Minus is the beginning of the end for the franchise (writing-wise, of course)

[sintzu]

It started before then.

In 2008 we got the OVA that not only introduced Vegeta's brother (even though he said no other Saiyans existed), it also started the trend of nice Saiyans that we're seeing now in U6.

In 2011 we got episode of Bardock that turned him into the 1st and legendary Ssj.

In 2013 BOG introduced Trunks×Mai and turned Videl from a character to just background moving ink. It also started the recolored Ssj trend. It alo forced Beerus into events he had no business being involved in like him being why Freeza destroyed the Saiyans.

[Zephyr]

Also, Goku... amoral?:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

He let Vegeta go, and he admitted he was doing so for a selfish reason. He let Freeza power up. He let Gero make the Androids. He threatened to kill Kaioshin for not letting him endanger the universe by fighting Vegeta. He didn't end the fight with Vegeta quickly. He's always been reckless and irresponsible for the sake of a good fight.

Well Minus had that bit of trivia where Toriyama says Goku doesn't care for Gohan and Chi-Chi as family members while Vegeta puts his family on a pedestal even though they practically the same priorities (training over everything).

Vegeta has always put a lot of stock into his heritage, his bloodline, his race, etc. Of course he would put his family on a pedestal in ways Goku wouldn't even begin to care about doing.

Minus also only happened because people wanted to know who Goku's mother was... after we had Freeza being resurrected (which was pandering at the highest order), Vegeta x Bulma being pushed to the extreme like the writers are shippers, the return of Future Trunks and an evil Goku who isn't really an evil Goku (not bad but definitely pandering), and a female Super Saiyan (which we don't know would a good or bad thing yet but it's most likely pandering).

For every bit of pandering, there are equal measures of "oh my god i cant believe akira is shitting on my boy gohan, ruining power levels, and giving us icky pedo ships!" and "i cant believe vegeta jobbed to freeza, hit, and black!". The lack of consistency has me thinking he's just doing whatever the hell he wants.

It started before then.

In 2008 we got the OVA that not only introduced Vegeta's brother (even though he said no other Saiyans existed), it also started the trend of nice Saiyans that we're seeing now in U6.

In 2011 we got episode of Bardock that turned him into the 1st and legendary Ssj.

In 2013 BOG introduced Trunks×Mai and turned Videl from a character to just background moving ink. It also started the recolored Ssj trend. It alo forced Beerus into events he had no business being involved in like him being why Freeza destroyed the Saiyans.

Don't forget in 1993 when Toriyama ruined Gohan.

[sintzu]

Don't forget in 1993 when Toriyama ruined Gohan.

Ruined him ? being the main character of the Cell games was the best thing he did with him.

[Gog]

Minus is probably the worst official work ever release for the entire franchise... well second only to Bio-Broly and Final Bout, but the effect it left on the franchise is not much better. Here's some shit it set up for:

You mean the shit that has been around for a long time in the franchise?

-Goku being an amoral and mentally challenged manchild who doesn't give a shit about his family

Goku has always been amoral he constantly and casually lets mass murdering monsters get away because they managed to give him a great battle and for the prospect of them giving him another great battle. Mentally challenged man child, eh I haven't seem much in Super to support that claim, sure he's more childish but that doesn't count as idiocy. What do you mean he dosen't give a shit about his family? Have you not forgotten one of the best scenes in the Future Trunks arc?

-Fanservice pandering to the max like sucking on Vegeta and his families' dicks

Fan service pandering has always been a thing of Toei, nothing new here. And how are they sucking on Vegeta and his families dicks? Only Vegeta, Bulma and Future Trunks have had any relevance. But even then it's mostly because of their skills.

-Yamcha being treated as nothing but a joke even by the series itself

Yamcha has always been a joke, there is literally nothing new here that your stating.

-Chi-Chi is nothing more than angry comic relief

That has always been the case when she was around. It's not something new.

-Trunks x Mai really being a thing

Battle Of God's basically made Trunks X Mai a thing, how does Minus have any relevance to that in any way?

Apart from introducing Gine, Minus is just one big malignant tumor that should've never existed. It pussified Bardock and took away his character development, ruined Goku's backstory, and treated Raditz like shit.

Of course Minus is one big tumor that never should have existed. But here's the thing all of your points for what Minus supposedly caused, are just plain false.

[Kanassa]

Amoral has always been apart of Goku's character, he's had dumb moments in Super but saying he's mentally challenged is asinine. And doesn't give a shit about his family? Out of all the dragonball material, Super shows us him actually caring about his family the MOST.

