In Defense of Son Goku

[sintzu]

Come on guys let's have serious discussions here about why Goku ISN'T as bad as the new-gen fans of Dragon Ball are saying.

I've been a fan since 2004 or 2005 and I can't even defend him at this point.

The only thing we can do to show them he's a really good character is show them the original manga/anime. He's done stupid things in the original but they can somehwat be defended, I can't defend any of his actions in Super.

[ShadowBardock89]

At least he won't be getting a tail and horns like what Super's Goku will get when he kicks the bucket.

What evil deeds has Goku commited to earn a place in Hell? I must have missed something.

Because of him there won't even BE an afterlife. Are you forgetting Zen-Oh can wipe out EVERYTHING!?

[Boo Machine]

I've been a fan since 2004 or 2005 and I can't even defend him at this point.

The only thing we can do to show them he's a really good character is show them the original manga/anime. He's done stupid things in the original but they can somehwat be defended, I can't defend any of his actions in Super.

Why not? What decisions does Goku make in the original that can be justified, and what has Goku done in Super that makes them Unjustifiable?

Because of him there won't even BE an afterlife. Are you forgetting Zen-Oh can wipe out EVERYTHING!?

Yes. But goku himself isn't doing the wiping out. All Goku did. Ask for a tournament. It's not like he asked for a death penalty to make it more interesting. He deserves part blame for setting the actions into motion but I still fail to see what makes him Evil. Careless, sure. But not evil and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

This is the 3rd Goku thread to pop up to bash Goku. TODAY. It's gotten more than ridiculous. Especially when he has risked lives on purpose before.

[sintzu]

What decisions Goku make in the original that can be justified, and what has Goku done in Super that makes them Unjustifiable?

The way he acts in Super, he acts a lot more childish compared to how he did in Z. He doesn't really care that much about anyone or anything in Super while he did in DB & Z.

[MarcBigleague]

Some say Light Yagami was being childish when he said he is God of the new world.

Some say Batman was being childish when he turned on the Justice League.

Some say Walter White was being childish when he said "I am the one knocks"

Some say Gilgamesh from Fate Stay Night was childish 24/7.

Anti-hero Goku has been born, I say.

[Boo Machine]

What decisions Goku make in the original that can be justified, and what has Goku done in Super that makes them Unjustifiable?

The way he acts in Super, he acts a lot more childish compared to how he did in Z. He doesn't really care that much about anyone or anything in Super while he did in DB & Z.

Acts more childish sure. But I've also seen signs of caring when he spends time with his family and bothers to do his farming job, when he could easily just skip out on all of that anytime.

I've seen him care for the planet when Beerus wanted to blow it up.

I've seen him get angry at what freeza did when he got back to earth.

I've seen him actually concerned when Champa wanted to waste his entire team.

I've seen him care about his family when Black told him about his famliy.

I've seen him care about Trunks enough to keep going back to fight an immortal monster. And concerned when Trunks timeline was destroyed.

But he is a little goofier and he asked for a tournament that he had no idea would have a death penalty to it and suddenly he is a villain. Excuse me for thinking some people are REALLY reaching here.

I've still yet to hear many decisions where he WILLINGLY risked lives and have them be justified in Z.

[TheMathemagician]

What decisions Goku make in the original that can be justified, and what has Goku done in Super that makes them Unjustifiable?

The way he acts in Super, he acts a lot more childish compared to how he did in Z. He doesn't really care that much about anyone or anything in Super while he did in DB & Z.

He sure certainly cared about the good of the world when he threatened Supreme Kai, purposely ignored him and became 50% of the reason why Boo was released. Then he ups and leaves Goten and Trunks to clean up a mess he started and could have easily avoided. There really isn't any defending of most of his actions in Z. I won't ever defend his actions in Super, but to think it's any worse than what he's done in Z is crazy. The guy started a tournament fueled by the purely selfish reason of the good of the fight, the same thing that fuels many of his decisions even back in the Z portion of the manga.

