How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

[KentMan]

Just for reference here are Herms comments about Moro “toughest” line.

I would say Goku’s superiority over Jiren or Vermoud right now is pretty much a given, unless Jiren kept training hard, and I take his “B” option that Goku doesn’t realize the gods of destruction’s strength. Let’s not forget Herms made that thread a year ago, so he didn’t include Granolah Arc tidbits.

On a side note, Kentman, are you FishermanJohnWest?

Much like the twitter one Herms again is puzzled as to what that means. When he says in reddit that Goku bested Jiren he did not do that in the manga. So there’s your problem right there because Goku never bested or beat Jiren in the manga. I’m gonna assume and don’t take this the wrong way that you didn’t analyze on what was being said. They’re ain’t nothing in that post putting Jiren and Belmod below Beerus even the twitter one.

[KentMan]

Sadly, the manga does not portray that at all. And that's an analysis I completely agree with. ):

It’s just ambiguity if fans believe things without council or wisdom they be setting themselves up for a fall

[Koitsukai]

What do you mean there's no mention of power involved? the wish literally is about giving Granny power above everybody else in the universe.

Toronbo was talking about the actually strong as fuck gods, Beerus and Whis.

Beerus also commends Goku's fighting style vs Moro as that of a god... now you don't think he was saying Goku in UI was fighting like Shin and Kaio, do you?

The implication is that Beerus knew about the crystal. He is no amateur, Whis had to spell it out for Goku, but not to Beerus. And even if he did, off-screen, by the time he was going to jump in, he knew what to do.

The Kais would never be surpassed by your logic. It ambiguous as to who was exempt except for Zeno and the guides. The dragon just brings out your potential and depending on it can make you stronger than a destroyer of your years of potential is able to pull it off. Now where does the dragon mention Beerus and Whis otherwise Granolah would know what a destroyer is.

Beerus knowing about the crystal is kinda ambiguous. I doubt he knew about it and as far as anyone knows we don’t know if he knew what to do.

I don't know what logic of mine you are referring to. It is not ambiguous at all, it's about U7, Granola asked to be the strongest in the universe, no reason to include out-of-Universe(7) people on the wish.
There's two ways to see the wish: the gods FROM UNIVERSE 7, including every god, meaning Kaioshin, Kaiosama and Dende are still above Goku and Granola... or just the gods that are noted to be fucking strong and still stronger than Goku and Vegeta: Beerus and Whis. There's no third option, you have to pick one of them, which one do you think makes the most sense?

Again: "Beerus also commends Goku's fighting style vs Moro as that of a god... now you don't think he was saying Goku in UI was fighting like Shin and Kaio, do you?"

[KentMan]

I don't know what logic of mine you are referring to. It is not ambiguous at all, it's about U7, Granola asked to be the strongest in the universe, no reason to include out-of-Universe(7) people on the wish.
There's two ways to see the wish: the gods FROM UNIVERSE 7, including every god, meaning Kaioshin, Kaiosama and Dende are still above Goku and Granola... or just the gods that are noted to be fucking strong and still stronger than Goku and Vegeta: Beerus and Whis. There's no third option, you have to pick one of them, which one do you think makes the most sense?

Again: "Beerus also commends Goku's fighting style vs Moro as that of a god... now you don't think he was saying Goku in UI was fighting like Shin and Kaio, do you?"

Yes so if Granolah is weaker than Beerus than he’s weaker than Belmod Quitella and Jiren. If I had to pick one I’m choosing that it depends on Granolah potential. The dragon can’t make him stronger than anyone with the exception of using ones years of living. An unfortunate price to pay to be the strongest in the universe.

As for Beerus comment he is praising Goku for fighting godlike nothing to suggest anything more

[Koitsukai]

I don't know what logic of mine you are referring to. It is not ambiguous at all, it's about U7, Granola asked to be the strongest in the universe, no reason to include out-of-Universe(7) people on the wish.
There's two ways to see the wish: the gods FROM UNIVERSE 7, including every god, meaning Kaioshin, Kaiosama and Dende are still above Goku and Granola... or just the gods that are noted to be fucking strong and still stronger than Goku and Vegeta: Beerus and Whis. There's no third option, you have to pick one of them, which one do you think makes the most sense?

