What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

[ryan s]

your continued insults only show how poorly you deal with loss and how hypocritical you are

you can't find something on google that does not exist. piccolo never stated that again you just make things up. "use the same power you used against buu" meaning his mystic state not literally the same level of power.....

i could say the same thing with SSB Goku vs krillin and SSJ Goku vs krillin and it is also stated by krillin many times that Goku has a habit during a sparing match to turn into a SSJ and when krillin tells Goku not to transform he moans therefore this is clearly a thing Goku does and once again i have to debunk you using evidence from the show.

this is just one of the few times and the end of episode 76 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHBkLCrtrec

i don't have to disprove that because the theory could not work with Vegeta being that strong

Vegeta (no god ki) > beyond god = SSG

love how you say i am making all these errors yet fail to point them out you're a joke and FYI you started with the insults

[LowRyder2005]

1. I'm not insulting, nor did I ever insult you. No idea on why you'd start claiming I did.

2. Piccolo said Gohan wasn't using "the power he used against Buu" during all of their fight within ep. 95; this happens right before Gohan turns Ultimate. Piccolo also says that Gohan can't evoke his "original strength" when he squares off against SS2 Gohan and in the beginning of the episode Goku says that Gohan, at the tournament, fought worse than what he remembered (the clear, implied comparison being almost certainly his fight aganst Super Buu, since Gohan has only been getting stronger since the majority of Super). If anything, the only insulting thing here is arguing that I'm purposefully lying to you for whatever reason.
If Piccolo's ever-slightly-ambiguous translation term lead you to think that Piccolo's arguing for Gohan's appearance or form, bear in mind that "chikara" pretty much universally refers to strength, not "abilities" or "form". By the way, you also have the official episode's synopsis stating that Gohan trains with Piccolo in order to regain his "lost strength" -- which again doesn't make much sense, if not any sense at all, if Gohan's is much stronger than a Super Saiyan God by virtue of forcing base Goku to transform.
Do also note that, like I said many times now, most of your reasoning also rests on Goku's keeping "Super Saiyan God's chikara", which is again strength.

i could say the same thing with SSB Goku vs krillin and SSJ Goku vs krillin and it is also stated by krillin many times that Goku has a habit during a sparing match to turn into a SSJ and when krillin tells Goku not to transform he moans therefore this is clearly a thing Goku does and once again i have to debunk you using evidence from the show.

So there could be errors, but the one thing which absolutely can't be an error is the premise of your reasoning ("SSG's strength = SS's strength being true all the time, which is also never stated)? Again, this only shows your bias and it's, frankly, an absolutely ridiculous, bizarre stance. I suggest you reflect on how you string together your "facts".

i don't have to disprove that because the theory could not work with Vegeta being that strong

Vegeta (no god ki) > beyond god = SSG

Not only is the last part wrong - since it would be "beyond God (ROF) < base Vegeta < SSG" according to you, but you again have virtually no argument to make.
Vegeta might have again increased his power in base, while Goku already had the "second base" by virtue of going through the ritual, which may sit between Super Saiyan 3 and Blue (or just God and Blue).

With that being said most of your arguments are entirely biased, some of your premises are arbitrary and it seems like you even ignore stuff that may be vital in proving this or that claim of yours -- which may as well be the root of your problem.

[Basako]

In the fight against Beerus Goku was shown in SS having the same power of his SSG. However, this new base level has been inconsistent, sometimes it looked really strong, other times it didn't. From there it was born this two base theory. But I think the explanation was off universe, since the Champa arc, when Toei writers started receiving new outlines, instead of just retelling the movies, they had to write Goku with lower base and SS levels again. So it was a mess, sometimes god level strong others not.

That part was retconed in the manga for a reason. Yes, Toyotaro writes it, but it's not like he works behind Toriyama. He at least approved this change, if not suggested it.

