DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

[sintzu]

Really? The ENTIRE staff? I will admit I don't know much about the animation production of the original but I find it hard to believe they scrapped everybody and started fresh. I'm going to have to ask for more evidence than just "It's clearly different". Because I don't see that they are. As I've said the series doesn't suddenly become different. It's isn't instant.

It doesn't. Dragonball has plenty of merch, as in cards, and figures and the like. Dragonball is also in plenty of video games. Xenoverse didn't have them. The new game probably isn't going to have them. But they are in video games. Handhelds as well Unless you're going to draw the line at Console and say handhelds don't count.

Dragonball's footage is too old to be remastered in the way Kai's was anyway.

What does getting a Kai release even prove ?

No body even wanted Kai release.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarde ... eafa1f25e5

If they are they're a very small part in what usually is a Z focused game.

If there was a demand for it (I'd love to see it happen) it would've happened.

That there's a demand for it.

It did so well internatinally that the Buu arc was made for that market so clearly someone wanted it.

[Boo Machine]

Really? The ENTIRE staff? I will admit I don't know much about the animation production of the original but I find it hard to believe they scrapped everybody and started fresh. I'm going to have to ask for more evidence than just "It's clearly different". Because I don't see that they are. As I've said the series doesn't suddenly become different. It's isn't instant.

It doesn't. Dragonball has plenty of merch, as in cards, and figures and the like. Dragonball is also in plenty of video games. Xenoverse didn't have them. The new game probably isn't going to have them. But they are in video games. Handhelds as well Unless you're going to draw the line at Console and say handhelds don't count.

Dragonball's footage is too old to be remastered in the way Kai's was anyway.

What does getting a Kai release even prove ?

No body even wanted Kai release.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarde ... eafa1f25e5

If they are they're a very small part in what usually is a Z focused game.

If there was a demand for it (I'd love to see it happen) it would've happened.

That there's a demand for it.

It did so well internatinally that the Buu arc was made for that market so clearly someone wanted it.

It says staff changed. Doesn't say everyone changed. Even if they did try to go for a more serious tone, so what? it's still the same story with the same writing because it's from the same manga written by the same author. DBZ at the start doesn't even look much different from the end of Dragonball. It didn't suddenly change.

Whether it's small part or not wasn't in question. You asked if they were in games, and they were.

Can you say that with 100% certainty? Because there is still the issue of the old Dragonball footage being to old/ damaged to work with. Or just that Dragonball already works well enough on it's own that it's doesn't need a cut up version.

There wasn't though. Nobody wanted it. Kai was a desperate half assed effort to get Dragonball on T.V. again to see more merch. It's why it isn't reanimated. But instead a cut up version of the original.

The only reason the international market wanted it is because it got a better English Dub than the original. Which is pretty much it's only merit.

And, again, we aren't arguing Z's popularity. We know it' popular. Why did it's Popularity become your main focus? It's popularity wasn't even the original argument.

[sintzu]

Why did it's Popularity become your main focus ? It's popularity wasn't even the original argument.

If it couldn't be enjoyed on its own then it wouldn't have gotten as popular as it has. Wouldn't the original have gotten as popular if it was required to watch Z ?

[Boo Machine]

Why did it's Popularity become your main focus ? It's popularity wasn't even the original argument.

If it couldn't be enjoyed on its own then it wouldn't have gotten as popular as it has. Wouldn't the original have gotten as popular if it was required to watch Z ?

I didn't say it couldn't be enjoyed on it's own. I'm part of the group that did way back when I was 6 watching it on Toonami. But to say the original has no interest because it's outdated or it's "different" is what's ridiculous. It's all Dragonball. It's all one connected story with character arcs that cross over into the "Z portion". One maybe able to enjoy Z with out the original DB, but they aren't getting the full experience. They are missing a huge chunk of the story, which is fact.

[sintzu]

To say the original has no interest because it's outdated or it's "different" is what's ridiculous.

What would you say the reason for it being ignoared be if not that ? maybe I'm wrong but I can't think of anything else.

[Boo Machine]

To say the original has no interest because it's outdated or it's "different" is what's ridiculous.

What would you say the reason for it being ignoared be if not that ? maybe I'm wrong but I can't think of anything else.

Being ignored by the fans?