Again: "Beerus also commends Goku's fighting style vs Moro as that of a god... now you don't think he was saying Goku in UI was fighting like Shin and Kaio, do you?"

Yes so if Granolah is weaker than Beerus than he’s weaker than Belmod Quitella and Jiren. If I had to pick one I’m choosing that it depends on Granolah potential. The dragon can’t make him stronger than anyone with the exception of using ones years of living. An unfortunate price to pay to be the strongest in the universe.

As for Beerus comment he is praising Goku for fighting godlike nothing to suggest anything more

What part of Granola asking to be the strongest in HIS universe, makes you think it includes people from other universes????

[KentMan]

What part of Granola asking to be the strongest in HIS universe, makes you think it includes people from other universes????

I never said it included others from other universes just as Beerus was never confirmed to be stronger than Belmod. Hence my point still standing

[Koitsukai]

What part of Granola asking to be the strongest in HIS universe, makes you think it includes people from other universes????

I never said it included others from other universes just as Beerus was never confirmed to be stronger than Belmod. Hence my point still standing

At worst, Goku and Jiren were even at the ToP. If you want it, fine, I don't agree but the lower I can go is Goku at 9 and Jiren at 10.

By now, Goku is waaaay above Jiren's 10, wouldn't you agree after mastering UI? and even stronger now that he is going up the ladder and having UI in every form, so Goku is definitely above the power Jiren displayed at the ToP, which was above Vermoud's. And Goku is weaker than Granola, who is weaker than Beerus... so Beerus > Vermoud is a no-brainer.

At worst, Goku is now on par with Jiren, who was stronger than Vermoud, so Goku is still above Vermoud, and Goku is below Beerus.

Beerus > Granola > Goku <> Jiren > Vermoud

I cannot make it any more clear than this, so let's stop here, because it really is going nowhere.

[Hugo Boss]

Also, there is no reason to keep this thread going, as we have literally the same discussion in three different threads with the same subject.

By the way, you didn’t answer my question, Kentman. Are you FishermanJohnWest?

[KentMan]

At worst, Goku and Jiren were even at the ToP. If you want it, fine, I don't agree but the lower I can go is Goku at 9 and Jiren at 10.

By now, Goku is waaaay above Jiren's 10, wouldn't you agree after mastering UI? and even stronger now that he is going up the ladder and having UI in every form, so Goku is definitely above the power Jiren displayed at the ToP, which was above Vermoud's. And Goku is weaker than Granola, who is weaker than Beerus... so Beerus > Vermoud is a no-brainer.

At worst, Goku is now on par with Jiren, who was stronger than Vermoud, so Goku is still above Vermoud, and Goku is below Beerus.

Beerus > Granola > Goku <> Jiren > Vermoud

I cannot make it any more clear than this, so let's stop here, because it really is going nowhere.

Very well than I’ll just say one more thing to you and the other person next and we can leave this thread for now. But no Goku even in UI got beat by Jiren in the manga. Nothing at all is suggesting that Beerus is above Jiren or Belmod no statements no narrative suggesting otherwise.

[KentMan]

Also, there is no reason to keep this thread going, as we have literally the same discussion in three different threads with the same subject.

By the way, you didn’t answer my question, Kentman. Are you FishermanJohnWest?

Agreed we will leave this thread for now and no I am not obviously

[picc]

Do we really think it makes sense that AT was being so extremely technical that he only meant Moro's body is harder than Jirens?

I think if I asked him what he meant with that, he'd look at me like I was insane. This is one time occams razor is the most prudent one to use, is it not?

[Thani]

Do we really think it makes sense that AT was being so extremely technical that he only meant Moro's body is harder than Jirens?

I think if I asked him what he meant with that, he'd look at me like I was insane. This is one time occams razor is the most prudent one to use, is it not?

Agreed. The most obvious interpretation here is most likely the correct one.

[KentMan]

Do we really think it makes sense that AT was being so extremely technical that he only meant Moro's body is harder than Jirens?

I think if I asked him what he meant with that, he'd look at me like I was insane. This is one time occams razor is the most prudent one to use, is it not?

Agreed. The most obvious interpretation here is most likely the correct one.

Yeah just speculation on both your stances which btw isn’t correct let’s leave this thread for now and come back when more info is included