Between the Funimation dub of Kai and their dub of Super, which would you say is better?

[WittyUsername]

No one has ever said you’re obligated to respect their acting ability, but you generally don’t refer to someone as a talentless hack, unless you’re looking to start an argument.

No, it isn't "looking to start" a damn thing. Only people who A) don't understand what the word "hack" means in the first place, or B) are unhealthily, creepily over-invested, to borderline obsessive personal degrees, with these actors, would "take offense" to that use of the word and thus, start a fight over it.

A dub of low budget cartoons that involve poop jokes and old men sexually harassing underage girls doesn’t require Oscar caliber acting in the first place, so what exactly are the expectations for these kinds of roles to begin with?

Like I said before: James Marsters, an actor whom I personally like a fair bit myself, is in NO WAY some great, all-time awesome acting giant. He's a reasonably solid, mid-level professional, AT BEST. And even HE is capable of utterly TROUNCING this entire cast, who've been voicing these same exact characters of over twenty fucking years now, within his first time ever in the recording booth. Same goes for Ayers and a few of the other Kai-recastings: Linda Young voiced Freeza for YEARS without an OUNCE of improvement, and Ayers completely decimated her interpretation within very short order of his taking it over.

This speaks untold volumes as to the abject lack of talent of many of these folks and just how easily outclassed they are by even the most middle of the road professional actors out there who aren't within the FUNimation bubble.

I don't know how many times I need to keep repeating this point: I'm not asking for Oscar-caliber acting giants to take over these roles. AT ALL. I don't think that high grade, high level acting titans are in ANY WAY "required" to inhabit roles like Chinese Kung Fu Hillbilly, Green Space Slug Mystic, Space Prince With Vegetable Hair, and Catfish God. Thinking that that's what I, or ANYBODY ELSE in here, is asking for is comically, ludicrously missing the point.

A C-level actor like Marsters being able to blow these guys out of the recording booth within five minutes of his showing up (despite their doing these same roles for again TWENTY. STRAIGHT. YEARS.) is in NO WAY a testament to how great and awesome of an actor Marsters is (he's perfectly fine, but not fantastic by any means): its a testament to just HOW SHITTY AND AWFUL the "legacy cast" is, was, and HAS ALWAYS been up till now.

All I'm asking for is BASIC QUALITY CONTROL over this show's English language version. Something it hasn't had (not ENTIRELY or CONSISTENTLY at least) in over 20+ years now. I'm not asking for spectacular, Golden Globe winning talent to take over: I'm asking for even reasonably middle of the role TV-level talent to maybe step in, as opposed to the guys who were randomly plucked from obscurity and haven't been able to fully aclimate themselves in these parts after twenty straight fucking years of doing them.

Once again, you’re resorting to your straw man argument about how anyone who takes issue with your statements must be a creepy stalker. I’ve said this a million times, but I couldn’t care less about any of these people, and I would give zero fucks if they were brutally murdered in an alleyway. I just find statements about them being cheap hacks to not only be pointless, but you and your buddies have also not been providing any explanations as to why that’s the case. Why do you believe there’s no quality control over the dubs for these things? Why do you believe people like Sean Schemmel and Chris Sadat haven’t made any real improvements in 20 years? Either give an explanation, or don’t bother at all. If you can’t do a good job of explainaing why you feel the way you do about something, then I suppose that would make you a talentless hack.

[Kamiccolo9]

Both Kunzait and I have given reasons, yet you keep ignoring them. Unnatural voice acting, poor emoting, inconsistent delivery, etc.

The only ones of those that sound remotely professional are Ayres and Marsters. Schemmel can't utter a natural-sounding utterance in his Goku voice to save his life, and, after over two decades, still sounds like he really needs to take a dump every time Goku powers up. Sabat's Vegeta has the same issue with sounding natural as Schemmel, but he can't even maintain his emotion while doing the voice and he comes across as shouting blandly.

Like, I'm not talking scripting or anything. That's a whole barrel of worms I have no desire to get into. Schemmel and Sabat are trying too hard. What's worse is, they SOUND like they are trying to hard. You can hear the strain in their voices every time they go a decibel over conversation-level volume. And they absolutely cannot do more than the barest emoting when raising their voices. They are incapable of subtlety (which is a problem with virtually every aspect of the dub, going back to the 90s and encompassing essentially all aspects of it), and they come across as amateurish.

That was me from earlier in the thread responding to some other guy posting a few clips.

As far as I'm concerned, the difference between "amateur" and "professional" actors (not going by the actual definition, but my own personal opinion,) is that professional actors don't seem like they are acting. That is not something you see in the legacy cast.

Nozawa's voice for Goku in no way sounds realistic. People just don't really sound like that. Yet it works, because it seems natural. You can tell she's not forcing it, she fits into the role. Schemmel is essentially screaming "LOOK AT ME I'M GOKU TAKE ME SERIOUSLY" with every line he delivers, and it just doesn't work.

[8000 Saiyan]

And these guys do sound professional. Am I saying they're the best in their field? Not necessarily, but they definitely at least sound professional to me.

I don't deny that they sound professional nowadays.

[gokaiblue]

Both Kunzait and I have given reasons, yet you keep ignoring them. Unnatural voice acting, poor emoting, inconsistent delivery, etc.

The only ones of those that sound remotely professional are Ayres and Marsters. Schemmel can't utter a natural-sounding utterance in his Goku voice to save his life, and, after over two decades, still sounds like he really needs to take a dump every time Goku powers up. Sabat's Vegeta has the same issue with sounding natural as Schemmel, but he can't even maintain his emotion while doing the voice and he comes across as shouting blandly.

Like, I'm not talking scripting or anything. That's a whole barrel of worms I have no desire to get into. Schemmel and Sabat are trying too hard. What's worse is, they SOUND like they are trying to hard. You can hear the strain in their voices every time they go a decibel over conversation-level volume. And they absolutely cannot do more than the barest emoting when raising their voices. They are incapable of subtlety (which is a problem with virtually every aspect of the dub, going back to the 90s and encompassing essentially all aspects of it), and they come across as amateurish.

That was me from earlier in the thread responding to some other guy posting a few clips.