And, really, what was the point of having a SSG level second base? For that, wasn't it just better to have the SSG? Well, that's how I see it, it's cooler and less confusing.

I don't know how they are going to reintroduce SSG in the anime. Was it really ever stated that it was an only one time thing to achieve with the ritual? Maybe we just assumed it, with reasons, sure, but still an assumption. Or maybe they'll do the ritual again now, unlikely, but not impossible. We'll see.

Well, just gonna say that I'm glad SSG is back in the anime. Now waiting for Vegeta!

[ryan s]

i did check and Goku does say considering his original power he should have been able to do better but i don't see what relevance this has

you're not making sense, it is stated Goku has surpassed SSG as a SSJ (without god ki because he is not ssb) and yet you are saying that Goku wasn't comparing his full power to Vegeta's? that just doesn't make any sense

even when they are sparring beerus say they have gotten much stronger and that they should try and fight him and this is before they get sent to that place and they don't know SSG so clearly you have to be wrong

[LowRyder2005]

i did check and Goku does say considering his original power he should have been able to do better but i don't see what relevance this has

you're not making sense, it is stated Goku has surpassed SSG as a SSJ and yet you are saying that Goku wasn't comparing his full power to Vegeta's? that just doesn't make any sense

even when they are sparring beerus say they have gotten much stronger and that they should try and fight him and this is before they get sent to that place so clearly you have to be wrong

Try to organize your thoughts a little more organically, I'd rather not pick your post apart with quotes.

So did you find out the part when Piccolo says Gohan lacks the strength he had against Buu also?
Regarding Vegeta, as far as I recall, Goku did not state Vegeta had surpassed him, all in all, just that Vegeta was "unrecognizable" compared to what he remembered. Beerus' words may just be a very generous estimation, since it's not really stated he knows their full power. In fact, even if he did, it arguably is an overstatement already, since not even ten times Goku's strength as a SSB can beat him, which means SSB shouldn't really be a challenge at all, never mind Goku's base -- while Piccolo's description of Gohan is pretty much unambiguous no matter how you put it.

[ryan s]

please enough with your pompous attitude it's so hard to talk to someone so arrogant and no piccolo does not say that at all that is why i didn't bring it up, so all that shows is that Gohan could have done a lot better if he kept in shape which is shown in episode 90 when he fights ssb Goku

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybar0xuuPcQ

i will organize things as i feel comfortable ok? there is no objective standard into organizing things, i am not compelled to follow any set standard

on topic

he senses him and he says you may be even stronger than i am now so it is stated. he just saw them fighting all out and even if they were not going all out that only supports me that they are even stronger and so he knows their power and Beerus can sense when powers are greater as he could sense the power of base Goku and compared to SSJ3 Goku and ssj3 goku to vegeta

[LowRyder2005]

please enough with your pompous attitude it's so hard to talk to someone so arrogant

Pompous attitude. Oh, for fuck's sake.
Regarding Piccolo, you can find the quote at the beginning of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if7gmRknUn4, but there's also a handful synopsis that completely disproves the notion Gohan is stronger at that point than ever.

he senses him and he flat out says you may be even stronger than i am now so it is stated and therefore Vegeta has to be stronger than SSG
he senses him and he says you may be even stronger than i am now so it is stated. he just saw them fighting all out and even if they were not going all out that only supports me that they are even stronger and so he knows their power and Beerus can sense when powers are greater as he could sense the power of base Goku and compared to SSJ3 Goku and ssj3 goku to vegeta

So he uses "may" and "now", and what part of that makes it true base Vegeta has to be stronger than the Super Saiyan God not matter which form he used?
The minimum you can state off that is that Goku saw Vegeta's results and thought he got much stronger. Anything more than that is your impression and not much else.

Also - if I'm not being too much of a party-pooper, that is - may I humbly inform you this post (or your posts in general) appear almost totally unintelligible to me, since you barely use punctuation to begin with? Much appreciated.

