Will Vegeta simply be humiliated again?

BWri · Post by **BWri** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:26 am

Beyond wrote:Vegeta fans are like 1st worlders complaining about not making millions a year. Tien fans are dying of starvation. Yamacha fans are getting robbed everyday. 18 fans don't even know what's going on. Piccolo fans are just waiting to be disappointed again.

This. 100% This. Nothing else even comes close. I'm a fan of Piccolo (favorite char), Tien (2nd fave), and Yamcha. I'm just hoping those secret characters in U6 are Namekians and Piccolo shows them what he's made of.

TheMikado · Post by **TheMikado** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:58 pm

BWri wrote:
Beyond wrote:Vegeta fans are like 1st worlders complaining about not making millions a year. Tien fans are dying of starvation. Yamacha fans are getting robbed everyday. 18 fans don't even know what's going on. Piccolo fans are just waiting to be disappointed again.
This. 100% This. Nothing else even comes close. I'm a fan of Piccolo (favorite char), Tien (2nd fave), and Yamcha. I'm just hoping those secret characters in U6 are Namekians and Piccolo shows them what he's made of.

I think context is lost on a lot of people who say this. Vegeta's primary role seems to be to show how powerful the main enemy is. I.E. he's always the one who does the best against them, but then gets put down like a stray dog just to show how awesome Goku is for overcoming it.

Ironically GT Vegeta explains his and our frustrations perfectly.

"How dare you! Leaving me behind, expecting me to sit back while you go back and fight! Like I'm some sort of weakling! I refuse to be a spectator! How did this happen? How did the gap between our powers get so big? - The first time I fought you were no match for me! I was superior in every respect. Even though I was stronger, some inexplicable force seemed to be guiding you. You were taking huge gambles with your energy and they were paying off. I couldn't take it anymore! Live or die, I was willing to do anything to destroy you!

(Saiyan fight Montage) You let me go, I couldn't believe it. I thought it was the act of a sentimental fool. But later I realized being spared by you was worse than dying, Kakarot, because now I couldn't get you out of my mind! I had to live with you every second of the day! That one act challenged everything I'd ever believed in, everything that I'd ever known! You were unraveling my reality from the inside out!

(Frieza fight Montage) I begged you to forget about your feelings! I thought they would get you killed. But it was your feelings that helped you transform! It was the rage you felt when Frieza hurt your loved ones that pushed you over the top! And now you're making light of me again, aren't you?! How dare you! ..break .. I changed because of you Kakarot. You showed me that ruthlessness wasn't the key to acquiring power. I tried to be good like you, but the Saiyan in me would not die! I wanted my old edge back, my killer instinct!

(Inserted Majin Vegeta montage speech within montage - "Tell me! Tell me what has more meaning than your own strength! I have the blood of a Saiyan Prince in me! He is nothing but a joke! Yet I had to watch him surpass me in strength! My destiny thrown to the wayside! He's, even saved my life as though I were a helpless child! He has stolen my honor... ... and I want it back!
Goku - But we're still completely even. I guess this whole time you've been pushing yourself even harder than I have! Vegeta- That may be true. I've pushed myself to the edge of my limits and beyond. But you were born with a natural talent far beyond my own. No amount of training could have closed the gap between us. I realize that now. I was made painfully obvious to me today as I watched your fight with Babidi's monster! I final grasped the undeniable truth that no matter how hard I tried, I would never be able to catch you! That I was destined to live forever in the shadow of a low level clown! -More majin speech)

Goku ask in Montage " Do you really believe what you're saying?) Vegeta out of montage -
I thought I believed. Yes. But you were right, Kakarot. (Buu Montage) Suddenly I was up against insurmountable odds! Death was imminent but I didn't care about myself. I could only think of my son. I decided to shed my mortal coil in an attack that would rid the Earth of the monster for good, so that my son could live on. But even my sacrifice failed! And, once again, it was you who had to come to the rescue! And as a Super Saiyan 3 no less! A level that I didn't even dream was possible! The greatest battle that was ever waged was taking place...... and I was reduced to being its witness! Is that my lot in life? To bear witness to your strength? To be the only one strong enough to be able to fathom the depth of your might? I refuse to play that role!