As far as I'm concerned, the difference between "amateur" and "professional" actors (not going by the actual definition, but my own personal opinion,) is that professional actors don't seem like they are acting. That is not something you see in the legacy cast.

Nozawa's voice for Goku in no way sounds realistic. People just don't really sound like that. Yet it works, because it seems natural. You can tell she's not forcing it, she fits into the role. Schemmel is essentially screaming "LOOK AT ME I'M GOKU TAKE ME SERIOUSLY" with every line he delivers, and it just doesn't work.

I really don't hear that in Schemmel's Goku at all. His Goku voice is essentially just a raised version of his normal voice. To me, while there are elements that are forced at times, it's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be imo.

[Kunzait_83]

Both Kunzait and I have given reasons, yet you keep ignoring them. Unnatural voice acting, poor emoting, inconsistent delivery, etc.

I literally JUST gave him a detailed explanation (comparing Marsters, a reasonably fine if unremarkable actor, to guys who've been "veterans" of these roles for two decades, and how easily his brief stint in a DBZ recording booth blows them all out of the water) RIGHT WITHIN THE POST HE JUST QUOTED. And he just brushes right on past it. Unreal.

Also gotta love the "I guess that makes YOU the talentless hack!" bit at the end: I think that was supposed to be some kind of big "gotcha!" moment or something.

[Kamiccolo9]

Which is fine, disagree all you want, but don't say that we haven't given reasons or that we're being unfair. I've given Schemmel and co. chances for over 20 years, and they bombed.

[WittyUsername]

Both Kunzait and I have given reasons, yet you keep ignoring them. Unnatural voice acting, poor emoting, inconsistent delivery, etc.

I literally JUST gave him a detailed explanation (comparing Marsters, a reasonably fine if unremarkable actor, to guys who've been "veterans" of these roles for two decades, and how easily his brief stint in a DBZ recording booth blows them all out of the water) RIGHT WITHIN THE POST HE JUST QUOTED. And he just brushes right on past it. Unreal.

Also gotta love the "I guess that makes YOU the talentless hack!" bit at the end: I think that was supposed to be some kind of big "gotcha!" moment or something.

That didn’t strike me as a “detailed explanation”. Saying that something sounds “unnatural” without citing specific examples is not a good explanation, in my opinion. Why not explain why you believe this ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WeXUgF2qEuk) only sounds marginally better than this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2om9tJsswKI)?

Also, I love how you seem to think that using emoticons suddenly makes it seem like you’re anymore clever than me for the “talentless hack” remark.

[gokaiblue]

Both Kunzait and I have given reasons, yet you keep ignoring them. Unnatural voice acting, poor emoting, inconsistent delivery, etc.

I literally JUST gave him a detailed explanation (comparing Marsters, a reasonably fine if unremarkable actor, to guys who've been "veterans" of these roles for two decades, and how easily his brief stint in a DBZ recording booth blows them all out of the water) RIGHT WITHIN THE POST HE JUST QUOTED. And he just brushes right on past it. Unreal.

Also gotta love the "I guess that makes YOU the talentless hack!" bit at the end: I think that was supposed to be some kind of big "gotcha!" moment or something.

That didn’t strike me as a “detailed explanation”. Saying that something sounds “unnatural” without citing specific examples is not a good explanation, in my opinion. Also, I love how you seem to think that using emoticons suddenly makes it seem like you’re anymore clever than me for the “talentless hack” remark.

They did give very detailed explanations, though some specific examples would help.

I'll say this in regards to Marsters. People keep bringing him up as if he's exponetially better than the legacy cast, but I'm going to be honest, he sounds only slightly better (still amazing though).

[WittyUsername]

Just to be clear, my initial response to Kamiccolo that Kunzait interpreted as me being “outraged” by his statement was as follows:

Okay, you’re free to not like the voices, but come on. “Bargain-basement talentless hacks”? Sean Schemmel has two decades of experience as a voice actor at this point. You don’t have to like his performance, but surely you can at least acknowledge that him, Sabat and Strait have come a long way since 1999?

That wasn’t me being outraged at what he said. That was me thinking that his comment was just a tad unnecessary, and that it came across as bait. I’m not saying that was his intention, in fact, I believe at this point that it probably wasn’t, but that was what it came across as at the time, hence why I responded the way I did. In any case, there was no need for anyone to make matters worse by insisting that I have some kind of bizarre to devotion to these voice actors, because, to be frank, I have little respect for voice actors to begin with, especially when they’re working a dead end job like anime dubbing. People like Neil Armstrong and Muhammad Ali have my respect, not some random people who voice cartoon characters.

[OmegaRockman]

My vote goes to Kai as the better dub. By a country mile. The script, even in The Final Chapters, generally stays truer to the spirit of the original with less added jokes and whatnot. I also find the performances to be better - in Super it generally feels like the cast is rushing to meet broadcast deadlines (which was true for Kai, as well, but they seemed to handle it a bit better there). As a result, there are some awkward deliveries here and there.

However, that doesn't mean I find Super's dub to be bad or unlistenable by any means. While there are more liberties taken and added jokes than in Kai, I find them to be few and small enough to be of little concern. In general, Super's script still stays fairly close to the Japanese version and its intent. For the most part, when an adlibbed line makes it in it stays true to the intent of the scene.

Take the "forgot my tractor" line for example: Schemmel puts on a similar "bad actor voice" that Nozawa does with her (intentionally) over the top, fake-sounding screams in her take on the scene. While the dub adds a line, it maintains the scene's original intent. Do I think it was necessary? Absolutely not. Does it interfere with the intent of the scene? No. So while it's not what I would have done, I don't think it deserves any more than a "meh" from me.