If not knowing what kissing is, wasting time asking useless questions and holding back when he knows Vegeta will die, forgetting the senzus to an important battle which requires the senzus, not understanding Krillin's speech, not learning from mistakes, and not understanding the gravity of a life-or-death situation isn't mentally challenged then I dunno what is.

You're right, you clearly don't know what is, thanks for admitting it.

Also aside from raging over Zamasu killing Chi-Chi and Goten there's very few moments that show he cares in Super. Besides, I wasn't just talking about Super.

As well as all the times he's been at home, bonding with Goten, being encouraging to Gohan's studies (Well, in the anime, the manga has him be more of a dick towards the times when GOhan shows up), he even went to Gohan's movie despite not enjoying it.

Also, Goku... amoral?:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Piccolo, Vegeta and Frieza. Goku let them survive because he wanted to fight them again (And in Vegeta's case he fully acknowledges that he never thought Vegeta would change. Even in the dub his reasons seemed more pride-related then anything else). The Buu and Cell situations further Gokus amoral additude, just because he's against needless killing, doesn't mean he isn't amoral.

Yamcha was always a joke, that was the basis of his character. Hell, Super has been very respectful to him and made him better, they didn't treat him as a joke, they made his number 1 meme a sign of victory.

Other than the baseball episode (which still mostly had jokes at his expense) he's only around to look like an arrogant fool.

He's around to remind the audience that the old Z-cast are there, he only looks like an arrogant fool because he IS an arrogant fool.

What's wrong with that being a thing?

Everything about it.

The characters, unlike most of the match ups in Dragonball, have actual chemistry and romance between them.

And as others have said, how does Minus set this up?

Well Minus had that bit of trivia where Toriyama says Goku doesn't care for Gohan and Chi-Chi as family members while Vegeta puts his family on a pedestal even though they practically the same priorities (training over everything). Minus also only happened because people wanted to know who Goku's mother was... after we had Freeza being resurrected (which was pandering at the highest order), Vegeta x Bulma being pushed to the extreme like the writers are shippers, the return of Future Trunks and an evil Goku who isn't really an evil Goku (not bad but definitely pandering), and a female Super Saiyan (which we don't know would a good or bad thing yet but it's most likely pandering).

So, Minus didn't set this up then?

[Lord Beerus]

DBZAOTA482, no offence, but I think you need to re-read the series, because all of the things you listed have no relation to Dragon Ball Minus. This feel like just a thread created for the purpose using the new material as a proxy to vent the issues you have with Dragon Ball that have long-standing before the new material was produced.

[Zephyr]

Don't forget in 1993 when Toriyama ruined Gohan.

Ruined him ? being the main character of the Cell games was the best thing he did with him.

I meant him in high school having slacked off for seven years. And I was being facetious.

[sintzu]

I meant him in high school having slacked off for seven years. And I was being facetious.

OK, He went Ssj2 on the 1st week of 1993 so that's why I thought that's what you were talking about. My bad.

I don't think him in high school was meant to be taken this way cause he was still strong during that time and he got his mystic form a bit afterwards.

[Zephyr]

he got his mystic form a bit afterwards.

And his Mystic form didn't amount to much. He lost his fight, failed to catch an earring, got absorbed, and took no part in the final battle.

[sintzu]

And his Mystic form didn't amount to much. He lost his fight, failed to catch an earring, got absorbed, and took no part in the final battle.

That's true when you look at it that way but he was still the strongest unfused character at the end of the Buu arc, that should count for something.

[DBZAOTA482]

You're right, you clearly don't know what is, thanks for admitting it.

Then what is it... not breathing?

As well as all the times he's been at home, bonding with Goten, being encouraging to Gohan's studies (Well, in the anime, the manga has him be more of a dick towards the times when GOhan shows up), he even went to Gohan's movie despite not enjoying it.

All we see of those bonding scenes is mostly just Goten hanging around and Goku simply being at home doesn't mean jackshit. The only time I recall him being slightly encouraging to Gohan studying was him smiling when hearing Gohan became a Scholar and moved in with Videl but Goku encouraged it in Z as well. We're never shown why Goku even bothered watching... he likely either did because Gohan kept bugging him about it or Chi-Chi threatened to beat his ass again.

just because he's against needless killing, doesn't mean he isn't amoral.

It most definitely does. Being amoral is indifference to morality and murder is immoral (which Goku is against). Also, Goku had to let Piccolo live because Kami would die if he was killed plus the dragonballs would disappeared. He also didn't see Piccolo is a bad guy... at least not pure evil like his father and that proved to be true. It's been shown Goku wasn't exactly himself when he first became Super Saiyan so weak point... and he took pity on Freeza.