Even Vegeta in-universe is seeming to acknowledge the out of universe intent for his character and even he is frustrated by it. He even acknowledge that Goku seems to be guided by a strange force, its what we would call out of universe "PLOT ARMOR". This is also why GT Vegeta is my favorite Vegeta. His internal reflection of his life and internal character analysis is top notch! Its even more ironic that GT Vegeta has better grasp of his internal character analysis that fans watching this as the audience.

GodKaio-Ken · Post by **GodKaio-Ken** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:18 pm

BWri wrote:
Beyond wrote:Vegeta fans are like 1st worlders complaining about not making millions a year. Tien fans are dying of starvation. Yamacha fans are getting robbed everyday. 18 fans don't even know what's going on. Piccolo fans are just waiting to be disappointed again.
This. 100% This. Nothing else even comes close. I'm a fan of Piccolo (favorite char), Tien (2nd fave), and Yamcha. I'm just hoping those secret characters in U6 are Namekians and Piccolo shows them what he's made of.

Goten is my second favorite character. At least Tien and Yamcha have a past lol

Akyon · Post by **Akyon** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:21 pm

GodKaio-Ken wrote:
BWri wrote:
Beyond wrote:Vegeta fans are like 1st worlders complaining about not making millions a year. Tien fans are dying of starvation. Yamacha fans are getting robbed everyday. 18 fans don't even know what's going on. Piccolo fans are just waiting to be disappointed again.
This. 100% This. Nothing else even comes close. I'm a fan of Piccolo (favorite char), Tien (2nd fave), and Yamcha. I'm just hoping those secret characters in U6 are Namekians and Piccolo shows them what he's made of.
Goten is my second favorite character. At least Tien and Yamcha have a past lol

Not to sound facetious, but I'm always curious why people like Goten. As you say he doesn't have the past of the older Z fighters, we don't really get to see him grow up like Gohan got focus in Z, he doesn't appear in the future timeline like Trunks to add to his appeal and he doesn't get much focus at all for being the son of the main character. Genuinely curious what elevates Goten ahead of every character bar one for you.

On topic: Honestly I'd be happy if both Goku and Vegeta got destroyed this arc to teach them both a vital lesson in teamwork(something Whis has tried driving home a few times now), but we all know Goku can't lose since he appears to have unlocked a new form and a new rival in Jiren in the opening.
With only two characters seemingly refusing to even entertain the idea of working alongside their team, Vegeta and Frieza, it seems one of them are bound to be setting up for a fall, with the narrative pointing squarely at Vegeta being the most likely candidate.
Frieza has a betrayal plan ready which will add additional tension...Vegeta doing well doesn't really aid the narrative; it means teamwork(the lesson of this arc seemingly) is bullshit and he's not got his own subplot unlike Frieza. Plus considering he's one of the strongest, he's smelling of the Worf effect as we speak. I think he probably will do well against Brianne, but I'm expecting either Golden Frieza(and Frost, he probably wants revenge), Jiren, or a team up of Brianne and her team mates to overcome him.

KingKaash · Post by **KingKaash** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:27 pm

HeroR wrote:
KingKaash wrote:
I can't agree with that. Toriyama said awhile ago that he had no plans for Goku or Vegeta to come close to Beerus. To me, Beerus is on a completely different stratosphere. Frieza, however, has been shown to really rival Goku recently.

That isn't what he said. He said he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpassed Beerus at that moment and he said that over a year ago. Beerus is Goku's rival and the one he truly wants to surpassed. Everyone else are just stepping stones towards that goal.

Are we really going to argue this again? Goku isn't even the strongest character in this tournament so how is Beerus his rival? And if Goku does surpass Beerus then who will he shoot for next? Whis? Omni-King? Beerus is far down the line to surpass so he can't be consider an immediate rival of Goku. People like Vegeta and Frieza who are more closer to his power level are better suited as his rival.