How about the more egregious changes, like the "Well, it was you or mankind, so yeah" from Trunks or "I'm the star of this damn show!" from Vegeta? Well, the latter was NOT a fourth-wall break, like I've seen some critics claim: it's playing off of Black describing him as an opening act (which, by the way, WAS in the Japanese version). Again, was it necessary? Not at all. However, I still think it plays into the intent of the scene, with Vegeta allowing his arrogance to get the better of him, leading to him getting stabbed. I would have probably done something a little closer to the Japanese (maybe a "See you in Hell!" or something else that evokes the same meaning, that being Vegeta thinking he's about to destroy this dude), but as-is I don't think the line takes too much away. And during all this, most of the other surrounding lines are more or less rephrased versions of the Japanese lines, making this change relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and not a "fourth wall break" by any means. To those who have levied the "fourth wall" criticism against this line: if you want something a bit closer, I'm with you. I AGREE with you. I prefer my dubs to stay a bit closer to the Japanese. However, when taken in proper context, it's pretty clear that this line does not break the fourth wall. You don't need to make up reasons to dislike this line. Say "it strays a bit much from the Japanese for my liking" and leave it at that.

As for the former line, yeah. Can't really defend that one, and I'm honestly not a fan of it myself. Same with "Let's go see Yamcha" and "Super Saiyan Please." However, the surrounding lines are still pretty close to the Japanese, so they're a few sore spots in an otherwise pretty accurate version of the show. I can show this dub to friends and family and not feel like they're getting cheated, unlike with the pre-Kai dubs save for a handful of the movies (some of which were dubbed by an entirely different studio). This dub isn't nearly as inaccurate as the Z dub, the GT dub, or the original DB dub. Hell, this isn't even as inaccurate as what I've seen of the Yu Yu Hakusho dub (which had several inaccuracies from what I've seen, even if they stayed true to the spirit of the show - I can't give a full judgement since I haven't finished the show in either language, but I've seen 30 or so episodes, so I think that's a decent enough barometer).

Do I want the Super dub to be better? Of course. I don't want a step down from the Kai dub, I want them to keep doing better! Do I agree with Sabat's stance that the few liberties taken are okay since the Japanese version is right there? Not in the least. I've met Sabat in person at a local con and he's genuinely one of the NICEST actors I've ever met, but as someone who wants to eventually work professionally on anime dubs in the future, I find his reasoning to fly against my entire philosophy concerning the responsibilities that come with bringing these shows to a new market. Do I think that Kai's dub is better overall, acting and script-wise? ABSOLUTELY. Dragon Ball Kai, flawed as it is, is my definitive way of introducing the Z portion of the show to a new audience, and the dub is no small part of that. While Super gets close to Kai's level of accuracy and performances, its missteps hold it back from being on the same level in my eyes.

However, I still enjoy watching the Super dub from week to week. The script stays fairly close when it counts, and I'm mostly happy with the performances even though I can tell that some reads are rushed. I still enjoy the returning actors from Kai, new cast members (save for Microsoft Sam) consistently knock it out of the park. ESPECIALLY Marsters. My strongest issues with the Super dub are the Z dub holdovers (Kaio's voice, attack names) and what they did to Magetta.

Despite the issues I have, though, I'm confident if I were to talk about Super with a dub-exclusive watcher that we wouldn't be talking about two separate shows. That's a lot more than I can say for the pre-Kai dubs. For that reason, I think the Super dub is "good enough." Granted, I wish that it wasn't only "good enough," and I sincerely hope that they improve things going into the Universe Survival Arc. However, all I ask for is the ability to watch the show with my niece and not want to rip my hair out. Other than a few hiccups here and there, the Super dub accomplishes that for me.

[gokaiblue]

My vote goes to Kai as the better dub. By a country mile. The script, even in The Final Chapters, generally stays truer to the spirit of the original with less added jokes and whatnot. I also find the performances to be better - in Super it generally feels like the cast is rushing to meet broadcast deadlines (which was true for Kai, as well, but they seemed to handle it a bit better there). As a result, there are some awkward deliveries here and there.

However, that doesn't mean I find Super's dub to be bad or unlistenable by any means. While there are more liberties taken and added jokes than in Kai, I find them to be few and small enough to be of little concern. In general, Super's script still stays fairly close to the Japanese version and its intent. For the most part, when an adlibbed line makes it in it stays true to the intent of the scene.

Take the "forgot my tractor" line for example: Schemmel puts on a similar "bad actor voice" that Nozawa does with her (intentionally) over the top, fake-sounding screams in her take on the scene. While the dub adds a line, it maintains the scene's original intent. Do I think it was necessary? Absolutely not. Does it interfere with the intent of the scene? No. So while it's not what I would have done, I don't think it deserves any more than a "meh" from me.

How about the more egregious changes, like the "Well, it was you or mankind, so yeah" from Trunks or "I'm the star of this damn show!" from Vegeta? Well, the latter was NOT a fourth-wall break, like I've seen some critics claim: it's playing off of Black describing him as an opening act (which, by the way, WAS in the Japanese version). Again, was it necessary? Not at all. However, I still think it plays into the intent of the scene, with Vegeta allowing his arrogance to get the better of him, leading to him getting stabbed. I would have probably done something a little closer to the Japanese (maybe a "See you in Hell!" or something else that evokes the same meaning, that being Vegeta thinking he's about to destroy this dude), but as-is I don't think the line takes too much away. And during all this, most of the other surrounding lines are more or less rephrased versions of the Japanese lines, making this change relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and not a "fourth wall break" by any means. To those who have levied the "fourth wall" criticism against this line: if you want something a bit closer, I'm with you. I AGREE with you. I prefer my dubs to stay a bit closer to the Japanese. However, when taken in proper context, it's pretty clear that this line does not break the fourth wall. You don't need to make up reasons to dislike this line. Say "it strays a bit much from the Japanese for my liking" and leave it at that.

As for the former line, yeah. Can't really defend that one, and I'm honestly not a fan of it myself. Same with "Let's go see Yamcha" and "Super Saiyan Please." However, the surrounding lines are still pretty close to the Japanese, so they're a few sore spots in an otherwise pretty accurate version of the show. I can show this dub to friends and family and not feel like they're getting cheated, unlike with the pre-Kai dubs save for a handful of the movies (some of which were dubbed by an entirely different studio). This dub isn't nearly as inaccurate as the Z dub, the GT dub, or the original DB dub. Hell, this isn't even as inaccurate as what I've seen of the Yu Yu Hakusho dub (which had several inaccuracies from what I've seen, even if they stayed true to the spirit of the show - I can't give a full judgement since I haven't finished the show in either language, but I've seen 30 or so episodes, so I think that's a decent enough barometer).

