Is Akira Toriyama trying to make us hate Goku?

[PsionicWarrior]

I still think nothing will ever top Goku giving Cell a senzu. There's just no justification for that at all.

Chivalry.

[Lord Beerus]

I still think nothing will ever top Goku giving Cell a senzu. There's just no justification for that at all.

Chivalry.

Not a good excuse at all.

[TheMikado]

The execution of his mistakes makes a lot difference. In Z when he made mistakes he was somewhat serious about it. When he spared Vegeta and Piccolo. It didn't feel like it was meant to be funny. I can't say the same thing about this whole onmi king tourny, or all the weird things he did in the black arc. Goku always been this way but the scale keeps going up and just because it's consistent doesn't mean it doesn't wear on you every time it happens. He could stand to lose some of that naivete.

I distinctly remember the moment he throw the Potara earring at Gohan only to miss by about five feet, in a moment when Gohan was beaten half to death and Super Boo was on the verge of winning, as something that was immediately played of as a joke, despite the seriousness of the scenario.

I put that one squarely on Gohan he should have caught that I think even Goku was surprised that Gohan's reflexes were that bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hCYRbV6KkU Plus Goku this is a perfect example of contrast. Goku was in a serious monologue, pulled a gag and came back into his persona.

I still think nothing will ever top Goku giving Cell a senzu. There's just no justification for that at all.

Chivalry.

Not a good excuse at all.

This is yet another example of contrasting that "fight-hungry" Z Goku that people keep stating. That is a myth. There are plenty of examples in Z where Goku turns down a fight.
Goku was NOT battle crazy in Z.
He turned down Raditz and didn't want to fight him head on.
He turned down fighting Cell.
He didn't insist on fighting 16 to test his power.
He turned down fight Buu so the kids could get a go.
He wanted to turn down fighting Majin Vegeta and had to be blackmailed into it by killing people.

Stop acting like Z Goku was looking for an excuse to jump into a fight because he wasn't.

[LunarMoon]

Oh come now. Goku enjoys fighting, but not wiping out civilizations.

Episode 78 set up the precedent that Goku doesn't care about causing the death of zillions as long as he can get a good fight out of it, which is what Raditz promised.

But hey, who am I to interrupt the sociopath Goku narrative.

This is exactly how a sociopath would react.

[Boo Machine]

He turned down Raditz and didn't want to fight him head on.
He turned down fighting Cell.
He didn't insist on fighting 16 to test his power.
He turned down fight Buu so the kids could get a go.
He wanted to turn down fighting Majin Vegeta and had to be blackmailed into it by killing people.

Stop acting like Z Goku was looking for an excuse to jump into a fight because he wasn't.

He didn't stand a chance against Raditz at the time. Battle crazy or not, it would be asking to be killed to fight him on his own.
But he didn't turn down the fight. In fact he was the first one to fight. He just submitted that he couldn't win.
Why would he want to test his power against 16? He should know he is way stronger at that point and 16 was in repair until the cell games. There was no time even if he wanted to.
Letting the kids have a go at Buu is probably the only example here I can understand.
And instead of finishing the match as quickly as possible with Majin Vegeta with SSJ 3 he chose to fight him evenly and ended up unleashing Majin Buu.

I'm not trying to disagree with the notion that Goku isn't as battle crazy as people say. At least not entirely. But I don't feel these examples are very good except for letting the kids beat majin buu.

[Boo Machine]

Episode 78 set up the precedent that Goku doesn't caring about causing the death of zillions as long as he can get a good fight out of it, which is exactly what Raditz promised.

What you said implies that Goku Knowingly traded lives for fun. Which isn't the case.

This is exactly how a sociopath would react.

Goku definitely should have less of a casual attitude when he is talking about the situation here, sure, I don't think many disagree with that. But he already acknowledged he fucked up and that there isn't a whole lot he could do about it. Which is true. There isn't much he can do about except fight and and win for his universe. Which is what he plans on doing. The characters yelling at Goku for the entire episode wouldn't solve anything and Goku and the other characters know that, which is why they don't spend much time doing so.