Also Beerus hasn't even addressed Goku as a rival since BoG. Frieza and Goku, however, just displayed a major rivalry vibe in episode 95

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:03 am

KingKaash wrote: Are we really going to argue this again? Goku isn't even the strongest character in this tournament so how is Beerus his rival? And if Goku does surpass Beerus then who will he shoot for next? Whis? Omni-King? Beerus is far down the line to surpass so he can't be consider an immediate rival of Goku. People like Vegeta and Frieza who are more closer to his power level are better suited as his rival.

Also Beerus hasn't even addressed Goku as a rival since BoG. Frieza and Goku, however, just displayed a major rivalry vibe in episode 95

Yes we are since we don't know if Goku is or isn't the strongest character at the tournament. You're just making an assumption. Goku sees Beerus ad his rival. It's the reason why he even bothered to try to merged the Kaioken with his god form, all to fight Beerus again and surpassed him. You're also making another assumption about where Goku stands next to Beerus. Vegeta and Freeze are not in the same league as Goku since Goku has the Kaioken and can now double his power with recoil. We also know when Goku surpassed Beerus, yes he will aimed for Whis and Zen'o. That is how Goku is, he wants to be the strongest, so his scope isn't just limited to Beerus.

Freeza's rivalry with Goku's is like Vegeta's. Namely, it's one-sided.

Potanical Pardon · Post by **Potanical Pardon** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:40 am

Vegeta's my favorite, but I'm completely fine with him being humiliated over and over. If he wasn't, then there wouldn't be something for him to overcome and be no point to his character's significance any more. I like the cat and mouse back and forth between he and Goku, even if Vegeta's superiority only lasts like a moment.

All of it is fine with me because no other character benefits as much as him as far as character development.

MyNiggaGoku · Post by **MyNiggaGoku** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:58 am

I think that the main purpose of Vegeta in this tournament will be to fight Kale and showcase her true potential.

GodKaio-Ken · Post by **GodKaio-Ken** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:34 am

Akyon wrote:
GodKaio-Ken wrote:
BWri wrote: This. 100% This. Nothing else even comes close. I'm a fan of Piccolo (favorite char), Tien (2nd fave), and Yamcha. I'm just hoping those secret characters in U6 are Namekians and Piccolo shows them what he's made of.
Goten is my second favorite character. At least Tien and Yamcha have a past lol
Not to sound facetious, but I'm always curious why people like Goten. As you say he doesn't have the past of the older Z fighters, we don't really get to see him grow up like Gohan got focus in Z, he doesn't appear in the future timeline like Trunks to add to his appeal and he doesn't get much focus at all for being the son of the main character. Genuinely curious what elevates Goten ahead of every character bar one for you.

On topic: Honestly I'd be happy if both Goku and Vegeta got destroyed this arc to teach them both a vital lesson in teamwork(something Whis has tried driving home a few times now), but we all know Goku can't lose since he appears to have unlocked a new form and a new rival in Jiren in the opening.
With only two characters seemingly refusing to even entertain the idea of working alongside their team, Vegeta and Frieza, it seems one of them are bound to be setting up for a fall, with the narrative pointing squarely at Vegeta being the most likely candidate.
Frieza has a betrayal plan ready which will add additional tension...Vegeta doing well doesn't really aid the narrative; it means teamwork(the lesson of this arc seemingly) is bullshit and he's not got his own subplot unlike Frieza. Plus considering he's one of the strongest, he's smelling of the Worf effect as we speak. I think he probably will do well against Brianne, but I'm expecting either Golden Frieza(and Frost, he probably wants revenge), Jiren, or a team up of Brianne and her team mates to overcome him.

Not to go off topic but to answer your question:

I hated Kid Gohan. When Goten was born I felt like "Yes...this is the son Goku should have"

Then in the Buu Arc it also looked like they were setting both kids up for the future...so I started in the Buu Arc and it just continued.

Jigurashi · Post by **Jigurashi** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:11 am

I can see why and agree that Vegeta just being a jobber in this series is repepltitivs, but if he's getting good moments in the sagas, I don't see how that's humiliating, unless it's more so a problem that he isn't the hero of the saga.

Kishido · Post by **Kishido** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:22 pm

When he sees Goku and his new form he should be humiliated.

Using RoSaT twice (Black arc and now) and he gains shit again

Ki Breaker · Post by **Ki Breaker** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:26 pm

Kishido wrote:When he sees Goku and his new form he should be humiliated.