Do I want the Super dub to be better? Of course. I don't want a step down from the Kai dub, I want them to keep doing better! Do I agree with Sabat's stance that the few liberties taken are okay since the Japanese version is right there? Not in the least. I've met Sabat in person at a local con and he's genuinely one of the NICEST actors I've ever met, but as someone who wants to eventually work professionally on anime dubs in the future, I find his reasoning to fly against my entire philosophy concerning the responsibilities that come with bringing these shows to a new market. Do I think that Kai's dub is better overall, acting and script-wise? ABSOLUTELY. Dragon Ball Kai, flawed as it is, is my definitive way of introducing the Z portion of the show to a new audience, and the dub is no small part of that. While Super gets close to Kai's level of accuracy and performances, its missteps hold it back from being on the same level in my eyes.

However, I still enjoy watching the Super dub from week to week. The script stays fairly close when it counts, and I'm mostly happy with the performances even though I can tell that some reads are rushed. I still enjoy the returning actors from Kai, new cast members (save for Microsoft Sam) consistently knock it out of the park. ESPECIALLY Marsters. My strongest issues with the Super dub are the Z dub holdovers (Kaio's voice, attack names) and what they did to Magetta.

Despite the issues I have, though, I'm confident if I were to talk about Super with a dub-exclusive watcher that we wouldn't be talking about two separate shows. That's a lot more than I can say for the pre-Kai dubs. For that reason, I think the Super dub is "good enough." Granted, I wish that it wasn't only "good enough," and I sincerely hope that they improve things going into the Universe Survival Arc. However, all I ask for is the ability to watch the show with my niece and not want to rip my hair out. Other than a few hiccups here and there, the Super dub accomplishes that for me.

Well said, and I feel that it will improve as it goes along. The Future Trunks arc seemed pretty accurate, and I only think ot will go up from here.

[Fionordequester]

People are more than free (and welcome) to engage with me in whatever the hell I say or think: the only thing I simply ask is for people to not get so personally upset and offended when I don't agree in any way with the fanbase's "conventional wisdom" on something. In this case, that conventional wisdom being that "the FUNimation actors have DRAMATICALLY improved over the years".

Again, I don't think your views are what's making folks upset and offended. Rather, it's how they're presented.

But, I know that I'm a stranger, and you just told me that you don't appreciate strangers doing stuff you'd prefer only your friends to do. So I want to ask, first: "Would you like me to go indepth as to what I mean?".

[Kunzait_83]

That didn’t strike me as a “detailed explanation”. Saying that something sounds “unnatural” without citing specific examples is not a good explanation, in my opinion.

Well I'm legitimately, sincerely sorry that my paragraphs-long, multi-page, in-depth responses apparently weren't up to your exacting standards of what constitutes "sufficiently detailed enough". I really don't know what else to tell you, other than I find whatever your entire beef even is with this whole discussion to be completely and utterly mystifying.

Why not explain why you believe this ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WeXUgF2qEuk) only sounds marginally better than this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2om9tJsswKI)?

The Z clip's shittiness obviously speaks for itself. I really hope I don't have to go into needless detail on that.

In the Kai clip however, I get that Schemmel's Goku is supposed to be having a mental breakdown over his friend who was just killed. But the way Nozawa plays this scene in the original... again, here's that word again, its subtle. Less is more. Her Goku is trying and only BARELY keeping this murderous outburst of rage in check, trying for all he's worth to get control of this uncontrollable fury inside of him.... and she only lets loose with an inhuman scream (helped with a nice use of a very quick and well placed echo effect on the production's end) RIGHT at the very end at the moment of the SSJ transformation.

Notice how she's BARELY making any noises throughout the scene. They're there, but they're VERY faint. Its like she's choking down genuine sobs of grief and anguish. Again... its SUBTLE. Less is more. She's, you know... acting. Inhabiting a performance, in a moment of intense grief. Like Kamiccolo said before, her Goku voice in general may not be REALISTIC in terms of how most people are pitched vocally... but in terms of raw emoting? This is a genuine, even layered, performance that is emotionally believable and convincing. I completely buy that Goku, in this scene, is a boiling mixture of intense rage and tear-filled grieving.

Over on Schemmel's end, in Kai (the "tremendously improved" version); he utterly FAILS to convince emotionally because he's, seemingly pathologically at this point, fundamentally incapable of conveying subtlety and nuance of emotions. Instead of subtly choking back tears, trying to stifle or muffle his anger... he's "Ygggggh!! RRRRGGGG!!! CONSTANTLY!!! UUUUGGHGHGHD!!!! MAKING!!! UUUGHSHAGAGGA!!! RIDICULOUS!!! AAAAAAAFFHFFFHFHFHGG!!! NOOOOOISES!!!"

He doesn't sound like someone who is genuinely in immense grief and rage... he sounds like a hammy, over-acting... *ahem*... hack, who's "big emotional moment" in this scene instead comes across as unintentionally laugh-out-loud hilarious. He literally sounds like he's tweaking on meth or something. It is totally unnatural and painfully, painfully forced: as has been the ever-recurring theme of every single last FUNimation Dragon Ball dub throughout the years.

When I listened to this clip the other day (from another link in this very thread) I actually laughed at it. Not purposefully or in deliberate exaggeration to "make a point" of how much I thought it sucked: no one was in the room with me at the time. My laughter was a genuine, uncontrolled reflex reaction to the absurd noises Schemmel was making. That's how this (massively crucially important and iconic within the DB series) scene actually landed with me. That's... NOT good, or in any way the intended reaction this should get.

If THIS is a "convincing display of grief" to someone... then I'm sorry, but I have to genuinely ask if you've EVER been around someone in real life who was in immense genuine grief before; and if you were and they sounded ANYTHING like this, I would then be forced to ask what sort of medication they happened to be on at the time that would make them sound ANYTHING like this.

