How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

[Hugo Boss]

Not really, Whis stated that Jiren was stronger than the GoD who had better physical ability than Beerus.

You're mixing up continuities. The only thing stated definitively in the manga is that Jiren surpasses his own God of Destruction, and even then, Toppo was oddly specific about it being "based on combat skill/battle power alone". Take that as you will.

This tidbit about Beerus losing an arm wrestling match is also totally different. Quitela is actually the god that beat Beerus, not Vermoud.

[Goku9001]

Goku and Vegeta are training Broly in the movie which logically happens after Granolah. So they still see him as a respectable fighter worth their time, even when he is in base. Anyhow Broly is getting a boost after that training session.

That doesn't mean anything. Much like how it means nothing that Beerus and Whis were training Goku and Vegeta.

[Xeogran]

Sure, he has great potential, but how does that put him on top even before this arc is over and the new movie even takes place?

Well yeah, definitely not in the current arc. Broly isn't in Top 5 strongest fighters of U7.
Beerus, Gas, Granolah, Goku, Vegeta are all stronger at this moment.

That doesn't mean anything. Much like how it means nothing that Beerus and Whis were training Goku and Vegeta.

We'll see, depends if they try to hype him up or it's just a sparring.

[Berserker1921]

What can make all these Beerus plot holes make sense. If Toriyama just says that “Beerus has been secretly training. Off screen. Since the ToP.” He became afraid and motivated by Goku’s progression. And doesn’t want to be left behind.

[KentMan]

What can make all these Beerus plot holes make sense. If Toriyama just says that “Beerus has been secretly training. Off screen. Since the ToP.” He became afraid and motivated by Goku’s progression. And doesn’t want to be left behind.

No Beerus is not stronger than Jiren I believe there has been a misunderstanding

[Hugo Boss]

What can make all these Beerus plot holes make sense. If Toriyama just says that “Beerus has been secretly training. Off screen. Since the ToP.” He became afraid and motivated by Goku’s progression. And doesn’t want to be left behind.

No Beerus is not stronger than Jiren I believe there has been a misunderstanding

Actually he is in the manga continuity. He only isn’t in the anime continuity, at least for now.

[KentMan]

Actually he is in the manga continuity. He only isn’t in the anime continuity, at least for now.

Your evidence that he is? Any sources?

[Hugo Boss]

Actually he is in the manga continuity. He only isn’t in the anime continuity, at least for now.

Your evidence that he is? Any sources?

Sure. Beerus is currently stronger than Granolah (chapter #70), who is stronger than Goku and Vegeta (chapter #73 to #76), who are stronger than Moro (chapter #64), who is stronger than Jiren (chapter #65). Not only he is stronger than Jiren, but he is leagues above right now.

[KentMan]

Sure. Beerus is currently stronger than Granolah (chapter #70), who is stronger than Goku and Vegeta (chapter #73 to #76), who are stronger than Moro (chapter #64), who is stronger than Jiren (chapter #65). Not only he is stronger than Jiren, but he is leagues above right now.

Ah you’re referring to that wish that Granolah made but it’s ambiguous because Kaioshin are also in that same category. Plus there was a different wish that was used that uses the years of potential one has. Vegeta UE was in the beginning had a lot of oomph as Goku says we don’t know how that compares to Beerus. Or how it compares to Gokus UI since it depends on his accuracy and how long he can maintain it. Moro especially 73 I don’t know that one was confusing. I don’t know how chapter 65 has Beerus above Jiren I was reading it so I don’t know what you mean?

[Hugo Boss]

You can’t lump Supreme Kais with gods of destruction and angels here, because they belong to very different classes of strength. Supreme Kais have been long surpassed by mortal life-forms, so it wouldn’t make sense to include them in the restriction. Not to mention the several times Super Saiyan God was said to be a form that opened up the realm of the gods for Goku and Vegeta, which obviously Supreme Kais aren’t part of, at least on the strength department.

Besides, using Granolah’s long life span was necessary because Toronbo wouldn’t be able to make Granolah stronger than Goku and Vegeta without him paying a huge price. This has nothing to do with the restriction, which was still in effect.