Vegeta is the only one that you have a point on but Goku acknowledged it was selfish (his saiyan urges got the best of him fighting such a strong enemy) and later showed regret for letting him live.

The Cell and Boo arcs showed Goku at his most mature so again weak point.

He's around to remind the audience that the old Z-cast are there, he only looks like an arrogant fool because he IS an arrogant fool.

Yamcha is arrogant but he's far from foolish. He's shown to be a great strategist and has extensive fighting knowledge that even Kami himself praised.

The characters, unlike most of the match ups in Dragonball, have actual chemistry and romance between them.

Shit chemistry and romance. It's better to not try something you know would suck then do it anyways and fail spectacularly.

So, Minus didn't set this up then?

Except no title before it didn't try to cater for certain parts in the fanbase so shamelessly. It's definitely a precursor.

[OLKv3]

Actually, Chi Chi was pretty chill in the Android and Buu sagas. She's regressed since Super started

[Boo Machine]

he likely either did because Gohan kept bugging him about it or Chi-Chi threatened to beat his ass again.

Likely? You can't just use Probablys and maybes to prove a point. It doesn't help your case.

The Cell and Boo arcs showed Goku at his most mature so again weak point.

The most mature but still makes dumb decisions and knowingly puts lives at risk. Him being less goofy doesn't erase that.

Shit chemistry and romance. It's better to not try something you know would suck then do it anyways and fail spectacularly.

So it's better to stay stagnant and not try anything new because it MIGHT fail? If thats the case Goku should never have become an adult. No one would have gone through with it if they thought it would fail. That's just silly. They may as will stick to a formula and events they know fans would like as to not get backlash ever. But I think that might be catering to fans.

Except no title before it didn't try to cater for certain parts in the fanbase so shamelessly. It's definitely a precursor.

Catering and fanservice is such a vague thing that it doesn't help with your case if you're not going to be specific. Saying they are pandering and nothing else if something happens that you don't like doesn't tell us much of anything. What would be examples of NOT catering, pandering, or fan service?

I fail to see how Minus is the start of anything. It's such a small easily ignored thing. If you don't like what's going on then that's perfectly fine, but trying to pin it on any one thing is silly.

[DBZAOTA482]

Likely? You can't just use Probablys and maybes to prove a point. It doesn't help your case.

Considering the movie thing was such a vague example of Goku "caring" on Kanassa's part... the likely doesn't hurt my case at all.

The most mature but still makes dumb decisions and knowingly puts lives at risk. Him being less goofy doesn't erase that.

The only thing Cell arc Goku did wrong was not tell Gohan about his plan... which he had a reason not to and the only thing Boo arc Goku was not kill Boo when they first fought... which he also had a reason not to.

So it's better to stay stagnant and not try anything new because it MIGHT fail? If thats the case Goku should never have become an adult. No one would have gone through with it if they thought it would fail. That's just silly. They may as will stick to a formula and events they know fans would like as to not get backlash ever. But I think that might be catering to fans.

I never said anything close to that. In fact, I feel any idea can work no matter how unusual or ridiculous it may seem but Trunks x Mai is sometime so forced and out-of-left-field that it couldn't possibly work. No amount of those "kaiwaii" scenes can change that.

Catering and fanservice is such a vague thing that it doesn't help with your case if you're not going to be specific. Saying they are pandering and nothing else if something happens that you don't like doesn't tell us much of anything. What would be examples of NOT catering, pandering, or fan service?

I fail to see how Minus is the start of anything. It's such a small easily ignored thing. If you don't like what's going on then that's perfectly fine, but trying to pin it on any one thing is silly.

Simple... the story should depend on it's own merits and write what they think works not what a select group of people want.

But Minus is not a small thing despite it being a short bonus chapter. It's a story written by Toriyama that gives info to Goku's backstory including his parents and since seeing Goku's mother was at such high demand she was thrown in for the mix. Never before has the actual series done something like that.

[DBZAOTA482]

It started before then.

In 2008 we got the OVA that not only introduced Vegeta's brother (even though he said no other Saiyans existed), it also started the trend of nice Saiyans that we're seeing now in U6.

In 2011 we got episode of Bardock that turned him into the 1st and legendary Ssj.

In 2013 BOG introduced Trunks×Mai and turned Videl from a character to just background moving ink. It also started the recolored Ssj trend. It alo forced Beerus into events he had no business being involved in like him being why Freeza destroyed the Saiyans.