[VegettoEX]

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[Lord Beerus]

A cool thought just came to my head.

When Vegeta turns into a SSJB in Episode 27, Goku comments that unlike himself who need the power of other Saiyans to obtain the power of Super Saiyan God, Vegeta did it on his own with his own power. That would imply Vegeta, at some point after Goku joined him to train with Whis, simply brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God. It would actually work in a thematic sense given Vegeta often brute forces his way to new levels of strength, despite the previously stated criteria need to achived that power in the first place. Like how he became a SSJ despite not have a pure heart.

[Marlowe89]

this literally has no point to it so what? if Goku's base was SSG and he can get 400 x stronger than it blue still makes him way stronger and near a god of destructions level therefore they would be shocked

I think you misunderstood his point, if anything.

The phrase "Kami no Chikara" ("Power of the Gods" in English) was first used by Beerus to describe Super Saiyan God Goku's strength in the BoG arc. Recently, the exact same phrase was used only after Goku went Blue during the exhibition match; not at any point before.

That term isn't going to mean one thing and then suddenly mean something completely different later on in the narrative. That makes absolutely no sense.

[lord turbo]

The two base theory, no matter how others try to make it seem logical and fit has never made any sense from a narrative standpoint to me. From what I can gather some of y'all believe that there is base, SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, and then this base (Saiyan Beyond God or whatever) above that, and then SSJB (Or perhaps SSJG and then SSJB with the up-coming episode 104 bringing SSJG back). My issue is this, why the hell does Goku bother using SSJ 1-3 at all if he has this magical base form that stronger than all of them? People keep bringing up "Goku's got to conserve energy here and there which is why he transforms and goes back to base" but wouldn't the more logical and simpler solution be to stay in this SBG base everyone seems to think he has?

That base is just his base form at SSJG level according to some here so why not stay in that state at all times then? It drains zero stamina/energy since its his base form, turning SSJ1-3 over that is nonsensical and a waste of time which makes me wonder do some of the people that push the 2 base theory even acknowledge the nonsensical nature of such a theory to begin with.

[Almighty Majin]

The two base theory, no matter how others try to make it seem logical and fit had never made any sense from a narrative standpoint. From what I can gather people believe there is base, SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, and then this base (Saiyan Beyond God or whatever) above that, and then SSJB (Or perhaps SSJG and then SSJB with the up-coming episode 104 bringing SSJG back). My issue is this, why the hell does go bother using SSJ 1-3 at all if he has this magical base form that stronger than all of them? People keep bringing up "Goku's got to conserve energy here and there which is why he transforms and goes back to base" buy wouldn't the more logical and simpler solution be stay in this SBG base everyone seems to think he has?

That base is just his base form at SSJG level according to some here so why not stay in that state then? It drains zero stamina/energy since its his base form, turning SSJ1-3 over that is nonsensical and a waste of time which makes me wonder due some that push the 2 base theory even acknowledge the nonsensical narrative of such a theory to begin with

This is my problem with the theory along with the fact that something as important as this is not even remotely hinted at in the series at all.

[mikey4111]

I'm lost, how do we know SSG is back?

[LowRyder2005]

My issue is this, why the hell does go bother using SSJ 1-3 at all if he has this magical base form that stronger than all of them? People keep bringing up "Goku's got to conserve energy here and there which is why he transforms and goes back to base" buy wouldn't the more logical and simpler solution be stay in this SBG base everyone seems to think he has?

That base is just his base form at SSJG level according to some here so why not stay in that state then? It drains zero stamina/energy since its his base form, turning SSJ1-3 over that is nonsensical and a waste of time which makes me wonder due some that push the 2 base theory even acknowledge the nonsensical narrative of such a theory to begin with

This question would basically read the same as "why doesn't Goku fight smart": but does he ever? It's pretty much a character trait, if not a staple, that he will more often than not waste energy/time fighting the foe at a lower level to get more enjoyment out of the bout. Aside from maybe the current tournament, which still treats the concept of "saving power" somewhat inconsistently, it's hardly something I'd label as narrative-breaking. Goku neglecting to fight in what most would label as an "efficient" fashion isn't really unheard of.

