Bullza wrote:I know about the genre, I know about the old Chinese movies were they fly around and fire energy blasts. Again I never said that Dragon Ball Z invented any of this stuff and that Yu Yu Hakusho stole all of its creations for itself.
You actually DID say all that.
Bullza wrote:Well there you go, that's what I was getting at. There's other series like Dragon Ball, Naruto or Bleach for example but Yu Yu Hakusho was at the same time.
It began as a comedy ghost story at a time when Dragon Ball Z was at its peak from all these flashy battles and transformations in the Namek saga and then suddenly Yu Yu Hakusho became a completely different series altogether.
The energy attacks, Martial Arts Tournaments, Hiei the villain turned anti-hero, the demons, transformations, the main character having hidden power due to his unknown heritage, Toguro getting stronger by using a certain percentage of his power just like Frieza, the style of fights that they had, the Earth shaking as they powered up, all the talk of power levels and being shocked over hearing them.
Yeah I sure he was inspired, probably had something to do with how many millions of copies Dragon Ball was selling.
As part of your spiel on how YYH was completely copying DB/Z, you clearly listed:
- Energy attacks
- Martial arts tournaments
- Villains turned anti-hero
- Demons
- Transformations
- Main character having a hidden power and unknown heritage
- Getting stronger by using a certain percentage of power
- The style of fights
- The Earth shaking as characters power up
- And "all the talk of power levels and being shocked over hearing them".
EVERY. SINGLE. LAST. ONE. Of these things you listed (except for the very last) as being proof that "YYH ripped off DB/Z" are in fact super common and ubiquitous Wuxia tropes, many of which are THOUSANDS of years old and date back to very ancient myths and legends, and many of the others dating back to genuine culturally significant literary classics, and ALL of which have in the years since been used ad nauseam across COUNTLESS modern TV, film, and comic book media: many predating Dragon Ball by DECADES, and many of them either
just as or
vastly more popular and culturally iconic than DB. The Legend of Madame White Snake, Journey to the West, The Water Margin, The Slave of Kunlun, Laughing in the Wind, Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils, Legend of the Condor Heroes, Buddha's Palm, The Magic Blade, and on and on and on and on down an almost
bottomless list.
If you knew otherwise the whole time, you wouldn't have gone down that whole very specific list just now. You cannot just say all that in the context of a discussion about YYH supposedly ripping off everything it does from DB/Z and then backpedal out of it now when you're busted and called out on it and say "Yeah yeah, I knew about all that Chinese Wuxia stuff already" after a rant like that.
I'm sorry, but based on everything you've said (both here and in other threads) you clearly haven't read hardly a single word that either myself or anyone else on this forum has said (at great length and detail;
right down to the "characters gauging their Ki power in percentages" cliche) about this topic, and are basically just speaking blindly off of popular (and incorrect) fandom stereotypes about these series; incorrect stereotypes that were also largely the product of mass fandom-wide ignorance about these (VERY massive and globally popular) genres of martial arts fantasy media that extend well outside the boundaries of Japanese Shonen manga/anime.
The one exception among those items you listed is the Power Levels thing. But that's totally irrelevant anyways, because I'm assuming you're talking about the "Class" ranking system in YYH: that was a plot point that is of INCREDIBLY little significance to YYH, and isn't introduced into the series until roughly near the very last story arc. Its of
greatly less significance to YYH than Battle Powers/Power Levels were to DB/Z: and DB/Z's Power Levels THEMSELVES are also an INCREDIBLY minor, small detail in DB that is of MUCH less significance to the series than most (largely Western) fans have built them up in their heads to be over the years.
Certainly back during Dragon Ball's original Japanese run, Power Levels were almost NEVER discussed or focused on by most of fandom. Almost
no one back then had paid much mind to them, as they're a ridiculously tiny story detail that crops up for only two story arcs (Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs), serve a specific purpose (to be unreliable and give the heroes a slight edge on the villains who otherwise greatly outmatch them), and then are promptly dropped and forgotten about from then on going forward. Hell, they weren't even drudged back up (to any significant degree at least) for the Resurrection F movie/arc of Super, to show how little fucks both Toriyama and the Japanese fanbase at large apparently gives about the concept.