Vegeta’s UE is still not comparable with Beerus’ by his own admission when he was about to accept his defeat and said the technique was still beyond the scope of a novice. Also, Goku never commented he didn’t know how Vegeta compared to Beerus, he only said he felt divine ki and it reminded him of a god of destruction’s ki, similarly to how the silver haired form has divine ki of angel-type.

Chapter #65 is when Goku explains that Moro is the strongest person he has ever fought, meaning he was stronger than Jiren and Broly, and when Goku says Moro could be even stronger if he trained. Of course, Moro was too arrogant to see that and didn’t take Goku’s advice. Instead he claimed Merus’ powers and almost was overwhelmed by them. When Beerus realized Goku lost control of the situation, he was willing to intervene and kill Moro by himself, but Great Priest didn’t allow it and requested his presence immediately.

[KentMan]

You can’t lump Supreme Kais with gods of destruction and angels here, because they belong to very different classes of strength. Supreme Kais have been long surpassed by mortal life-forms, so it wouldn’t make sense to include them in the restriction. Not to mention the several times Super Saiyan God was said to be a form that opened up the realm of the gods for Goku and Vegeta, which obviously Supreme Kais aren’t part of, at least on the strength department.

Besides, using Granolah’s long life span was necessary because Toronbo wouldn’t be able to make Granolah stronger than Goku and Vegeta without him paying a huge price. This has nothing to do with the restriction, which was still in effect.

Vegeta’s UE is still not comparable with Beerus’ by his own admission when he was about to accept his defeat and said the technique was still beyond the scope of a novice. Also, Goku never commented he didn’t know how Vegeta compared to Beerus, he only said he felt divine ki and it reminded him of a god of destruction’s ki, similarly to how the silver haired form has divine ki of angel-type.

Chapter #65 is when Goku explains that Moro is the strongest person he has ever fought, meaning he was stronger than Jiren and Broly, and when Goku says Moro could be even stronger if he trained. Of course, Moro was too arrogant to see that and didn’t take Goku’s advice. Instead he claimed Merus’ powers and almost was overwhelmed by them. When Beerus realized Goku lost control of the situation, he was willing to intervene and kill Moro by himself, but Great Priest didn’t allow it and requested his presence immediately.

I’m pretty certain he said tougher and it’s unknown what he means by that even Herms isn’t certain about it. I remember Beerus saying he would lend a hand to Goku not I’ll destroy Moro by myself. Would’ve been the first time of Goku and Beerus teaming up.

I don’t know how stronger UE makes Vegeta and the only thing that is correct is that he doesn’t have good control over the power that Beerus has. Whether it makes him stronger or not is to be seen.

I can pretty much lump the Kais with the destroyers and guides since there’s no mention of power involved. Plus the dragon says he can draw out latent potential. But if Granolah was willing he can use the years that Granolah could have lived and condense it. And multiply it to Granolah strength making him the strongest in the universe. Whether it makes him stronger than Beerus is up to this years of potential.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku was very clear. Tougher here means “the most difficult one to defeat”, Moro is not only strong but he has so many special abilities, but guess what, Goku thought that through training he would become even tougher, possibly a challenge to Goku (he was hoping that!). Goku is obviously forgetting there are always stronger people showing up time after time. He is simply doing the same remark he does over and over, every single arc. This time Granolah arc makes even clearer that being the best warrior in the universe comes with many abilities in the package, not only the traditional battle power advantage.

Beerus saying he would lend a helping hand in this context is just an euphemism. He was pissed at Goku for messing up again and this time he would directly intervene. Teaming up with Goku? And again, what? Why would Beerus team up with Goku anyway, when all this matter was a non-concern for him. He was only worried about the consequences of Merus’ “death”.

Granolah’s wish is about strength, which is not the Supreme Kais’ forte in the gods hierarchy. So, really, assuming Toronbo is somehow including them in the restriction of a wish that involves increasing one’s power above people like Goku or Moro is totally unfitting. Again, Toronbo very clearly states what Granolah wish is, but to grant that wish in particular it was required a sacrifice, because Granolah current latent power wouldn’t suffice. At the end, Granolah met the condition to become exactly what Toronbo said, the best warrior in the universe, below only the gods (gods of destruction and angels please, forget about Supreme Kais). If Granolah didn’t pay the price he would still be weaker than Goku and Vegeta were.
And you don’t even need that to be expelled out, as Goku and Vegeta are still novices in their respective divine techniques and they made Granolah work very hard for his position.