Granted, though, the problems lie somewhere else in that the series hasn't ever acknowledged the "two bases" as such from an in-universe perspective. There's overwhelming evidence that the authors have, however, stopped treating most of the fighters (including the former "base Godku") who can hold their own with base Goku as "god-level" individuals. The one "stronger-than-SS3 Gotenks" base also creates much more pressing issues in regards to the narrative. In short, whether the idea that there are two bases with vastly varying levels of strength is true or not, everyone will likely - at bare minimum - be forced to acknowledge that some type of retcon took place.

I'm lost, how do we know SSG is back?

There was a stray synopsis floating around which mentioned the form; it got an official confirmation through the Twitter of one of the writers afterwards.

When Vegeta turns into a SSJB in Episode 27, Goku comments that unlike himself who need the power of other Saiyans to obtain the power of Super Saiyan God, Vegeta did it on his own with his own power. That would imply Vegeta, at some point after Goku joined him to train with Whis, simply brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God. It would actually work in a thematic sense given Vegeta often brute forces his way to new levels of strength, despite the previously stated criteria need to achived that power in the first place. Like how he became a SSJ despite not have a pure heart.

That's pretty important evidence -- which, personally, I had completely forgotten about. It proves that there are ways other than the ritual to obtain the power of a Super Saiyan God, or whatever requirement for Blue that is.

[Asura]

It's just like Hayao Miyazaki said, Super Saiyan God was a mistake.

[Almighty Majin]

The thing is that while Goku and Vegeta's base power increased massively, the writers still kept the power scale the same or close to it. This would mean that unless explicitly stated within the plot, the humans will stay relative to the base Saiyans and also explains why Future Trunks was still considered equal to Goku and Vegeta in corresponding forms.

[lord turbo]

This question would basically read the same as "why doesn't Goku fight smart": but does he ever? It's pretty much a character trait, if not a staple, that he will more often than not waste energy/time fighting the foe at a lower level to get more enjoyment out of the bout. Aside from maybe the current tournament, which still treats the concept of "saving power" somewhat inconsistently, it's hardly something I'd label as narrative-breaking. Goku neglecting to fight in what most would label as an "efficient" fashion isn't really unheard of.

Not quite, Goku fights exactly the same no matter what form he's in so it has nothing to do with smarts, my question is why does Goku bother wasting time with SSJ1-3 at all when this SBG base is far superior with zero drawbacks. Goku can lower and raise his power to mimic any level of strength he wants in his base form so why transforming SSJ1-3 if he has this sbg that does the exact same thing? Narrative speaking it makes zero sense since there's nothing in the story to state, imply, or even suggest this even exists for not only Goku, but Vegeta as well. Head canon isn't proof of anything and shouldn't be used as such either. The more logical and consistent effects (Regardless of prior inconsistencies with this suppose two-base theory) is that we have base, SSJ1-3, SSJG, and SSJB.

Goku or Vegeta accessing any of these forms during battle is a shorthand reference for the audience to let us know what level of power they and their opponents are up against, the same simple formula Toriyama has always been using since the inception of the series. The only way 2 base theory makes sense is if it was actually acknowledged in-universe of the series itself. Basically, Goku's using base, then switches to SSJ, then SSJ2 or SSJ3, and then back to base with the character he's fighting asking how did he become stronger than his last transformation if he went back to his weakest original normal form? Goku chimes in and states he's using god ki/SBG/SSJG within his base form to boost it to levels superior to his SSJ1-3.

