Why do people believe Broly hating Vegeta is a better plot?

[rereboy]

The lion analogy doesn't work at all.

I beg to differ. An animal comparison is the best example to explain a being mostly driven by instincts like Broly is.

Strength isn't the only means to kill in the animal kingdom.

The comparison I used is merely meant to better explain what it looks like to be driven by instinct and that that's actually something that exists. Obviously, Broly's instincts as an ultimate saiyan warrior aren't exactly the same as the instincts of a real life lion and, obviously, if you take the comparison far beyond the scope I was using it for you will find plenty of things that don't fit.

This whole thing is not making it any better. Why does Broly do what he does? Instinct and destiny. Why does he see Goku as a threat in spite of being SO much stronger than him? Because he just feel it. Goku ended up defeating him because he had allies.

Goku was either powerful enough to get Broly's saiyan instincts running (even if Broly was still more powerful), or Broly's instincts were sharp enough to recognize that Goku could be a threat eventually. Either one makes sense and fits with Broly's theme of the ultimate saiyan warrior driven by instinct. Of course, if we personally like that or prefer more intellectual motivations is a different issue.

When I think about it Broly doesn't look that angry in the first movie once he transforms... he can speak properly with Goku and everyone else and can be patient too (he let the Z fighters heal). I guess he just wanted to fight a strong opponent in the first movie and get his revenge in the second movie, where he becomes insane and says kakarot non-stop.

Exactly. There's a HUGE difference between Broly in both movies. To me it's clear that he doesn't actually hate any of his opponents in the first movie, even though he enjoys fighting and destroying his opponents. He just had his instincts awoken by Goku's power, and those instincts are fighting and destroying. However, in the second movie, with what Goku did to him, he basically becomes crazy.

[BrolyKale]

I think he might actually hate Vegeta, because when he charged at him Broly said "Hmph! I'm not going to let you die so easily!"

[ABED]

It's not an apt comparison in a world where strength is everything. Being the strongest in the wild doesn't mean you can't be killed by other means. In DB world, the only way to defeat someone like Broly is by overpowering him.

Either one makes sense and fits with Broly's theme of the ultimate saiyan warrior driven by instinct. Of course, if we personally like that or prefer more intellectual motivations is a different issue.

I don't need an intellectual motivation. I need an actual motivation. And instinct isn't a theme. That's not what the movie is about.

Besides, instinct is innate knowledge. Animals have innate knowledge about animals that pose a threat to them. I don't see how that applies to Broly or why that's interesting.

At least by having Vegeta be the one Broly hates, there's a logic to it other than "just cuz."

[BrolyKale]

Broly and Paragus both hate King Vegeta, so broly probably dislikes Vegeta too but it is unclear if he actually hates kakarot or not in the first movie... he just doesnt care about Vegeta because he isn't powerful enough, Broly OS him. The movie wouldnt be interesting if it was only broly vs vegeta, when vegeta was weaker than Goku.

[TheMikado]

OK, now I am confused, I just showed you how Broly is a symbol or embodiment and you just said you didn't like it??

I'm confused why you're confused. I know he's a symbol. I agree.

Again, I'm not understanding why "mirror Logan" gets a pass for strictly being an antagonist and Broly doesn't when they serve the same functions.
Because the movie makes a point about using it to shed light on the real Logan. He's up against what he fears and hates the most - himself. Broly doesn't serve the story in any thematic way. He's simply a super powerful antagonist. It doesn't shed light on how Goku sees himself or what he fears. Also, mirror Logan isn't the central villain of the movie.

They represent something both inside them.

No Broly doesn't. That's you reading into it. This isn't an issue of needing to be hit over the head with the theme. There really isn't a theme in the movie. Broly's just a super strong bad guy. He's not a foil.

He absolutely is a foil to Goku, that's the entire setup and destiny aspect. Or are you saying they just made Goku and Broly born on the same day as coincidence? The setup is entirely to say from. Birth they were setup as enemies and the comparisons are specifically in stark contrast to one another, it's obvious, it's blatant, it's unmissable.