Sociopath implies he doesn't care at all. Which isn't the case. We have seen too many moments where he obviously has a conscience.

Oblivious? Yes

To be blamed? At least partly.

Could have been handled better? Dear god yes.

Sociopath? Definitely not.

[TheMikado]

He turned down Raditz and didn't want to fight him head on.
He turned down fighting Cell.
He didn't insist on fighting 16 to test his power.
He turned down fight Buu so the kids could get a go.
He wanted to turn down fighting Majin Vegeta and had to be blackmailed into it by killing people.

Stop acting like Z Goku was looking for an excuse to jump into a fight because he wasn't.

He didn't stand a chance against Raditz at the time. Battle crazy or not, it would be asking to be killed to fight him on his own.
But he didn't turn down the fight. In fact he was the first one to fight. He just submitted that he couldn't win.
Why would he want to test his power against 16? He should know he is way stronger at that point and 16 was in repair until the cell games. There was no time even if he wanted to.
Letting the kids have a go at Buu is probably the only example here I can understand.
And instead of finishing the match as quickly as possible with Majin Vegeta with SSJ 3 he chose to fight him evenly and ended up unleashing Majin Buu.

I'm not trying to disagree with the notion that Goku isn't as battle crazy as people say. At least not entirely. But I don't feel these examples are very good except for letting the kids beat majin buu.

Ok, well we can do it the opposite way then. Goku never turns down a fight in Super even when he can't win against a super strong opponent. We know the gap between Goku in the opponents he's faced was much much bigger than the gap between him and Raditz or him and Cell. In Super he fights to the point where he will take a 90% chance of wreaking his body just to continue a fight who some claim was meaningless, yet he then throws said fight because he cant get a good full fight out of it. Point I'm making is that Goku isn't choosing his battles more wisely as he gets older, its the opposite.

[TheMikado]

Oh come now. Goku enjoys fighting, but not wiping out civilizations.

Episode 78 set up the precedent that Goku doesn't care about causing the death of zillions as long as he can get a good fight out of it, which is what Raditz promised.

But hey, who am I to interrupt the sociopath Goku narrative.

This is exactly how a sociopath would react.

This is the scene where I would expect Goku to have that darkened moment realizing what the stakes mean and that a lot of people are going to die. Instead of seeming remorseful he focuses on "authority figures" scolding him.
Its an incredibly serious situation and he doesn't give it its due. Again its not just this one instance and as I have said before would be fine in isolation, but its the pattern of this behavior that makes it grating.

[Lord Beerus]

The execution of his mistakes makes a lot difference. In Z when he made mistakes he was somewhat serious about it. When he spared Vegeta and Piccolo. It didn't feel like it was meant to be funny. I can't say the same thing about this whole onmi king tourny, or all the weird things he did in the black arc. Goku always been this way but the scale keeps going up and just because it's consistent doesn't mean it doesn't wear on you every time it happens. He could stand to lose some of that naivete.

I distinctly remember the moment he throw the Potara earring at Gohan only to miss by about five feet, in a moment when Gohan was beaten half to death and Super Boo was on the verge of winning, as something that was immediately played of as a joke, despite the seriousness of the scenario.

I put that one squarely on Gohan he should have caught that I think even Goku was surprised that Gohan's reflexes were that bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hCYRbV6KkU Plus Goku this is a perfect example of contrast. Goku was in a serious monologue, pulled a gag and came back into his persona.

Chivalry.

Not a good excuse at all.

This is yet another example of contrasting that "fight-hungry" Z Goku that people keep stating. That is a myth. There are plenty of examples in Z where Goku turns down a fight.
Goku was NOT battle crazy in Z.
He turned down Raditz and didn't want to fight him head on.
He turned down fighting Cell.
He didn't insist on fighting 16 to test his power.
He turned down fight Buu so the kids could get a go.
He wanted to turn down fighting Majin Vegeta and had to be blackmailed into it by killing people.

Stop acting like Z Goku was looking for an excuse to jump into a fight because he wasn't.