However, you run into the issue why can't he use god ki/SBG/SSJG power to boost his SSJ1-3 forms as well which would by default make them stronger than his sbg base and make his transformations SBG SSJ1-3 thus back to square 1 to begin with. No matter what theory you use you run into the same paradox/issue that makes it nonsensical within the context of the series itself.

So when you mention "This question would basically read the same as "why doesn't Goku fight smart": but does he ever?" is simply being evasive and doesn't really answer the question. Lets for simplicity sake say you was the case, then why does Goku transform to SSJ when he's getting his ass beat in his base form? If Goku doesn't fight smart wouldn't he simply stay in base until he gets KOed before he has a chance to even think about transforming to a higher level? However, since he does transform to a higher level the whole excuse of "When does Goku ever fight smart" doesn't work because the character himself acknowledges the level he's at is not good enough against the opponent he's facing. Case in point, when Goku is getting overwhelmed by Kale, he obviously goes to SSJB because SSJ2 is getting overwhelmed and isn't do jack shit to Kale.

Now, here's where the whole "Oh that Goku, he's just holding back/withholding his full power" excuse comes in, instead of going SSJB, why not go this Saiyan Beyond God base people claim that he has then? Transforming SSJB waste a lot of energy/stamina which is why Goku's been holding off on using it right, that's the stated reason more than once right? Why not use SBG base then since Goku (According to some had no intention of using any decent amount of power from SSJB), its a good deal above SSJ3 and waste zero energy/stamina while SSJB waste a significant amount of energy/stamina. Could it be that, perhaps, SBG base never actually existed at all which is why he doesn't use it? With the return of SSJG itself that seems to be the case since folks beforehand where like "SBG is a Saiyan using the power of SSJG in their base form)

Speaking of SBG, what about the whole thing with BoGs way back at the start of Super. Goku's SSJ > or = SSJG so technically wouldn't that make Goku SSBG (Super Saiyan Beyond God) since he's using the power of SSJG in his SSJ form just like SBG uses the power of SSJG in base form, that seems to just open another can of worms so to me it seems the simpler solution is base, SSJ1-3, SSJG, SSJB, and SSJB+KK2-10, none of that SBG or SSBG stuff.

[LowRyder2005]

Not quite, Goku fights exactly the same no matter what form he's in so it has nothing to do with smarts, my question is why does Goku bother wasting time with SSJ1-3 at all when this SBG base is far superior with zero drawbacks. Goku can lower and raise his power to mimic any level of strength he wants in his base form so why transforming SSJ1-3 if he has this sbg that does the exact same thing? Narrative speaking it makes zero sense since there's nothing in the story to state, imply, or even suggest this even exists for not only Goku, but Vegeta as well. Head canon isn't proof of anything and shouldn't be used as such either. The more logical and consistent effects (Regardless of prior inconsistencies with this suppose two-base theory) is that we have base, SSJ1-3, SSJG, and SSJB.

It's obvious the narrative isn't necessarily gonna flow if you already make assumptions about how the form is supposed to work. The only thing we know about it, strictly speaking, is that it's supposed to be around the strength of Freeza's final form in ROF. I could turn the question around just as easily: what makes you think he can? If you're treating SBG as its own thing you're already assuming it's different from his base form and/or the other forms altogether, aren't you?

However, you run into the issue why can't he use god ki/SBG/SSJG power to boost his SSJ1-3 forms as well which would by default make them stronger than his sbg base and make his transformations SBG SSJ1-3 thus back to square 1 to begin with. No matter what theory you use you run into the same paradox/issue that makes it nonsensical within the context of the series itself.

The answer is more or less the same: if we assume Goku is not acting irrationally (which to avoid misunderstandings isn't the same as "inefficiently", e.n.), he wouldn't because it's not like he can't by default. Your argument is like asking "why wouldn't Gohan go Super Saiyan on top of his Ultimate form in the Buu arc, and does it break the narrative?". Gohan never did when it would have helped him, there's no reason to assume he could.