I don't know many who actually DO ignore it. Out of my entire group of friends and family that watch it, I know one guy that refuses to watch the Orginal Dragonball because he thinks it's just a prequel he doesn't need to watch. That's pretty much the only thing I can think of. That some fans who start with Z don't see DB as important for whatever reason. I've heard a few.

They don't like the weaker version of that characters
They think it's a unimportant prequel
Or they just don't care.

Or in some cases don't know about it because Z is so heavily marketed as the big "Main" series. Again, no one denies that Z is popular.

But it's very rare that I actually hear it's because it's out dated or different. I know many kids who like the Original just fine, and don't mind that it starts out goofier. There is this Guy on Reddit who knew nothing of Dragonball, but he lost a bet and has to watch the entire series. He has been giving his review of each saga, (he is currently in the Buu arc) and he put some Dragonball sagas as some of his favorite. He loves it despite being brand new to the series and starting with Dragonball. So it obviously still appeals to people.

[sintzu]

They don't like the weaker version of that characters, They think it's a unimportant prequel Or they just don't care. But it's very rare that I actually hear it's because it's out dated or different.

If that's the case then I guess I was wrong.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Sintzu what's the relation between DBZ being popular and DBZ being a stand-alone series (which you seen to be mixing in your arguments)?

[sintzu]

Sintzu what's the relation between DBZ being popular and DBZ being a stand-alone series (which you seen to be mixing in your arguments)?

If Z couldn't work as a stand-alone series then it wouldn't have left DB in the dust in terms of popularity. DB would be watched and supported just as much as Z if it was required to be watched before.

[Commodore Krevin]

Honestly, the only major difference between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z is the "Z" moniker. Yes, the initial tone of the first few arcs may greatly contrast with how the atmosphere changes when the story progresses around the time the Red Ribbon Army debut, but the overall overreaching narrative remains the same: It's the wonderful misadventures and great battles of a group of misfits martial artists. That core theme remain intact, regardless of silly and goofy the story may start out to be, from the Chapter 1 to Chapter 519.

And what makes the events of the portion of the story in Dragon Ball Z work so well is you see how much the characters progresses in terms of personality and skill when the dynamics of scenarios they are in change drastically at the drop of a hat. So much of what makes the Saiyan arc, Dragon Ball Z initial arc, work so well is because of the backdrop and context of the story prior to that arc. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with labeling Dragon Ball Z as a stand alone series and treating it as such, but on merit, it's very underwhelming stand alone story in regard. Dragon Ball Z doesn't really encompass the full experience of what makes Dragon Ball so good, despite what some people may say. Dragon Ball Z is much more more of a half-experience for what makes Dragon Ball's story so engrossing and simply wonderful.

Shrug. Maybe that's true but, and its possible my starting with "Z" colored my perceptions, I really found DB to be quite a different show. My experience was that DB was this comedic action-adventure show where Goku would get into these wacky adventures like fighting a pirate robot at the bottom of the sea. It had this more mystical vibe to it all and all these cartoon talking animal people which just existed. While "Z" was this more serious, more sci-fi oriented thing that really wasn't about adventures per say anymore. It was just about defeating the current big bad who typically came to them to fight anyway.

Obviously there is overlap. DB had more than its share of serious moments and "Z" could be light hearted in tone when it wanted to be. But I feel DB started as one thing and became "Z" rather than there being no difference between the two.

My two cents at least.

-Respectfully, Krevin

[Metalwario64]

They changed the entire staff with Z to better capture what the manga was doing instead of still working with the DR. Slump team. Anyone who's watched both of them can see the huge difference between them.

If that's the case then why does GT get as much attention as Z and Super ? When was the last time DB got a card release in Heroes ? or had character in a console video game ?

Why isn't there any DB characters in the video games if it's just fans ignoaring it ? Why didn't it get a Kai release if it's just fans ignoaring it ?

Really? The ENTIRE staff? I will admit I don't know much about the animation production of the original but I find it hard to believe they scrapped everybody and started fresh. I'm going to have to ask for more evidence than just "It's clearly different". Because I don't see that they are. As I've said the series doesn't suddenly become different. It's isn't instant.

Sintzu's speaking complete nonsense. As far as I know, the entire staff from Dragon Ball continued on to Z, as if nothing changed. In fact, most of the radical turnovers occurred halfway through Z, like Yamamuro taking over Maeda's role as chief animator, Studio Cockpit being brought in to animate and Shida leaving Last House. This isn't even huge "insider" info, it's all clear just by looking at the site's animation styles guide.