And if THIS is the "FUNimation cast at their all time absolute best ever in the astronomical improvement that is the Kai dub"... then this ENTIRE FUNimation dubbing endeavor still remains as much of a massive belly-flop of a bomb as it ever has. And that its taken THIS many drawn out, tediously long years just for it to reach THIS mildly less crappy (but still crappy nonetheless) of a plateau... that in itself is beyond pathetic, and this whole dub has been a 20 year long exercise in continually polishing and spit-shining a turd.

And no, none of this is or has been me trying to "bait" anyone here... I don't do "baiting". I NEVER HAVE done "baiting". Ever. Ever-ever. I'm not a fucking Chan troll or something. What I say above I mean as earnestly and sincerely as just my personal take on all this crap (after more than 26+ fucking years of DB fandom... egads).

I just don't fundamentally agree with a lot of the "mainstream" opinions of the current day fanbase: in large part because I've NEVER been at ANY point coming at this material from the same critical vantage point as most of them. That doesn't mean I "look down on" anyone over any of this crap (that would be beyond sad in and of itself): it simply means that my perspective is, and has long been, RADICALLY different from most who are currently active in Dragon Ball (and even general anime) fandom today.

So... does THAT work for you? Was THAT enough to sufficiently help explain and "justify" my opinion on this?

Also, I love how you seem to think that using emoticons suddenly makes it seem like you’re anymore clever than me for the “talentless hack” remark.

...

Ok, no snark or joke here, in all utmost sincerity: I totally have NO goddamn idea what in the absolute mother of fuck this even is supposed to mean.

My use of those emoticons wasn't to suggest that I "think that I'm more clever than you are". That strikes me as such a patently absurd, bordering on paranoid delusional reading of my post (of the "Oh what you think you're better than me?! You think you're better than me?! You ain't no better'n me!" sort of mindset).

I used laughing emoticons to simply suggest that I found your attempt at a "parting shot" there to be genuinely humorous: because you assumed that by "turning the guns around on me" and calling ME a "talentless hack" that it would somehow get a rise out of me and I might "get offended" and thus "NOW I'll know how it feels!".

And yeah... whatever was the intended impact on your end of saying that, it certainly did NOT have that effect. I just found the attempt, in and of itself, to be ridiculously silly and juvenile, to the point of it making me laugh out loud. Hence the laughing emojis.

[WittyUsername]

That didn’t strike me as a “detailed explanation”. Saying that something sounds “unnatural” without citing specific examples is not a good explanation, in my opinion.

Well I'm legitimately, sincerely sorry that my paragraphs-long, multi-page, in-depth responses apparently weren't up to your exacting standards of what constitutes "sufficiently detailed enough". I really don't know what else to tell you, other than I find whatever your entire beef even is with this whole discussion to be completely and utterly mystifying.

Why not explain why you believe this ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WeXUgF2qEuk) only sounds marginally better than this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2om9tJsswKI)?

The Z clip's shittiness obviously speaks for itself. I really hope I don't have to go into needless detail on that.

In the Kai clip however, I get that Schemmel's Goku is supposed to be having a mental breakdown over his friend who was just killed. But the way Nozawa plays this scene in the original... again, here's that word again, its subtle. Less is more. Her Goku is trying and only BARELY keeping this murderous outburst of rage in check, trying for all he's worth to get control of this uncontrollable fury inside of him.... and she only lets loose with an inhuman scream (helped with a nice use of a very quick and well placed echo effect on the production's end) RIGHT at the very end at the moment of the SSJ transformation.

Notice how she's BARELY making any noises throughout the scene. They're there, but they're VERY faint. Its like she's choking down genuine sobs of grief and anguish. Again... its SUBTLE. Less is more. She's, you know... acting. Inhabiting a performance, in a moment of intense grief. Like Kamiccolo said before, her Goku voice in general may not be REALISTIC in terms of how most people are pitched vocally... but in terms of raw emoting? This is a genuine, even layered, performance that is emotionally believable and convincing. I completely buy that Goku, in this scene, is a boiling mixture of intense rage and tear-filled grieving.

Over on Schemmel's end, in Kai (the "tremendously improved" version); he utterly FAILS to convince emotionally because he's, seemingly pathologically at this point, fundamentally incapable of conveying subtlety and nuance of emotions. Instead of subtly choking back tears, trying to stifle or muffle his anger... he's "Ygggggh!! RRRRGGGG!!! CONSTANTLY!!! UUUUGGHGHGHD!!!! MAKING!!! UUUGHSHAGAGGA!!! RIDICULOUS!!! AAAAAAAFFHFFFHFHFHGG!!! NOOOOOISES!!!"

He doesn't sound like someone who is genuinely in immense grief and rage... he sounds like a hammy, over-acting... *ahem*... hack, who's "big emotional moment" in this scene instead comes across as unintentionally laugh-out-loud hilarious. He literally sounds like he's tweaking on meth or something. When I listened to this clip the other day (from another link in this very thread) I actually laughed at it. Not purposefully or in deliberate exaggeration to "make a point" of how much I thought it sucked: no one was in the room with me at the time. My laughter was a genuine, uncontrolled reflex reaction to the absurd noises Schemmel was making. That's how this (massively crucially important and iconic within the DB series) scene actually landed with me. That's... NOT good, or in any way the intended reaction this should get.

If THIS is a "convincing display of grief" to someone... then I'm sorry, but I have to genuinely ask if you've EVER been around someone in real life who was in immense genuine grief before; and if you were and they sounded ANYTHING like this, I would then be forced to ask what sort of medication they happened to be on at the time that would make them sound ANYTHING like this.

And if THIS is the "FUNimation cast at their all time absolute best ever in the astronomical improvement that is the Kai dub"... then this ENTIRE FUNimation dubbing endeavor still remains as much of a massive belly-flop of a bomb as it ever has. And that its taken THIS many drawn out, tediously long years just for it to reach THIS mildly less crappy (but still crappy nonetheless) of a plateau... that in itself is beyond pathetic, and this whole dub has been a 20 year long exercise in continually polishing and spit-shining a turd.