Further Broly sits in relation to both Goku and Vegeta.
Broly as the personification and representation of saiyan race. Goku as the disgrace to it, and Vegeta supposedly as its crowning jewel. It is a physical representation of their internal struggles. Vegeta wishes to uphold and embrace his heritage, but when met with it he cowers in uncharacteristic fear. This is not coincidence. They could have Vegeta embrace and be excited for the LSSJ but that's not what happen for a reason.

Vegeta is forced to confront the brutality and horror of the raw saiyan heritage while Goku as he has always done rejects and fights against it. It is a physical representation of their internal struggle with their heritage. That's all Broly is and a representation of that concept. It's a depth of writing which isn't normally found in a kids show because it wasn't just a kids show for 5 year olds at this point.

Again I the motivation is he same as it is for mirror Logan, as a representation of a concept the character fights against it is manifested physically. There doesn't need to be a motive beyond that because Broly is essentially not a person or a character, he's a symbol, he's a concept. He doesn't need a motivation anymore than a hurricane or an earthquake.

[ABED]

He doesn't show us anything about Goku we didn't already know. He's just a really strong Saiyan. The two were set up to be enemies, but Broly goes after everyone, including his own father. This is hardly what I call destiny.

Further Broly sits in relation to both Goku and Vegeta.
Broly as the personification and representation of saiyan race. Goku as the disgrace to it, and Vegeta supposedly as its crowning jewel. It is a physical representation of their internal struggles. Vegeta wishes to uphold and embrace his heritage, but when met with it he cowers in uncharacteristic fear. This is not coincidence. They could have Vegeta embrace and be excited for the LSSJ but that's not what happen for a reason... Goku as he has always done rejects and fights against it.

You are putting more subtext into it than the writers. It's not a deep movie. It's a simple set up of good guy vs. bad guy. There is no "physical representation of their internal struggles." Neither Goku nor Vegeta struggle with their heritage. Goku doesn't always fight and reject his heritage. He does when he first hears about it, but it's not some ongoing struggle for him. Vegeta isn't forced to confront anything. He doesn't learn and grow from the situation. Vegeta's biggest struggle is his obsession with being better than Goku.

There is no depth, you added that all on your own. DB is about as subtle as a brick through a window.

The movie wouldnt be interesting if it was only broly vs vegeta, when vegeta was weaker than Goku.

It's not that interesting as is. And Broly doesn't have to have some long standing hatred or destiny to fight Goku for their confrontation to have meaning or at least be interesting.

[BrolyKale]

If you think the movie isnt interesting, trust me it'd be worse if Vegeta had to deal with Broly. I mean what do you want to know or see about Vegeta and Broly? they would just fight each other just like broly and goku... vegeta wouldn't make things any better, itd be the same story.

[ABED]

If you think the movie isnt interesting, trust me it'd be worse if Vegeta had to deal with Broly. I mean what do you want to know or see about Vegeta and Broly? they would just fight each other just like broly and goku... vegeta wouldn't make things any better, itd be the same story.

I'm not saying the film should center on Vegeta, but even if it was the exact same movie but with a different motivation is preferable to the one we got. A grudge against Vegeta would be better than destiny or Goku made him cry. No matter how you want to dress it up, it's the Martha of DBZ scenes. Yes, Goku could still be the central protagonist, but if Broly's grudge starts as being directed towards Vegeta, at least it's more interesting than "just cuz". Eventually Broly could set his sights on Goku. There's nothing about a grudge against Vegeta that prevents that.

[BrolyKale]

Ok but you can't change the movie, just accept the way it is. If you dont find it interesting its your opinion. I personally always liked Broly's story, his motivation doesn't matter to me.

[ABED]

Ok but you can't change the movie, just accept the way it is. If you dont find it interesting its your opinion. I personally always liked Broly's story, his motivation doesn't matter to me.

I know I can't change it. That's not the point of the thread.

[BrolyKale]

I know thats not the point of the thread but like i said it'd be the same movie if Broly hated Vegeta (and he does hate him but he just doesn't care about him), and focused more on Vegeta the movie would have been the same, fights and everything... you will still find it annoying and not interesting.

[ABED]

Yes, but less so. At least he would've had a rational motive.

and he does hate him but he just doesn't care about him

A tad contradictory don't ya think?