What decisions Goku make in the original that can be justified, and what has Goku done in Super that makes them Unjustifiable?

The way he acts in Super, he acts a lot more childish compared to how he did in Z. He doesn't really care that much about anyone or anything in Super while he did in DB & Z.

Acts more childish sure. But I've also seen signs of caring when he spends time with his family and bothers to do his farming job, when he could easily just skip out on all of that anytime.

I've seen him care for the planet when Beerus wanted to blow it up.

I've seen him get angry at what freeza did when he got back to earth.

I've seen him actually concerned when Champa wanted to waste his entire team.

I've seen him care about his family when Black told him about his famliy.

I've seen him care about Trunks enough to keep going back to fight an immortal monster. And concerned when Trunks timeline was destroyed.

But he is a little goofier and he asked for a tournament that he had no idea would have a death penalty to it and suddenly he is a villain. Excuse me for thinking some people are REALLY reaching here.

I've still yet to hear many decisions where he WILLINGLY risked lives and have them be justified in Z.

It just seems like a lot of people like to disregard his good moments in Super to solely focus on the bad.

[Avok]

Why not? What decisions does Goku make in the original that can be justified, and what has Goku done in Super that makes them Unjustifiable?

It's not only about his decisions, but his whole character seems ten times more dumber and gullible most of the time.

[Boo Machine]

Why not? What decisions does Goku make in the original that can be justified, and what has Goku done in Super that makes them Unjustifiable?

It's not only about his decisions, but his whole character seems ten times more dumber and gullible most of the time.

That's fine. If you don't like how Super handles some of his traits then that's understandable. I totally get where you're coming from on that. But to pretend he didn't make bone headed decisions that risked peoples lives in the original run is ridiculous.

[sintzu]

He sure certainly cared about the good of the world when he threatened Supreme Kai, purposely ignored him and became 50% of the reason why Boo was released.

Then he ups and leaves Goten and Trunks to clean up a mess he started.

The Kai kept going on and on about how strong babidi's minions were yet he and Vegeta wiped them out like they were nothing so you can't blame him for not taking his worning seriously.

He was dead so he wanted the living characters to be able to take care of themselves without him.

[TheMathemagician]

He sure certainly cared about the good of the world when he threatened Supreme Kai, purposely ignored him and became 50% of the reason why Boo was released.

Then he ups and leaves Goten and Trunks to clean up a mess he started.

The Kai kept going on and on about how strong babidi's minions were yet he and Vegeta wiped them out like they were nothing so you can't blame him for not taking his worning seriously.

He was dead so he wanted the living characters to be able to take care of themselves without him.

Yes, he didn't take the warning seriously, just like with the case with Zen'o. They brought up how Goku witnessed Zen'o destroyed Trunks' timeline, and that was obviously for a justified cause. They also tried warning him not to get close to Zen'o but it was literally the fact that Goku got close to Zen'o that he, Trunks, and Vegeta are even alive now, and that Zamasu is dead and not seeping into other timelines.

[Boo Machine]

He sure certainly cared about the good of the world when he threatened Supreme Kai, purposely ignored him and became 50% of the reason why Boo was released.

Then he ups and leaves Goten and Trunks to clean up a mess he started.

The Kai kept going on and on about how strong babidi's minions were yet he and Vegeta wiped them out like they were nothing so you can't blame him for not taking his worning seriously.

He was dead so he wanted the living characters to be able to take care of themselves without him.

Kind of like how Beerus keeps going on and on about how wild Zeno is, yet every interaction Goku has had with him has been pleasant. Future Zeno didn't know Goku at the time so of course there was no stopping him. Not that there were many other ways to stop the threat they were facing at the time anyway.

He may have been dead and was totally in the right when it comes to training the next generation, however he states he could have beaten Fat Buu when he fought him but chose not to, willingly letting Buu go on a killing spree that he very much knew he was going to do.

[Avok]

That's fine. If you don't like how Super handles some of his traits then that's understandable. I totally get where you're coming from on that. But to pretend he didn't make bone headed decisions that risked peoples lives in the original run is ridiculous.