So when you mention "This question would basically read the same as "why doesn't Goku fight smart": but does he ever?" is simply being evasive and doesn't really answer the question. Lets for simplicity sake say you was the case, then why does Goku transform to SSJ when he's getting his ass beat in his base form? If Goku doesn't fight smart wouldn't he simply stay in base until he gets KOed before he has a chance to even think about transforming to a higher level? However, since he does transform to a higher level the whole excuse of "When does Goku ever fight smart" doesn't work because the character himself acknowledges the level he's at is not good enough against the opponent he's facing. Case in point, when Goku is getting overwhelmed by Kale, he obviously goes to SSJB because SSJ2 is getting overwhelmed and isn't do jack shit to Kale.

I argued that Goku doesn't always fight smart as long as it makes everything more enjoyable, hence he'll gladly handicap himself directly or indirectly (category under which may just fall his act of not resorting to a super-powered base -- nothing much different than not using SSB to clear the house in a short period of time), not that he's a completely clueless fighter that won't transform even when he's on the brink of defeat.

Speaking of SBG, what about the whole thing with BoGs way back at the start of Super. Goku's SSJ > or = SSJG so technically wouldn't that make Goku SSBG (Super Saiyan Beyond God) since he's using the power of SSJG in his SSJ form just like SBG uses the power of SSJG in base form, that seems to just open another can of worms so to me it seems the simpler solution is base, SSJ1-3, SSJG, SSJB, and SSJB+KK2-10, none of that SBG or SSBG stuff.

"Saiyan Beyond God" actually comes from Dragon Ball Heroes, which uses the term to refer to the base form seen in ROF. In-game, it boosts Goku's power more than Goku going Super Saiyan does, and there's no "Super Saiyan Beyond God" or any combined state to speak of.
Regarding the simpler Super Saiyan forms, like I said it's abundantly clear they do not logically mesh with a streamlined approach in Super's post-U6 narrative unless you disregard Goku's base surpassing Gotenks or consider the hypothesis of retcons taking place -- which are, factually speaking, much bigger problems than justifying SBG as a different state than the regular base. You basically made an argument as to how the only way, but one could just as easily argue the series hardly makes sense without it.

Think about Fourth Form Freeza in particular, who'd be the only available "true" means of comparison. He isn't expressly said to be that much different from usual if not for possessing better control of his Golden form, and yet he's apparently wiping the floor with contestants like Napapa -- or people were portrayed as superior to base Caulifla, who's put by other statements and feats around the same tier of strength of base Goku himself. Super also tells you Super Saiyan increases the user's ki "some tens of times", which means Fourth Form Freeza would need to become dozens of times stronger than however strong he was portrayed against base Goku. And yet all that's stated in Super is that he got rid of his stamina for his Golden form through meditation; no one mentions fourth form Freeza being stronger than usual at all.

In general terms, though, ignoring those nitpicks here and there, I'm realizing that the entire contention rests on the assumption that Saiyan Beyond God uses the same stamina of Goku's base form. Since it's not really said anywhere that Beyond God doesn't waste more stamina than that, the burden of proof is basically on you more than me. I mean, his supposed "Beyond God" form could simply consume more stamina than Goku's current Super Saiyan 3 -- with Goku using it on Freeza being justified by the fact his SS3 was not enough, and I think it would pretty much satisfy your queries, unless I misunderstood something.

[Marlowe89]

I've sort of abandoned the mainstream version of the two base theory myself, i.e. that Goku has a God-powered base and a regular base that he can switch between at will. With the reintroduction of Super Saiyan God into the narrative, I just don't personally feel that there's any logical need to suppose it exists in Super's official continuity. For me, it's somewhat a matter of principle and somewhat a matter of authorial intent; if the writers didn't intend it, I'm not going to follow it.