That Potara is 100% Goku's fault because couldn't simply throw it right at Gohan. Goku's aim was so off. Yeah, Gohan could have reacted quicker but by the time he was ready to catch the earing it had already fallen in the rubble.

Are we going to forget that Goku let Vegeta live so he could fight him again? Or when he ignored King Kai's warning of confronting Freeza because he was excited about the prospect of fighting him? Or when he dismissed Bulma's advice to kill Dr Gero before he activates the Androids because he wanted to challenge himself in combat against them? Or giving Cell a seznu to make his battle with Gohan more intriguing? Or not turning into a SSJ3 and ending his battle with Vegeta instantly and preventing Majin Boo form being resurrected because he wanted to entertain himself with Vegeta as SSJ2 instead?

But hey, who am I to interrupt the sociopath Goku narrative.

This is exactly how a sociopath would react.

You need to look up the term "sociopath", because that is not the behaviour of a sociopath. Goku is just stating what he already knows.

[Boo Machine]

He turned down Raditz and didn't want to fight him head on.
He turned down fighting Cell.
He didn't insist on fighting 16 to test his power.
He turned down fight Buu so the kids could get a go.
He wanted to turn down fighting Majin Vegeta and had to be blackmailed into it by killing people.

Stop acting like Z Goku was looking for an excuse to jump into a fight because he wasn't.

He didn't stand a chance against Raditz at the time. Battle crazy or not, it would be asking to be killed to fight him on his own.
But he didn't turn down the fight. In fact he was the first one to fight. He just submitted that he couldn't win.
Why would he want to test his power against 16? He should know he is way stronger at that point and 16 was in repair until the cell games. There was no time even if he wanted to.
Letting the kids have a go at Buu is probably the only example here I can understand.
And instead of finishing the match as quickly as possible with Majin Vegeta with SSJ 3 he chose to fight him evenly and ended up unleashing Majin Buu.

I'm not trying to disagree with the notion that Goku isn't as battle crazy as people say. At least not entirely. But I don't feel these examples are very good except for letting the kids beat majin buu.

Ok, well we can do it the opposite way then. Goku never turns down a fight in Super even when he can't win against a super strong opponent. We know the gap between Goku in the opponents he's faced was much much bigger than the gap between him and Raditz or him and Cell. In Super he fights to the point where he will take a 90% chance of wreaking his body just to continue a fight who some claim was meaningless, yet he then throws said fight because he cant get a good full fight out of it. Point I'm making is that Goku isn't choosing his battles more wisely as he gets older, its the opposite.

You're not entirely wrong . Against Hit, he had absolutely no reason to use such a life threatening attack for a battle that had no real consequence. ( I mean the earths would be switched but the characters themselves acknowledge that this isn't a huge issue.) Then he hires hit to come kill him for a good fight. But his bromance with Hit is really the only thing I can think of when I see Goku being reckless in his battle choosing. You may be able to make a case with his first fight against Beerus. Maybe.

Otherwise every other fight was necessary, I feel.

[HeroR]

Oh come now. Goku enjoys fighting, but not wiping out civilizations.

Episode 78 set up the precedent that Goku doesn't care about causing the death of zillions as long as he can get a good fight out of it, which is what Raditz promised.

But hey, who am I to interrupt the sociopath Goku narrative.

This is exactly how a sociopath would react.

First, look up the proper definition of the word sociopath.

Also, Goku cares about saving his universe. That is his first priority over the others. Not even Gohan or the Supreme Kai are worried about the multiverse. Only their universe. So it isn't just Goku.

[Freeza9000]

Oh come now. Goku enjoys fighting, but not wiping out civilizations.

Episode 78 set up the precedent that Goku doesn't care about causing the death of zillions as long as he can get a good fight out of it, which is what Raditz promised.

But hey, who am I to interrupt the sociopath Goku narrative.

This is exactly how a sociopath would react.

Guess that makes me a sociopath for not caring for the lives on a distant planet being declined. Plus, Goku does show a form of objection towards Zen'o's rule as he wanted at one point to ask Zen'o to change the rule. It's just that there's nothing that can be done about it. So either way, it's a lose-lose situation.