And no, none of this is or has been me trying to "bait" anyone here... I don't do "bating". I NEVER HAVE done "bating". Ever. Ever-ever. I'm not a fucking Chan troll or something. What I say above I mean as earnestly and sincerely as just my personal take on all this crap (after more than 26+ fucking years of DB fandom... egads).

I just don't fundamentally agree with a lot of the "mainstream" opinions of the current day fanbase: in large part because I've NEVER been at ANY point coming at this material from the same critical vantage point as most of them. That doesn't mean I "look down on" anyone over any of this crap (that would be beyond sad in and of itself): it simply means that my perspective is, and has long been, RADICALLY different from most who are currently active in Dragon Ball (and even general anime) fandom today.

So... does THAT work for you? Was THAT enough to sufficiently help explain and "justify" my opinion on this?

Also, I love how you seem to think that using emoticons suddenly makes it seem like you’re anymore clever than me for the “talentless hack” remark.

...

Ok, no snark or joke here, in all utmost sincerity: I totally have NO goddamn idea what in the absolute mother of fuck this even is supposed to mean.

My use of those emoticons wasn't to suggest that I "think that I'm more clever than you are". That strikes me as such a patently absurd, bordering on paranoid delusional reading of my post (of the "Oh what you think you're better than me?! You think you're better than me?! You ain't no better'n me!" sort of mindset).

I used laughing emoticons to simply suggest that I found your attempt at a "parting shot" there to be genuinely humorous: because you assumed that by "turning the guns around on me" and calling ME a "talentless hack" that it would somehow get a rise out of me and I might "get offended" and thus "NOW I'll know how it feels!".

And yeah... whatever was the intended impact on your end of saying that, it certainly did NOT have that effect. I just found the attempt, in and of itself, to be ridiculously silly and juvenile, to the point of it making me laugh out loud. Hence the laughing emojis.

I appreciate that you were willing to go into why you feel the way you do about the specific scenes I provided. I still don’t really understand how you could look at the two Funimaton scenes specifically and not come to the conclusion that the one in Kai is a significant improvement, and not just a marginal one, even if it’s perhaps not as good as Nozawa’s version of it, but I appreciate that you gave some real insight.

With that being said, how exactly was I supposed to interpret you accusing me of being an obsessive and immature fan of a couple of voice actors to be anything other than an obnoxious insult? That was how this whole “debate” started. Again, my initial response to Kamiccolo that you blew completely out of proportion was as follows:

Okay, you’re free to not like the voices, but come on. “Bargain-basement talentless hacks”? Sean Schemmel has two decades of experience as a voice actor at this point. You don’t have to like his performance, but surely you can at least acknowledge that him, Sabat and Strait have come a long way since 1999?

The above quote wasn’t me being outraged that someone would dare express their dislike over the performances of some random idiots who were unlucky enough to land jobs as voice actors for a children’s cartoon. That was me being baffled that someone would care enough about their performances to make a comment that I initially assumed to have been bait. I realize now that Kamiccolo most likely wasn’t trying to bait anyone, and that he was simply expressing his honest opinion in a somewhat unconventional way, but there was no need for you to try and accuse the people who took issue with his post of being immature dub fans who worship people like Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat.

[gokaiblue]

That didn’t strike me as a “detailed explanation”. Saying that something sounds “unnatural” without citing specific examples is not a good explanation, in my opinion.

Well I'm legitimately, sincerely sorry that my paragraphs-long, multi-page, in-depth responses apparently weren't up to your exacting standards of what constitutes "sufficiently detailed enough". I really don't know what else to tell you, other than I find whatever your entire beef even is with this whole discussion to be completely and utterly mystifying.

Why not explain why you believe this ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WeXUgF2qEuk) only sounds marginally better than this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2om9tJsswKI)?

The Z clip's shittiness obviously speaks for itself. I really hope I don't have to go into needless detail on that.

In the Kai clip however, I get that Schemmel's Goku is supposed to be having a mental breakdown over his friend who was just killed. But the way Nozawa plays this scene in the original... again, here's that word again, its subtle. Less is more. Her Goku is trying and only BARELY keeping this murderous outburst of rage in check, trying for all he's worth to get control of this uncontrollable fury inside of him.... and she only lets loose with an inhuman scream (helped with a nice use of a very quick and well placed echo effect on the production's end) RIGHT at the very end at the moment of the SSJ transformation.

Notice how she's BARELY making any noises throughout the scene. They're there, but they're VERY faint. Its like she's choking down genuine sobs of grief and anguish. Again... its SUBTLE. Less is more. She's, you know... acting. Inhabiting a performance, in a moment of intense grief. Like Kamiccolo said before, her Goku voice in general may not be REALISTIC in terms of how most people are pitched vocally... but in terms of raw emoting? This is a genuine, even layered, performance that is emotionally believable and convincing. I completely buy that Goku, in this scene, is a boiling mixture of intense rage and tear-filled grieving.

Over on Schemmel's end, in Kai (the "tremendously improved" version); he utterly FAILS to convince emotionally because he's, seemingly pathologically at this point, fundamentally incapable of conveying subtlety and nuance of emotions. Instead of subtly choking back tears, trying to stifle or muffle his anger... he's "Ygggggh!! RRRRGGGG!!! CONSTANTLY!!! UUUUGGHGHGHD!!!! MAKING!!! UUUGHSHAGAGGA!!! RIDICULOUS!!! AAAAAAAFFHFFFHFHFHGG!!! NOOOOOISES!!!"

He doesn't sound like someone who is genuinely in immense grief and rage... he sounds like a hammy, over-acting... *ahem*... hack, who's "big emotional moment" in this scene instead comes across as unintentionally laugh-out-loud hilarious. He literally sounds like he's tweaking on meth or something. It is totally unnatural and painfully, painfully forced: as has been the ever-recurring theme of every single last FUNimation Dragon Ball dub throughout the years.

When I listened to this clip the other day (from another link in this very thread) I actually laughed at it. Not purposefully or in deliberate exaggeration to "make a point" of how much I thought it sucked: no one was in the room with me at the time. My laughter was a genuine, uncontrolled reflex reaction to the absurd noises Schemmel was making. That's how this (massively crucially important and iconic within the DB series) scene actually landed with me. That's... NOT good, or in any way the intended reaction this should get.