That being said, I still believe that base Goku was obviously intended to be just as strong as Super Saiyan God at one point in the series, particularly during the RoF arc. There are countless instances and supplementary materials that confirm this to be true for the film, and there's no reason to believe the writers approached this differently for Super -- especially since Goku described Blue to be the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, the underlined phrase being the key words in this situation. I'm not sure what they were going for during the U6 Tournament (perhaps they weren't entirely certain themselves seeing as the old Super Saiyan forms returned) but whatever occurred in the Copy Vegeta arc was either a continuation of that idea or an outlier altogether.

With base Goku now being portrayed to struggle with characters around Basil's level, being weaker than 18 in strength and fighting equally against a pre-Ultimate Gohan on a form-by-form basis with the dialogue implying he wasn't holding back much, I think it's all too clear that the writers are now attempting to be a lot more consistent with the manga's power scale. It's only natural that something like this would occur; there was implied to be increased communication between Toei and Toyotaro as recently as the Goku Black arc, not to mention the Dragon Ball Room initiative being announced to optimize content for the series as well as Toshio insinuating that Toei's writers normally try to adapt their perspective of power levels from the explicit views of Toriyama who also works closely with Toyotaro.

So if anything, I'm more inclined to subscribe to a version of the theory that would consist of "a super strong base, then a much weaker base overwriting the first", which seems rather consistent with the evidence presented thus far. In simpler terms, I'm pretty sure there was a quiet (but elaborate) retcon at some point.

[lord turbo]

It's obvious the narrative isn't necessarily gonna flow if you already make assumptions about how the form is supposed to work. The only thing we know about it, strictly speaking, is that it's supposed to be around the strength of Freeza's final form in ROF. I could turn the question around just as easily: what makes you think he can? If you're treating SBG as its own thing you're already assuming it's different from his base form and/or the other forms altogether, aren't you?

Isn't sbg just a term from dbh that people use to describe Goku and be default Vegeta's base form during RoF being SSJG, but its not actually a separate form altogether. In that case why would Goku not be able to alter his power level at will in his base form then or is it something else where people pretend Goku and Vegeta can turn on and off god ki like a switch for their non-god forms?

The answer is more or less the same: if we assume Goku is not acting irrationally (which to avoid misunderstandings isn't the same as "inefficiently", e.n.), he wouldn't because it's not like he can't by default. Your argument is like asking "why wouldn't Gohan go Super Saiyan on top of his Ultimate form in the Buu arc, and does it break the narrative?". Gohan never did when it would have helped him, there's no reason to assume he could.

Actually, I would assume he can't since he does no such to indicate that he can or that its possible to stack SSJ on top of his Ultimate form in the Buu arc and if he could that wiuld break the narrative as he would habe to explai. Why he didn't against someone less than 2x his own level when SSJ multiplies several times higher than that, but like I said before the narrative shows he can't and instead its treated as a transformation that sits above SSJ2, basically his version of SSJ3.

I argued that Goku doesn't always fight smart as long as it makes everything more enjoyable, hence he'll gladly handicap himself directly or indirectly (category under which may just fall his act of not resorting to a super-powered base -- nothing much different than not using SSB to clear the house in a short period of time), not that he's a completely clueless fighter that won't transform even when he's on the brink of defeat.

Could you actually give some examples and the context behind it that shows what you are suggesting and include Vegeta as well since he's in the same boat as Goku.

"Saiyan Beyond God" actually comes from Dragon Ball Heroes, which uses the term to refer to the base form seen in ROF.

I see, so it has nothing to do with the series itself just people using that as a fanterm for Goku/Vegeta's base form during the RoF saga.

In-game, it boosts Goku's power more than Goku going Super Saiyan does, and there's no "Super Saiyan Beyond God" or any combined state to speak of.

Not that dbh has any bearing on canon, but I'm curious, do they ever explain why it boosts Goku's base over his SSJ form?