He did, those moments were handled much better too. As I see it, Super's Goku is an overexaggeration of the Goku of the original material.

[Boo Machine]

That's fine. If you don't like how Super handles some of his traits then that's understandable. I totally get where you're coming from on that. But to pretend he didn't make bone headed decisions that risked peoples lives in the original run is ridiculous.

He did, those moments were handled much better too. As I see it, Super's Goku is an overexaggeration of the Goku of the original material.

I don't know how much I'd agree with how much better it was handled, honestly. But yeah, Super exaggerates Gokus traits in a way that some fans obviously don't appreciate.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

What decisions Goku make in the original that can be justified, and what has Goku done in Super that makes them Unjustifiable?

The way he acts in Super, he acts a lot more childish compared to how he did in Z. He doesn't really care that much about anyone or anything in Super while he did in DB & Z.

False. He doesn't care for anyone then he wouldn't work like Vegeta. Chichi can't stop him go training but he let's her.
Didn't you see how much he blew up when not his Chichi and Goten died? Wasn't very "childish" there.

In Z didn't exactly care about his friends emotions when letting Vegeta live, or completely just ignoring Trunks horrible future and not killing Gero's lab asap or when he didn't want to come back and ingored his sons pleas that he still needed a father? Or the fact he knocked up Chichi and that still wasnt a good enough reason for him to come back alive.

[SansrivaaL]

I think one of the reasons why people thinks Goku's childish, I dont know if its just me, but Nozawa's tone has gotten more childish when dubbing Goku, like over the top kiddie, I heard her Goku back in the original DB and Z, Goku didnt have that much tone to him.

[RisanF]

I think one of the problems is that some of the people defending Goku are actually harsher than his detractors. When someone criticizes the behavior of Super!Goku, usually there's a bunch of responses saying "he was always like that!", mentioning how "Goku lets Vegeta go" or how "Goku gave Cell a Sensu bean" with his genuinely heroic/empathetic/smart moments underplayed to fit Toriyama's interviews. People say that Super's Goku is more interesting than boy scouts like Superman, but is he? To me, he just seems kind of isolated, not really suffering any consequences or doing anything too interesting.

I think there's too many strawman arguments going around lately: "You just want Goku to be like FUNi Goku." He doesn't have to be just like FUNi GOku, but he needs some sort of involvement in the plot other than being a nuisance.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think one of the problems is that some of the people defending Goku are actually harsher than his detractors. When someone criticizes the behavior of Super!Goku, usually there's a bunch of responses saying "he was always like that!", mentioning how "Goku lets Vegeta go" or how "Goku gave Cell a Sensu bean" with his genuinely heroic/empathetic/smart moments underplayed to fit Toriyama's interviews. People say that Super's Goku is more interesting than boy scouts like Superman, but is he? To me, he just seems kind of isolated, not really suffering any consequences or doing anything too interesting.

I think there's too many strawman arguments going around lately: "You just want Goku to be like FUNi Goku." He doesn't have to be just like FUNi GOku, but he needs some sort of involvement in the plot other than being a nuisance.

I agree, but for the oposite reason to yours. People who "like" Goku are the very first to condemn his Super incarnation, ignoring all other evidence that he was always like that. They dont love Goku warts and all. Like the topic creator. And no one wants him to be like FUNi Goku... but Toei Goku is also a thing. At least the people who say "He was always like that" do like him warts and all...or hated him entirely, but even that is less hypocritical.

[gohan_black]

goku now is what toryama wanted him to be. what he was on z was what toei wanted him to be. a super hero. why? cuz its more profitable

[MarcBigleague]

goku now is what toryama wanted him to be. what he was on z was what toei wanted him to be. a super hero. why? cuz its more profitable

Toei did not influence what Goku was in the Z part of the manga... If there was any third-party influencing on Toriyama's portrayal of Goku, in the old manga, it would have been either Shueisha or the fans' reception.