If THIS is a "convincing display of grief" to someone... then I'm sorry, but I have to genuinely ask if you've EVER been around someone in real life who was in immense genuine grief before; and if you were and they sounded ANYTHING like this, I would then be forced to ask what sort of medication they happened to be on at the time that would make them sound ANYTHING like this.

And if THIS is the "FUNimation cast at their all time absolute best ever in the astronomical improvement that is the Kai dub"... then this ENTIRE FUNimation dubbing endeavor still remains as much of a massive belly-flop of a bomb as it ever has. And that its taken THIS many drawn out, tediously long years just for it to reach THIS mildly less crappy (but still crappy nonetheless) of a plateau... that in itself is beyond pathetic, and this whole dub has been a 20 year long exercise in continually polishing and spit-shining a turd.

Once again, going to have to disagree with your assesment. I watched both versions bsck to back, I definitely see what you mean, but I feel that even though Schemmel makes "absurd noises" during this scene, it still conveys essentially the same thing as the original Japanese version. Schemmel's Goku still sounds like he's grieving, but it's mixed moreso with fury. Both versions show Goku trying to restrain this power and fury caused by Krillin's death up until the last scream. While Nozawa's scream was aided by reverb and sfx to make it show unhuman, Schemmel is not aided by that, but still manages to let out an inhuman sounding scream that represents Goku's feelings during this scene.

[WittyUsername]

I guess I’ll just try to clear one more thing up by saying that I’m well aware of what the word “hack” means. There’s no need to condescendingly pull up a dictionary definition of the word, because I’m aware of how the word is used. I just think that using that specific word to express your dislike for a performance in a cartoon is ridiculous, in the same way that I find calling someone a “genius” because you like their performance in a cartoon to also be ridiculous. Plus, I don’t think it reflects very well on the fandom as a whole. It just makes people sound like Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons, in my opinion.

You can go ahead and continue to accuse me of worshipping people like Schemmel and Sabat all you want, but I take issue with pretty much any actor being called a hack for a performance, when they are generally just being given directions by the director. For the record, I have less of a problem with writers and directors being called hacks, since those guys are the ones who are actually making the creative decisions.

[Fionordequester]

You can go ahead and continue to accuse me of worshipping people like Schemmel and Sabat all you want, but I take issue with pretty much any actor being called a hack for a performance, when they are generally just being given directions by the director. For the record, I have less of a problem with writers and directors being called hacks, since those guys are the ones who are actually making the creative decisions.

He's got a point. Even James Marsters couldn't escape the effects of bad direction in Xenoverse 2...

Zamasu is a nice mentor

It was bad enough that the TFS guys were making jokes about how he got plastered before entering the recording booth .

[Baggie_Saiyan]

While I don't think FUNi cast are still a match for JPN cast from their prime* back in the day, I do think they easily surpass them in modern era DB (with the expection of F Trunks and maybe a few others) big one being Goku (there were so many stand out Goku and moments I didn't realise when re-watching the dub) and with new characters being about par.

*Honestly hearing the JPN cast from Z and then listening to DBS it was like quality whiplash!

I wouldn't say the FUNi cast easily surpasses them now but are neck in neck at this point (with regards to Joji Yanami). They're getting up there with the quality of the Japanese cast in their prime too, though. I think it'll be interesting to hear them once they've been doing it for 30 years.

Future Trunks is the only one where I think the Japanese performance was vastly superior, Vale was decent enough but was rather inconsistent.

I would agree the likes of Sabat and Horikawa are probably neck and neck now I think about it. But the likes of Goku is a massive improvement over the current Nozawa performance, her screams and grunts were woeful and were one note, every time Goku got knocked back it was the same annoying waaaaah scream that sounds like a poor impression of a crying baby for example and then the ridiculous Gohan vs Goku episode.

[gokaiblue]

While I don't think FUNi cast are still a match for JPN cast from their prime* back in the day, I do think they easily surpass them in modern era DB (with the expection of F Trunks and maybe a few others) big one being Goku (there were so many stand out Goku and moments I didn't realise when re-watching the dub) and with new characters being about par.

*Honestly hearing the JPN cast from Z and then listening to DBS it was like quality whiplash!

I wouldn't say the FUNi cast easily surpasses them now but are neck in neck at this point (with regards to Joji Yanami). They're getting up there with the quality of the Japanese cast in their prime too, though. I think it'll be interesting to hear them once they've been doing it for 30 years.

Future Trunks is the only one where I think the Japanese performance was vastly superior, Vale was decent enough but was rather inconsistent.

I would agree the likes of Sabat and Horikawa are probably neck and neck now I think about it. But the likes of Goku is a massive improvement over the current Nozawa performance, her screams and grunts were woeful and were one note, every time Goku got knocked back it was the same annoying waaaaah scream that sounds like a poor impression of a crying baby for example and then the ridiculous Gohan vs Goku episode.

Agreed on Future Trunks and Vegeta, but not so sure about Nozawa. I'll have to rewatch some episodes in Japanese in order to make a proper assessment.

[Singh is King]

That didn’t strike me as a “detailed explanation”. Saying that something sounds “unnatural” without citing specific examples is not a good explanation, in my opinion.

Over on Schemmel's end, in Kai (the "tremendously improved" version); he utterly FAILS to convince emotionally because he's, seemingly pathologically at this point, fundamentally incapable of conveying subtlety and nuance of emotions. Instead of subtly choking back tears, trying to stifle or muffle his anger... he's "Ygggggh!! RRRRGGGG!!! CONSTANTLY!!! UUUUGGHGHGHD!!!! MAKING!!! UUUGHSHAGAGGA!!! RIDICULOUS!!! AAAAAAAFFHFFFHFHFHGG!!! NOOOOOISES!!!"

He doesn't sound like someone who is genuinely in immense grief and rage... he sounds like a hammy, over-acting... *ahem*... hack, who's "big emotional moment" in this scene instead comes across as unintentionally laugh-out-loud hilarious. He literally sounds like he's tweaking on meth or something. It is totally unnatural and painfully, painfully forced: as has been the ever-recurring theme of every single last FUNimation Dragon Ball dub throughout the years.