Regarding the simpler Super Saiyan forms, like I said it's abundantly clear they do not logically mesh with a streamlined approach in Super's post-U6 narrative unless you disregard Goku's base surpassing Gotenks or consider the hypothesis of retcons taking place -- which are, factually speaking, much bigger problems than justifying SBG as a different state than the regular base.

Whether one assumes retcons or inconsistencies took place there's still doesn't disregard the simple fact there is a change in the narrative. Well, dbs anime anyway, the manga has no such issue when it comes to this suppose 2 base theory.

Think about Fourth Form Freeza in particular, who'd be the only available "true" means of comparison. He isn't expressly said to be that much different from usual if not for possessing better control of his Golden form, and yet he's apparently wiping the floor with contestants like Napapa -- or people were portrayed as superior to base Caulifla, who's put by other statements and feats around the same tier of strength of base Goku himself.

I believe Freeza is outright stated to have gotten stronger due to his mental training in hell in conjunction with his perfect energy control skills.

Super also tells you Super Saiyan increases the user's ki "some tens of times", which means Fourth Form Freeza would need to become dozens of times stronger than however strong he was portrayed against base Goku. And yet all that's stated in Super is that he got rid of his stamina for his Golden form through meditation; no one mentions fourth form Freeza being stronger than usual at all.

One can assume Freeza works like the saiyans transformations, any increase in any of his forms applies evenly across all other forms since its the same body or make another theory on that, in any case, Freeza is easily handling characters that can give trouble to saiyans using their SSJ form would suggest base (final/true) form Freeza is simply far stronger than any of the base saiyans so far, that or another one of dbs' staff of "I don't give a shit" attitude when writing down certain scenes and interactions between characters since the anime is being writing by multiple different writers meaning some have varying ideas of how strong and weak the characters are which greatly affects how we percieve them in general.

Basically, base Freeza can be stronger than a opponent that drew even with SSJ2 Goku, but then also struggled against an opponent thay drew even with base Goku and no one in the series would comment on this.

In general terms, though, ignoring those nitpicks here and there, I'm realizing that the entire contention rests on the assumption that Saiyan Beyond God uses the same stamina of Goku's base form. Since it's not really said anywhere that Beyond God doesn't waste more stamina than that, the burden of proof is basically on you more than me. I mean, his supposed "Beyond God" form could simply consume more stamina than Goku's current Super Saiyan 3 -- with Goku using it on Freeza being justified by the fact his SS3 was not enough, and I think it would pretty much satisfy your queries, unless I misunderstood something.

Isn't SBG just his base form at the same level or higher than SSJG and not actually a separate form? If so then why would that waste Goku's stamina. Now, if you're treating it as a separate form as in Goku is turning SSJG on and off like a switch in his base form then we need to clear up some things then.

What in the world is Goku's SSJ at the end of BoG then, Beeruz mentioned he fully merged SSJG itself into his being and made it his own when Goku questioned he hasn't gotten any weaker and is still at the same level despite losing the form itself. Since SSJ Goku = SSJG, did he lose this level considering his SSJ form from the end of BoGs and his base form from RoF are no where near that level post-RoF as shown by his base and SSJ identical in level to Gohan in his Saiyaman get up (Episode 75 I think, somewhere in the 70s since it takes place post Zamasu saga).

This same Gohan was shown stronger than the wolf brother he fought as a SSJ and his SSJ 1-2 forms are stated to be inferior in power to the level he had against Super Bui (Ultimate Gohan) during the Buu saga meaning Goku's base and SSJ 1-2 forms are also inferior to Ultimate Gohan as well. Goku and Vegeta's base are shown struggling Againdy the wolf brothers and having to turn SSJ and yet the wolf brothers are shown at time keeping pace with them so their SSJ is no stronger than Gohan's SSJ during the exhibition match which is inferior to his Ultimate form.

It appears Goku and Vegeta simply lost the level their base and SSJ forms were at during BoGs and RoF meaning Freeza has been retcon to a similar level then.