[KentMan]

Goku was very clear. Tougher here means “the most difficult one to defeat”, Moro is not only strong but he has so many special abilities, but guess what, Goku thought that through training he would become even tougher, possibly a challenge to Goku (he was hoping that!). Goku is obviously forgetting there are always stronger people showing up time after time. He is simply doing the same remark he does over and over, every single arc. This time Granolah arc makes even clearer that being the best warrior in the universe comes with many abilities in the package, not only the traditional battle power advantage.

Beerus saying he would lend a helping hand in this context is just an euphemism. He was pissed at Goku for messing up again and this time he would directly intervene. Teaming up with Goku? And again, what? Why would Beerus team up with Goku anyway, when all this matter was a non-concern for him. He was only worried about the consequences of Merus’ “death”.

Granolah’s wish is about strength, which is not the Supreme Kais’ forte in the gods hierarchy. So, really, assuming Toronbo is somehow including them in the restriction of a wish that involves increasing one’s power above people like Goku or Moro is totally unfitting. Again, Toronbo very clearly states what Granolah wish is, but to grant that wish in particular it was required a sacrifice, because Granolah current latent power wouldn’t suffice. At the end, Granolah met the condition to become exactly what Toronbo said, the best warrior in the universe, below only the gods (gods of destruction and angels please, forget about Supreme Kais). If Granolah didn’t pay the price he would still be weaker than Goku and Vegeta were.
And you don’t even need that to be expelled out, as Goku and Vegeta are still novices in their respective divine techniques and they made Granolah work very hard for his position.

Tougher could mean more durable but as I’ve said it’s unknown what he means by that. Beerus said he would lend a hand that means he’s gonna help Goku deal with Moro. And save the earth from getting destroyed ironically going against his name.

So you’re logic would mean that Granolah is beneath Belmod and Jiren. Toronbo says that he can only increase one’s latent potential. He does however tell Granolah about the years that he can use to become the strongest in the universe. Doesn’t make Granolah weaker than Beerus and even weirder he can use Hakai.

[Hugo Boss]

“More durable” is a possible interpretation, but in the context of Goku’s conversation is unfitting. I made this suggestion before to another person that had this same confusing thoughts, just check how many occurrences of “tough” are present in Herms’ strength checker thread.

Beerus saying he will help Goku is his way of saying he would destroy Moro for them. It’s not different to what he did to Zamasu. This is how Beerus does his stuff.

Toronbo made Granolah stronger than Goku’s silver form, which is stronger than Jiren and Vermoud, no twists about it. It’s a non-issue for me, because Vermoud is not the God of Destruction of Universe #7. The gods Toronbo knows about are Beerus and Whis. Granolah using hakai is likely a plot device to make us believe he is really something else, it’s not supposed to make us think he is qualified to take Beerus’ position. Curiously he and Gas aren’t capable of using UE and UI, which are the signature techniques of the gods, so this is probably also beyond the dragon balls power.

[KentMan]

“More durable” is a possible interpretation, but in the context of Goku’s conversation is unfitting. I made this suggestion before to another person that had this same confusing thoughts, just check how many occurrences of “tough” are present in Herms’ strength checker thread.

Beerus saying he will help Goku is his way of saying he would destroy Moro for them. It’s not different to what he did to Zamasu. This is how Beerus does his stuff.

Toronbo made Granolah stronger than Goku’s silver form, which is stronger than Jiren and Vermoud, no twists about it. It’s a non-issue for me, because Vermoud is not the God of Destruction of Universe #7. The gods Toronbo knows about are Beerus and Whis. Granolah using hakai is likely a plot device to make us believe he is really something else, it’s not supposed to make us think he is qualified to take Beerus’ position. Curiously he and Gas aren’t capable of using UE and UI, which are the signature techniques of the gods, so this is probably also beyond the dragon balls power.

Thanks but I checked what Herms had to say about Goku calling Moro toughest. Beerus isn’t trying to destroy the earth but save it. He or Goku can’t destroy Moro without it blowing up earth and the galaxy. I am gonna assume he did not know about the crystal. If there is one thing that can be said it would be much easier to have Beerus and Goku teaming up to deal with the situation. Good thing Uub had enough ki to bring Goku to UI again.