When I listened to this clip the other day (from another link in this very thread) I actually laughed at it. Not purposefully or in deliberate exaggeration to "make a point" of how much I thought it sucked: no one was in the room with me at the time. My laughter was a genuine, uncontrolled reflex reaction to the absurd noises Schemmel was making. That's how this (massively crucially important and iconic within the DB series) scene actually landed with me. That's... NOT good, or in any way the intended reaction this should get.

If THIS is a "convincing display of grief" to someone... then I'm sorry, but I have to genuinely ask if you've EVER been around someone in real life who was in immense genuine grief before; and if you were and they sounded ANYTHING like this, I would then be forced to ask what sort of medication they happened to be on at the time that would make them sound ANYTHING like this.

And if THIS is the "FUNimation cast at their all time absolute best ever in the astronomical improvement that is the Kai dub"... then this ENTIRE FUNimation dubbing endeavor still remains as much of a massive belly-flop of a bomb as it ever has. And that its taken THIS many drawn out, tediously long years just for it to reach THIS mildly less crappy (but still crappy nonetheless) of a plateau... that in itself is beyond pathetic, and this whole dub has been a 20 year long exercise in continually polishing and spit-shining a turd.

And no, none of this is or has been me trying to "bait" anyone here... I don't do "baiting". I NEVER HAVE done "baiting". Ever. Ever-ever. I'm not a fucking Chan troll or something. What I say above I mean as earnestly and sincerely as just my personal take on all this crap (after more than 26+ fucking years of DB fandom... egads).

I just don't fundamentally agree with a lot of the "mainstream" opinions of the current day fanbase: in large part because I've NEVER been at ANY point coming at this material from the same critical vantage point as most of them. That doesn't mean I "look down on" anyone over any of this crap (that would be beyond sad in and of itself): it simply means that my perspective is, and has long been, RADICALLY different from most who are currently active in Dragon Ball (and even general anime) fandom today.

So... does THAT work for you? Was THAT enough to sufficiently help explain and "justify" my opinion on this?

I'd disagree with your assessment since I didn't find Schemmel's anger in that scene to be strained- I felt he was just trying to show Goku's rage in the Kai scene: is it the best possible voice acting for the scene? Maybe not, but it's still perfectly serviceable compared to how stiff/wooden he was in the Z dub scene, and I'd say like many that the current cast has come quite a way from their Z days where ever other VA would confuse "grrr hurr grrr hurr" in fight scenes for acting making a noise every time in the background (most evident back in the 99 days when Season 3 aired with Piccolo & Frieza fighting). There's been quite a substantial improvement from Z to Kai for FUNimation's dub for the most part, IMO. Sure there are voices I'd love to see replaced (King Kai/Kaio and Recoome being the most "Why was this voice kept for this long?" being the two most prominent examples) still, but most of the FUNi dub cast has certainly come a long way from that period.

And if you think Dragonball has it bad in terms of voice acting and dubbing still due to the random line changes, again, I'll reiterate what many did with the TPCi Pokemon dubs of XY & SM. That crew has also had a long time on the Series (12 years now!) and yet...

- TPCi is replacing more of the Japanese music than the much maligned 4Kids ever did back in the day now, and the recent season of Sun & Moon's dub as DBFan_1991 stated is full of nothing but "Only 1-2 pieces of Japanese music kept per episode with the rest of the episode full of wall to wall dub music" episodes. Made even worse by the fact over 300+ dub music cues played in a single dub episode "Treasure Hunt-Akala Style," to boot, and the same 4 stock themes beaten into the ground by the dubbers (there's a terrible ripoff of the 60s Batman theme that I've heard from people say has played over 100 times in only 60 episodes thus far).

- TPCi's voice acting has also only gotten worse over the last 12 years, it hasn't even improved marginally at best, unlike FUNi's dub cast for DB. Sarah Natochenny ("new" dub Ash) has her Ash nowadays sounding like an effeminate, raspy teenage girl, Bill Rogers made Brock sound like an elderly man with severe constipation issues (and I'll say had nothing on his predecessor Eric Stuart, even at his worst), and the list goes on & on with everything James Cathcart does (also being the current dub's script writer the past 12 years) being unfitting (James sounding like an elderly man with sinus issues, Meowth having a very deep, gruff voice, Professor Oak with a young mad scientist like voice, etc.)

- They still visually edit the dub, turning wine cups into orange juice glasses, calling apples "berries," turning beer into green acid rather than even water, etc. They also still rewrite the scripts quite a bit, especially turning the Team Rocket Trio into nothing more than a bunch of alliterating, rhyming, slang-spouting caricatures that would even make Dr. Seuss roll over in his grave (examples: "Dig it, jack, "Lugs," "Mugs," "Primo Pokemon pilfered prodigiously," etc.).

- And on top of all of this, TPCi won't even use the Japanese intros, even dubbed into English, TPCi keep making shorter and shorter dub opening themes, the last one is only 28 seconds long on a network where they are allowed to produce 1 min long intros themselves (as is evident with the dubs of Beyblade Burst & Yokai Watch that air on the same station Disney XD in the United States).

Contrast this with the FUNimation dubs of Kai & Super which at least try to keep the script mostly accurate, bothers to at least keep the Japanese intro but have an English dub singer do the vocals + singing for it, keep all the Japanese music, and don't edit things out visually speaking, and at worst, DB has gotten off extremely well when compared to the likes of Pokemon in terms of quality, regardless of thoughts on the voice acting (which I don't doubt your right to criticize, but just reminding you it could be much worse).

(P.S. Before you say Pokemon or Shadow the Hedgehog etc. shouldn't be used as a measure of proper voice acting or dub quality seeing as they're targeted towards kids, Dragonball is also technically targeted towards only a slightly older demographic as well, and it obviously isn't one of the only things I watched: I've watched Baccano, Blue Gender, Death Note, Seinfeld, The Dark Knight, The Godfather, Forrest Gump, Black Lagoon, Gundam Wing, Throne of Blood, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, among a host of others so my taste like gokaiblue's isn't limited to kids' programming either).