Using RoSaT twice (Black arc and now) and he gains shit again

Jokes on you, he is eliminated before he gets to see goku transform

sintzu · Post by **sintzu** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:02 pm

Lionel wrote:Vegeta's about "yea high" on my list of characters whom I want to see eliminated right out of the starting gate with Goku not far behind him.

This has been a Goku arc from the start and will continue to be one till the end so that's not going to happen. In terms of Vegeta, he'll either be the 8th or 9th fighter getting eliminated so he's also in for the long run. I just hope he does better than he did in the Black arc (which wasn't bad but I've been spoiled by the manga).

Potanical Pardon · Post by **Potanical Pardon** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:36 pm

He'll do what he always does with every Big Bad, even if he dies prematurely. He will have a role in the last moment before the villain is defeated to tip the scales so that whoever gets to be hero can be the hero.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:43 pm

Kishido wrote:When he sees Goku and his new form he should be humiliated.

Using RoSaT twice (Black arc and now) and he gains shit again

Vegeta became worthless shit tier the second Goku could stack KK on top of Blue, with no equivalent of his own, Vegeta is by default a total non-equal to Goku. It's so obvious I'm surprised by how little he seems to care about this fact.

Potanical Pardon · Post by **Potanical Pardon** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:55 pm

That's fine. He didn't seem to care for whatever it was 7 or 10 years after Gohan hit SSJ2. He just wanted to fight Goku again. And when Goku revealed SSJ3, he was peeved but not super annoyed - just confident he could still surpass Goku again. At best he's gotten annoyed, but he's shown with SSJ3, SSJGod, Trunks' SSJRage, and again with Gohan re-achieving Ultimate form, that he's both proud of their achievements and motivated to improve himself again.

What he won't do is Kaioken just like he wouldn't go for SSJ3 because of the limitations to those he doesn't like. Maybe he has PTSD from all those times he had Krillin unleash on him so that he could get those Zenkai boosts and really, really doesn't like the risk of similar happening with learning and using the Kaioken technique. He's shown that even if it takes longer, he prefers the longer method to achieve progress. Although, an argument can also be made that he has shown equal moments of doing the shortcuts - Zenkai, SSJGod ritual turn, Majin SSJ2. I guess both he and Goku are hypocrites here. They both say that they don't like not earning their ascensions, but hedge their bets and only say those things after they've done it. Goku was all about Elder Kai unlocking his potential when it came up right before the ToP, even though he was all above that sort of thing when he had the SSJ God ritual done.

amuroray · Post by **amuroray** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:19 pm

IMO he should be humiliated again as thats his only purpose in the show.

What else could he do? His plot line really finished when freeza killed him on namek. He has just overstayed his welcome.

He should just be the guy that makes the new villain seems stronger.

Simere · Post by **Simere** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:20 pm

Torturephile wrote:He'll get humiliated by Caulifla, Freeza, Frost, Hit, Brianne de Chateau, Kale, and even Cell coming out of nowhere, all at the same time and kicking him in the dick. Then they toss him aside and resume the tournament fight. He hangs by the edge of the stage and accidentally looks at Ayy LMAO, ultimately geting the halo Freeza promised him.

That hanging off the edge of the stage idea is a good one. I hope to see it happen.

Artorias · Post by **Artorias** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:44 pm

Here's what I'd LIKE to happen. How about instead of just having Vegeta get absolutely demolished and embarrassed, they have him actually put up a good fight against Jiren or whoever. I don't know why he always has to get totally decimated every time. You would accomplish the same effect by just having him put up a decent fight, but ultimately still lose after a hard fought battle. Then he essentially admits "It's up to you now Kakarot" and the fight just continues from there with Goku taking his place. Change it up a bit for once.

Artorias · Post by **Artorias** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:11 pm

Chuquita wrote:Freeza's really upstaging everybody, and I'm torn because it's bad to see everyone else pushed aside for Freeza, but they're writing him so well.

That what I've been saying too. They've almost done his return TOO well, to the point where he's overshadowing everyone else.

Kanzenshuu

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