Yes Granolah is stronger than UI Goku and UE Vegeta helps that Toyotaro said it himself. But him being stronger than Jiren or Belmod is unknown. As you say they ain’t in the same universe. Plus the dragon power lies within one’s potential. If he’s stronger than Belmod and Broly he’s stronger than Beerus.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, everyone's power level in the last few bits of material have essentially been indistinguishable from one another by pure numbers and performance.

For me personally, there's no meaningful difference in actual raw power; it's been more about the application of it and the fighters' other traits.

Jiren is a classical warrior, no real tricks but being a skilled martial artist compared to everyone else; Broly is a berserker, unpredictable but also unrefined; Moro is a tricky magician, augmenting his strength with strange abilities; and Granolah is a wildcard, having experienced such power for the first time and needing to adjust.

Power differences between these guys, and the Gods of Destruction, are negligible compared to their skill levels and special abilities since they all kinda occupy the same general level of power.

[Hugo Boss]

Just for reference here are Herms comments about Moro “toughest” line.

I would say Goku’s superiority over Jiren or Vermoud right now is pretty much a given, unless Jiren kept training hard, and I take his “B” option that Goku doesn’t realize the gods of destruction’s strength. Let’s not forget Herms made that thread a year ago, so he didn’t include Granolah Arc tidbits.

On a side note, Kentman, are you FishermanJohnWest?

[Koitsukai]

I can pretty much lump the Kais with the destroyers and guides since there’s no mention of power involved. Plus the dragon says he can draw out latent potential. But if Granolah was willing he can use the years that Granolah could have lived and condense it. And multiply it to Granolah strength making him the strongest in the universe. Whether it makes him stronger than Beerus is up to this years of potential.

What do you mean there's no mention of power involved? the wish literally is about giving Granny power above everybody else in the universe.

Toronbo was talking about the actually strong as fuck gods, Beerus and Whis.

Beerus also commends Goku's fighting style vs Moro as that of a god... now you don't think he was saying Goku in UI was fighting like Shin and Kaio, do you?

Beerus isn’t trying to destroy the earth but save it. He or Goku can’t destroy Moro without it blowing up earth and the galaxy. I am gonna assume he did not know about the crystal. If there is one thing that can be said it would be much easier to have Beerus and Goku teaming up to deal with the situation.

The implication is that Beerus knew about the crystal. He is no amateur, Whis had to spell it out for Goku, but not to Beerus. And even if he did, off-screen, by the time he was going to jump in, he knew what to do.

[Thani]

The way I see it, everyone's power level in the last few bits of material have essentially been indistinguishable from one another by pure numbers and performance.

For me personally, there's no meaningful difference in actual raw power; it's been more about the application of it and the fighters' other traits.

Jiren is a classical warrior, no real tricks but being a skilled martial artist compared to everyone else; Broly is a berserker, unpredictable but also unrefined; Moro is a tricky magician, augmenting his strength with strange abilities; and Granolah is a wildcard, having experienced such power for the first time and needing to adjust.

Power differences between these guys, and the Gods of Destruction, are negligible compared to their skill levels and special abilities since they all kinda occupy the same general level of power.

Sadly, the manga does not portray that at all. And that's an analysis I completely agree with. ):

[KentMan]

What do you mean there's no mention of power involved? the wish literally is about giving Granny power above everybody else in the universe.

Toronbo was talking about the actually strong as fuck gods, Beerus and Whis.

Beerus also commends Goku's fighting style vs Moro as that of a god... now you don't think he was saying Goku in UI was fighting like Shin and Kaio, do you?

The implication is that Beerus knew about the crystal. He is no amateur, Whis had to spell it out for Goku, but not to Beerus. And even if he did, off-screen, by the time he was going to jump in, he knew what to do.

The Kais would never be surpassed by your logic. It ambiguous as to who was exempt except for Zeno and the guides. The dragon just brings out your potential and depending on it can make you stronger than a destroyer of your years of potential is able to pull it off. Now where does the dragon mention Beerus and Whis otherwise Granolah would know what a destroyer is.

Beerus knowing about the crystal is kinda ambiguous. I doubt he knew about it and as far as anyone knows we don’t know if he knew what to do.