The FUNimation dub is in fact a LOT of the reason for why Power Levels became such a huge talking point within fandom in the first place: due to the dub both starting at the Saiya-jin arc, as well as spending its first bunch of years on air endlessly cycling through the only two arcs (Saiya-jin and Freeza) that Power Levels ever appear and are relevant in. This unnaturally built up the concept in the heads of Western/English speaking fans, and it grew to metastasize into the inseparable meme that it now is today. FUNimation further didn't help matters by latching onto this themselves, and continuing to add in references to Power Levels in later DBZ arcs (and even in DB Super years later!) that were of course
never there in the original scripts (because why the hell would they be?).
Power Levels were NEVER an "iconic" or "notable" part of the series during its original Japanese run: outside of the two arcs of the series they appeared in (and their related movies), they'd get referenced in a few video games and guidebooks, and that was basically the extent of it. Almost no one actually following the series in its original run gave the slightest two shits about them: not until the dub first started and went on to repeat the first two Z arcs endlessly for several years before moving on.
Thus, YYH had effectively ZERO reason to copy or rip off that particular detail from DB/Z: as I said, the appearance of the Class ranking system for Demons in YYH is an even SMALLER and LESS SIGNIFICANT detail in that series than Power Levels (which were pretty insignificant themselves) were in DB/Z, and any similarities the two might share (and they REALLY don't share any at all really when you get right down to it) is of course almost undoubtedly 100% coincidental.
Apart from that: everything, literally E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G else that you've been going on about in this thread (Ki attacks, flying, superhuman speed and strength, measuring one's Ki in percentages, fighting with demons, martial arts tournament storylines, literal Earth shaking Ki aura powerups, etc.) are ALL absolutely cliched and ubiquitously common stereotypes that help define a whole entire
genre that LONG predates Dragon Ball: a genre that was a culturally iconic cliche of itself long, loooooong before DB ever came along... by COUNTLESS decades just within modern day film/television/comic book media, nevermind in the literally MILLENNIA old ancient writings and folkloric myths that originally coined them first.
YYH would undoubtedly still exist almost exactly the way it did (like SO very many countless other Wuxia stories and franchises would've) in a world where Dragon Ball was never created. The main thing that would likely be different without DB's influence would be its depiction of the Buddhist afterlife, since as I said, the "Buddhist afterlife as a modern Japanese office" gimmick is the main, primary thing that YYH had clearly copied straight from Dragon Ball that was legitimately unique to it. Most everything else... not so much at all.
Bullza wrote:If it such a common thing then again, name some other popular Japanese manga that do this as well.
This one for starters:
Pre-dates Dragon Ball by almost a year, and was already an instantly iconic and popular phenomenon throughout Japan well long before Dragon Ball first caught on. Indeed while DB took some time at first to find its footing and its popularity, Fist of the North Star came out the gate swinging as an instant hit, and one that still has a big name legacy in manga and anime that lingers on to this very day, standing shoulder to shoulder in Shonen Jump notoriety and iconography alongside Dragon Ball, Saint Seiya, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and even the "Big Three" of Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece.
Among other things, it contains:
- An entire fantasy world of superhumanly strong martial artists (displaced within a Mad Max-like post-nuclear war setting, which is Fist of the North Star's main unique and distinctive gimmick) aligned with a wide variety of martial arts schools, clans, and factions, all engaged in complex and bitter rivalries and feuds with one another
- A seemingly unbeatable main character (who comes from a special bloodline/lineage) whose entire life is singularly dedicated to wandering the globe and constantly training to perfect his martial arts skills and seeking out more challenging, stronger opponents to pit himself against and push past his own limits
- Taoist martial arts displays of superhuman strength, speed, stamina, and endurance, as well as explosive Ki blasts, Ki auras that shake the heavens and ravage entire cities and countrysides just by characters flaring them and powering up, etc.
- An ever escalating series of increasingly powerful and seemingly invincible opponents for the main character to climb up like a ladder as he continues to train and improve his power and abilities as the series progresses; some of which that are clearly something not-quite-human
- A gigantic repertoire of unique signature superpowered martial arts techniques that all of the characters demonstrate (complete with shouted attack names) including many that various characters must learn and master for themselves as the story progresses; one of which is even a technique called Muso Tensei, where the user achieves a perfect state of empty-minded calmness or "nothingness", allowing them to instantly anticipate, react to, and counter virtually
any movement their opponent makes, no matter how quick or subtle (
hmmmmm...)