It's also hilarious that Kunzait's screenshot comparisons were both from Studio Junio artists supervised by Minoru Maeda, which wouldn't be the case if "the entire staff was replaced".

[ABED]

I'm just saying his writing style changes from DB to Z.

It changes throughout DB.

Have you ever actually watched DB all the way through?

Being simple doesn't mean it works as a standalone series. DBZ is simply uncomplicated.

[Deathbringer]

I'll never understand how people can start with DBZ because if how it doesn't give most of the characters a fresh introduction and assumes (rightly so) that if you're watching the show you should know who all the characters are.

However one thing I have realised is that if you look at Gohan you'll see he also knows nothing about the other characters and he gets introduced to them slowly, if you take Gohan as a secondary protagonist (especially as one that kids can relate to) then it makes a bit more sense. This also explains why so much of the fanbase really really likes him because of things like his training arc with Piccolo and his struggle to be a great fighter, at times it feels like he's the main character. No wonder they wanted to call it "Gohan's Big Adventure".

[sintzu]

Sintzu's speaking complete nonsense.

Did you even read the link I posted ? Torishima (Toriyama's 1st editor) said DB's anime wasn't very popular while Saibt Seiya was so he asked if the staff from that show would work on DB and they agreed and also said they should change the name to get more money and promotion. Maybe not the whole staff from A-Z was changed but the main ones like the producers were.

Have you ever actually watched DB all the way through?

Being simple doesn't mean it works as a standalone series.

Multiple times.

Then how do most people watch it alone and have nothing wrong with doing so ? you can't tell me that millions of people are wrong while you're right. Of course it's better to watch DB first cause you get more out of the story but it isn't wrong to watch Z on its own either.

[ABED]

Multiple times.

Then how do most people watch it alone and have nothing wrong with doing so ? you can't tell me that millions of people are wrong while you're right. Of course it's better to watch DB first cause you get more out of the story but it isn't wrong to watch Z on its own either.

It doesn't work as a standalone series because it doesn't fit the definition of a stand alone series. You can jump in at any point in the series and quickly get caught up because the plot isn't that complicated.

If you've watched it so many times then I'm flabbergasted by much of what you write. You should know that most of the things DBZ is know for started in DB. You make it seem like DB is all one thing and DBZ is another when you should know that's flat out untrue. DB changes a lot over time, just like DBZ changes.

[sintzu]

You should know that most of the things DBZ is know for started in DB. You make it seem like DB is all one thing and DBZ is another.

I'm saying both work as stand-alone series, both work as one series and both work if you watch z first then go back and watch db.

The best option is to watch DB then Z (or Kai) but that doesn't mean you can't watch Z then go back to DB or just watch one of them and call it a day.

[ABED]

But that's not what a stand alone series is. The simplicity of the story doesn't mean it stands alone. The progression of the story and the characters is heavily influenced by what came before. It's not like Frasier is to Cheers.

[sintzu]

But that's not what a stand alone series is. The simplicity of the story doesn't mean it stands alone.

If you can watch something without having to watch what came before it (again, you should) then I think that's what a standalone story is.

I look at DB the same way, you don't have to watch Z or anything else to enjoy it as its own thing.

[JulieYBM]

I don't know how anyone can call Dragon Ball Z a 'modern' looking series. It clearly looks like a product of its time on both a key animation level and a coloring level. Hell, it wasn't even all that well animated in comparison to its peers at the time, like Yuu Yuu Hakusho with its numerous Shinbou Akiyuki and Wayakabayashi Atsushi led episodes or the Matsumoto Norio-heavy episodes of Rurouni Kenshin. This is to say nothing of series like Ninku, either.

I'm always stricken by the background art and background animation in Dragon Ball Z, which was re-used in a lot of Toonami promos. Those look incredibly 1980s, as opposed to a lot more modern anime shying away from background animation to keep the visuals looking 'detailed' or realistic. Shingeki no Kyojin is totally guilty of that.

[LuckyCat]

Whether or not Toriyama intended for DBZ to be a standalone series (of course he didn't), there is a marked change in tone in the story from the chapter Raditz arrives. Blood and death become more common and only the very strongest fighters participate in the series. There's also fewer kid-friendly aesops compared to Goku's child years. The change was so remarkable that Toei approached Toriyama and asked permission to rebrand the anime series. So, considering these factors, you could say DBZ is a standalone series depicting Goku's adult life.