The OVA was just a fun standalone to celebrate the series. Aside from Tarble (don't really mind there being "nice" Saiyans), there's nothing seriously wrong with it IMO.

Episode of Bardock can just overlooked as bad fanfic.

In BoG, Trunks x Mai was treated as more of a joke but in Super they played the whole thing straight and really expected us to accept them as a pairing. Resurrection F was the one that started shoe-horning Beerus into events.

Also disagree on Videl. Maybe it's just me but she seems more like her old character in the movie than Super's arc adaptation (aside from her angrily glaring at Mr. Satan when he tried to run away).

[Boo Machine]

The only thing Cell arc Goku did wrong was not tell Gohan about his plan... which he had a reason not to and the only thing Boo arc Goku was not kill Boo when they first fought... which he also had a reason not to.

I think giving Cell a senzu would be way worse then not telling the plan. I don't see a reason other than "fair fight". Goku did have a reason in the Buu arc, sure. But it's not a good one. He still made it with the knowledge that Buu would kill people in the process and he had no guarantee that leaving the threat to someone else would work out. Especially since at the time the ones he was leaving it to were Goten and Trunks. And then he does the same thing again when fighting Kid Buu. Before that he agrees with Vegeta not to fuse because it wouldn't be fair to buu. And Way back when that whole miss started he could have beaten Majin Vegeta a lot quicker had he gone SSJ 3. But he doesn't so he avoids hurting Vegetas feelings.

I never said anything close to that. In fact, I feel any idea can work no matter how unusual or ridiculous it may seem but Trunks x Mai is sometime so forced and out-of-left-field that it couldn't possibly work. No amount of those "kaiwaii" scenes can change that.

I apologize for putting words in your mouth then. The ship may not have been the most layered thing. But its way more then what we got from other couples, the exception probably being Gohan and Videl. Who would have thought Vegeta and Bulma would have worked? At most the whole Trunks X Mai thing is meh and not even worth thinking about unless you happen to really like it.
I don't know what makes something "Forced". That's seems to be something a lot of people use lately to label something they don't like.

Simple... the story should depend on it's own merits and write what they think works not what a select group of people want.

But Minus is not a small thing despite it being a short bonus chapter. It's a story written by Toriyama that gives info to Goku's backstory including his parents and since seeing Goku's mother was at such high demand she was thrown in for the mix. Never before has the actual series done something like that.

Ok, but no matter what you do in a story, especially one this long and has quite a bit of lore, your going to hit a few notes that a part of the fanbase really likes. We can't just label wide appeal with pandering in every case. As long as said story is good and holds up on it's own merits I don't see anything wrong with the story having an element fans appreciate.

Minus is small though. It's, like 14 pages, and most people ignore it and it's very rarely referenced in anything. The preferred version of Bardock is still the one from the special and that's still the version used in every piece of Media or mech that features him. If the franchise continues and Minus ends up being the featured backstory in everything, THEN you'd have a point. But right now the only time I've even seen Gine was in heros and fusions. Two Video games that toss Dragonball everything into a huge pot of silliness.

[sintzu]

Resurrection F was the one that started shoe-horning Beerus into events.

I was talking about past events.

He told Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta, he was the one who sealed away the old Kai & he's why king Kai's planet is small.

Is that all ?

[RehBeh]

Resurrection F was the one that started shoe-horning Beerus into events.

I was talking about past events.

He told Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta, he was the one who sealed away the old Kai & he's why king Kai's planet is small.

Is that all ?

He also supposedly made the dinosaurs extinct.

[Zephyr]

The only thing Cell arc Goku did wrong was not tell Gohan about his plan... which he had a reason not to and the only thing Boo arc Goku was not kill Boo when they first fought... which he also had a reason not to.

Sure, if you pretend that he didn't let Gero create the Androids, pretend that he didn't threaten Kaioshin so that he could have a fight, and pretend that he didn't abstain from using Super Saiyan 3 to stop Vegeta immediately and fight him fairly after Buu was dealt with.

[Freeza9000]

Not really sure how one would think Minus started all of the content you are dissatisfied with happening now. Also, not even sure how anyone would come to the conclusion that Goku never gave a shit about his family. As a matter of fact, he would do anything to protect them and this is shown constantly in Super.
As for Goku being amoral, you mean to say selfish right? Cause you do remember that he once let genocidal assholes like Vegeta go because Vegeta was that much of a challenging opponent for Goku. Goku still has a sense of what's right and wrong too.