[PsionicWarrior]

Not a good excuse at all.

Well you asked for a "justification", that you think is a good one or not is irrelevant, bleblebleble

[dragonballgeek]

You people act like it's not possible to change when you get older.


Yeah I don't like how they have dumb down Goku in Super, but it's a lot more bearable when you see it as Goku is succmbing to his saiyan side more and more while maintaining his natural state of naivety.

Side note: I kinda like how Vegeta prioritizes his family over training. It gives a much more believable reason why he's not as strong as Goku instead of him just being the main character.

[dragonballgeek]

I distinctly remember the moment he throw the Potara earring at Gohan only to miss by about five feet, in a moment when Gohan was beaten half to death and Super Boo was on the verge of winning, as something that was immediately played of as a joke, despite the seriousness of the scenario.

I put that one squarely on Gohan he should have caught that I think even Goku was surprised that Gohan's reflexes were that bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hCYRbV6KkU Plus Goku this is a perfect example of contrast. Goku was in a serious monologue, pulled a gag and came back into his persona.

Not a good excuse at all.

This is yet another example of contrasting that "fight-hungry" Z Goku that people keep stating. That is a myth. There are plenty of examples in Z where Goku turns down a fight.
Goku was NOT battle crazy in Z.
He turned down Raditz and didn't want to fight him head on.
He turned down fighting Cell.
He didn't insist on fighting 16 to test his power.
He turned down fight Buu so the kids could get a go.
He wanted to turn down fighting Majin Vegeta and had to be blackmailed into it by killing people.

Stop acting like Z Goku was looking for an excuse to jump into a fight because he wasn't.

That Potara is 100% Goku's fault because couldn't simply throw it right at Gohan. Goku's aim was so off. Yeah, Gohan could have reacted quicker but by the time he was ready to catch the earing it had already fallen in the rubble.

Are we going to forget that Goku let Vegeta live so he could fight him again? Or when he ignored King Kai's warning of confronting Freeza because he was excited about the prospect of fighting him? Or when he dismissed Bulma's advice to kill Dr Gero before he activates the Androids because he wanted to challenge himself in combat against them? Or giving Cell a seznu to make his battle with Gohan more intriguing? Or not turning into a SSJ3 and ending his battle with Vegeta instantly and preventing Majin Boo form being resurrected because he wanted to entertain himself with Vegeta as SSJ2 instead?

But hey, who am I to interrupt the sociopath Goku narrative.

This is exactly how a sociopath would react.

You need to look up the term "sociopath", because that is not the behaviour of a sociopath. Goku is just stating what he already knows.

I'm also sure Goku didn't want to kill Dr. Gero partially because he hadn't done anything yet.

[SsjCookie]

Oh come now. Goku enjoys fighting, but not wiping out civilizations.

Episode 78 set up the precedent that Goku doesn't care about causing the death of zillions as long as he can get a good fight out of it, which is what Raditz promised.

But hey, who am I to interrupt the sociopath Goku narrative.

This is exactly how a sociopath would react.

This is the scene where I would expect Goku to have that darkened moment realizing what the stakes mean and that a lot of people are going to die. Instead of seeming remorseful he focuses on "authority figures" scolding him.
Its an incredibly serious situation and he doesn't give it its due. Again its not just this one instance and as I have said before would be fine in isolation, but its the pattern of this behavior that makes it grating.

I hoped his reaction in this particular scene would have been a bit more....emphatic?
And I really was like "WTF Goku you ass, millions are going to die just because you want a stupid tournament, how selfish can you get?!"
and he's like " Boohoo, I've been scolded by Beerus, no fair!""
Again a serious situation is being downplayed and it feels rather unnatural, I was hoping for a more extreme reaction from Goku, Gohan and Beerus.

[HeroR]

You people act like it's not possible to change when you get older.


Yeah I don't like how they have dumb down Goku in Super, but it's a lot more bearable when you see it as Goku is succmbing to his saiyan side more and more while maintaining his natural state of naivety.

