumb as shit in super?

There are no fact regarding what makes person mature, wording matters, I am sure there are many people who will agree goku sounds like a brain dead in super, if we don't have facts to go on, common sense is the way to go, or as your version says " interpretation"

You said clearly that the manga is closer to Toriyama's Goku. Not that 'you think' the manga is closer to Toriyama's Goku. And you're once again exaggerating to prove a point since Goku is only 'dumb as shit' a few times that fans keep harping on.

I don't agree, so don't force your opinion onto me, especially the 'common sense' line.

[Totamo]

do you really believe that they would destroy a universe? not gonna happen they would reveal that they said it just to motivate the fighters

Watch people get pissed off when it doesn't happen despite being mad its going to happen

[HybridSaiyan]

Got into Dragon Ball during my childhood. Massive Goku fan 15+ years, inspired me to bodybuild, taught me to stay strong and stand up to bullies. Super starts, my love for Goku is decreasing with every episode. Wtf, surely I aint the only one to be feeling this way?

You're not, the fact that you're even bothering to come onto this forum or watch the show at all means you're already less casual than 90% of the western audience who will watch Super. If you're noticing a stark difference in Goku imagine how all those other people may feel?

I'm giving it to the end of the arc but I'm calling it now, it's possible Supers characterization of Goku could reverse the international success of the Dragonball franchise. They've already stated that western audiences prefer more "macho" protagonists. If audiences are presented with Goku as "he was always suppose to be like this" it may make the character and subsequent merchandising less marketable to a western audience. Basically wiping away the "cool" "heroic" factor maybe fine for hardcore audiences but may damage the franchise internationally and long term.

That's the thing here. The way Goku is being portrayed now will definitely damage the western audience. UNLESS, Sean tries to focus on that heroic trait he gave him back in the Funi dub. It's the same for the UK also, we grew up with this hero Goku who always cared for others and innocent lives. When I see Goku act so selfish and reckless in these situations, it really turns me off his character. There's a line he says to Frieza which I always reflect on in life. "I don't understand why you call Saiyans by such mindless names, the only thing it does is reveal your own fear and ignorance. I guess name calling is your only attack, because you're too weak to challenge me any other way."

Now, I can never see Goku in Super showing such maturity like this.

I guess BF's heroic score helps bring the heroic Goku out more too. I think only die hard fans prefer the more selfish, fighting obsessed Goku. I don't really care for original material, if i've taken a liking to someone or something, I'm not gonna change my mind because it isn't "original"

[Ki Breaker]

How can this kind of thing be a fact? When will it be considered as a fact to you? Will toie have to come and officially announce goku is dumb as shit in super?

There are no fact regarding what makes person mature, wording matters, I am sure there are many people who will agree goku sounds like a brain dead in super, if we don't have facts to go on, common sense is the way to go, or as your version says " interpretation"

You said clearly that the manga is closer to Toriyama's Goku. Not that 'you think' the manga is closer to Toriyama's Goku. And you're once again exaggerating to prove a point since Goku is only 'dumb as shit' a few times that fans keep harping on.

I don't agree, so don't force your opinion onto me, especially the 'common sense' line.

In a conversation nobody repeats "I think" all the time, it's basic interpretation..
Not forcing anything on you, take you want leave the rest

[HybridSaiyan]

Got into Dragon Ball during my childhood. Massive Goku fan 15+ years, inspired me to bodybuild, taught me to stay strong and stand up to bullies. Super starts, my love for Goku is decreasing with every episode. Wtf, surely I aint the only one to be feeling this way?

Perhaps Goku isn't the best character for you to focus on then? Maybe start thinking about a character switch? Vegeta is much more mature and laidback. And possesses all the pride and battle personalities Goku has. (Or well, a lot of them) so maybe you should focus on him instead.

I'm seeing more of "EOZ, GT" Vegeta in his character now, which I like. He's training but...the obsession to be the best is dying in exchange for his family.

[HeroR]

In a conversation nobody repeats "I think" all the time, it's basic interpretation..
Not forcing anything on you, take you want leave the rest

In a forum where opinion is often stated as fact, yes you need to make it clear when something is an opinion.

When you used the term 'common sense' and say stuff like, 'Toei have to come and officially announce goku is dumb as shit in Super', this gives the impression that your opinion is more right.

[Ki Breaker]

In a conversation nobody repeats "I think" all the time, it's basic interpretation..
Not forcing anything on you, take you want leave the rest

In a forum where opinion is often stated as fact, yes you need to make it clear when something is an opinion.

Nope, not going to include my opinion and I think all the time when it's widely known fact nobody has toriyama's scripts and it's all up in the air..

Explaining if it's officially stated to a newbie is fine but to a knowledgeable member like you this shouldn't be necessary..