Side note: I kinda like how Vegeta prioritizes his family over training. It gives a much more believable reason why he's not as strong as Goku instead of him just being the main character.

He prioritizes his family over training once. Vegeta is the same person who left his family for six months to train with Whis and never tried to communicate with Bulma. Goku has always been seen with his family several times while Vegeta is training.

I hoped his reaction in this particular scene would have been a bit more....emphatic?
And I really was like "WTF Goku you ass, millions are going to die just because you want a stupid tournament, how selfish can you get?!"
and he's like " Boohoo, I've been scolded by Beerus, no fair!""
Again a serious situation is being downplayed and it feels rather unnatural, I was hoping for a more extreme reaction from Goku, Gohan and Beerus.

No one's dead yet, so he has no reason to be emphatic. And his reaction wasn't, 'Beerus scolded it, it isn't fair'. It was more, 'yeah, I am aware of what I've done. Everyone yelled at me about it earlier'.

That is because the fans care about the multiverse. The actual characters, really don't. They're thinking of their universe.

[SsjCookie]

You people act like it's not possible to change when you get older.


Yeah I don't like how they have dumb down Goku in Super, but it's a lot more bearable when you see it as Goku is succmbing to his saiyan side more and more while maintaining his natural state of naivety.

Side note: I kinda like how Vegeta prioritizes his family over training. It gives a much more believable reason why he's not as strong as Goku instead of him just being the main character.

He prioritizes his family over training once. Vegeta is the same person who left his family for six months to train with Whis and never tried to communicate with Bulma. Goku has always been seen with his family several times while Vegeta is training.

I hoped his reaction in this particular scene would have been a bit more....emphatic?
And I really was like "WTF Goku you ass, millions are going to die just because you want a stupid tournament, how selfish can you get?!"
and he's like " Boohoo, I've been scolded by Beerus, no fair!""
Again a serious situation is being downplayed and it feels rather unnatural, I was hoping for a more extreme reaction from Goku, Gohan and Beerus.

No one's dead yet, so he has no reason to be emphatic. And his reaction wasn't, 'Beerus scolded it, it isn't fair'. It was more, 'yeah, I am aware of what I've done. Everyone yelled at me about it earlier'.

That is because the fans care about the multiverse. The actual characters, really don't. They're thinking of their universe.

Either way, his light-heartedness about these matters is what annoys me the most really, it's not how a normal person should react.
Especially after seeing the disastrous end of the Future Trunks arc this feels even more sour.
But than again, Goku is a Saiyan and doesn't think like a human.

[SansrivaaL]

Either way, his light-heartedness about these matters is what annoys me the most really, it's not how a normal person should react.
Especially after seeing the disastrous end of the Future Trunks arc this feels even more sour.
But than again, Goku is a Saiyan and doesn't think like a human.

Like when Gohan said "you'll take responsibility if something goes bad right?" and Goku was "I wont know till that time comes...."
We will see how Goku reacts more when he actually see's it happen, but in all seriousness, theres nothing he can do, would we rather see him be emo throughout the arc? blaming himself and getting depressed rather than focusing on winning? theres no time for feeling bad about whats already done so I'm all up with how Goku's taking the current situation.

[Ki Breaker]

Either way, his light-heartedness about these matters is what annoys me the most really, it's not how a normal person should react.
Especially after seeing the disastrous end of the Future Trunks arc this feels even more sour.
But than again, Goku is a Saiyan and doesn't think like a human.

Like when Gohan said "you'll take responsibility if something goes bad right?" and Goku was "I wont know till that time comes...."
We will see how Goku reacts more when he actually see's it happen, but in all seriousness, theres nothing he can do, would we rather see him be emo throughout the arc? blaming himself and getting depressed rather than focusing on winning? theres no time for feeling bad about whats already done so I'm all up with how Goku's taking the current situation.

Like I said in another thread, this is the super version which is causing this problem.. Just wait and see the manga version roll in and we should see a perfect execution of this situation with much better wording even if the feelings are the same..

The dub should fix whatever issues there are with wording if necessary too