- Villains who eventually become allies to the hero, and vice versa (allies of the hero who betray him and turn villainous)
- And yes, even some characters shouting off the level of their Ki strength via percentages (complete with "powering up" via massive Ki auras and the landscape turning
There's also this:
Kujaku Ou aka The Peacock King. A Japanese martial arts fantasy/Wuxia manga (albeit Seinen rather than Shonen) that began only a year after Dragon Ball did (when it was still in the Pilaf arc). Kujaku Ou isn't just a Wuxia/martial arts fantasy manga, its also one that's within the very same paranormal/horror subgenre of Wuxia than YYH also occupies, at it centers around a Buddhist warrior monk who uses his Ki-powered supernatural martial arts skills to work as a ghost hunter/demonic exorcist for hire (working on behalf of a mysterious religious organization). A Ki blast wielding superhuman martial artist who trains himself to hunt Eastern demons and spirits in martial arts/paranormal horror stories? Where have we come across THAT concept before?
Kujaku Ou not only includes Ki blasts, powerful auras, flying around at super speed, training to grow stronger, and all that jazz, you also have demons, monsters, traveling between the living world and the spirit/demon world, etc. Thus it not only began barely a blip after DB started, it also WELL long predates YYH by a good several years.
Oh, and get this: Kujaku Ou started out as a fairly episodic "monster/case of the week" format, before it eventually grew into a more epic, serialized saga with overarching story arcs (or rather "Sagas" maybe...?) and big villains. Wait, so its a supernatural/paranormal/demonic-themed martial arts fighting series with Ki attacks and flying around and demon hunting that started out as something different before it got more popular and gradually evolved into something else? And during a time where Yu Yu Hakusho was YEARS away, and Dragon Ball still had Goku and Bulma running around chasing Pilaf?
And yes, while Kujaku Ou is indeed an obscurity to Western fans today, it was certainly VERY popular and successful back during its day: it having lasted 17 volumes for its main series, then spawning an additional 11 volumes for its sequel series that followed immediately afterwards, an OVA series (directed by none other than the legendary Rintaro, of Galaxy Express fame, and which got a U.S. release), a bunch of video games (several of which also got a U.S. release), and two live action movies of
substantially bigger budget and star-powered notoriety (in Hong Kong terms anyway) than the low-grade, basement-quality cheapies that Dragon Ball had originally gotten back in the day.
Oh and then there's ALSO....
Osu!! Karate Bu. Another epic long Seinen fighting manga: this time one that started out as a lighthearted comedic spoof of Delinquent/Bosozoku/Japanese Street Gang manga, before it eventually, gradually gave way into becoming focused around the main character's increasingly supernaturally Ki-powered martial arts training and gigantic, epic, city-devastating feuds and rivalries with increasingly stronger and more powerful arc villains, and all sorts of other storylines and concepts culled directly from ancient Chinese legend more so than Japanese punks and street gangs.
And indeed, the story and characters get EXTREMELY over the top godlike powerful in their Ki cultivating/manipulation and martial arts strength:
And it started in... also 1985. Again, when the DB manga was still in its Pilaf arc. And OKB first began its turn into serious/fantasy-fueled martial arts and arc-based fighting around its "Three Pillars of Kobe" arc circa Volume 7 or so... which was in 1987. YEARS before either Raditz OR Piccolo ever came a knocking over on Toriyama's end. Hell, DB was just about wrapping up the Baba storyline and just barely starting into the 22nd Budokai.
So not only do we have another example of a long-running martial arts fantasy-themed manga series that started out as something lighter, episodic, and comedic before it gradually evolved and changed into a serious, hyper-violent, Wuxia/Ki-fueled martial arts epic with arc-based villains and rivalries and fantasy martial arts fights using Taoist Ki attacks that leave mass destruction in their wake... we also have one - again that predates Yu Yu Hakusho by YEARS - that started out focused primarily on Japanese delinquents and street toughs in its earlier volumes before more and more increasingly Chinese martial arts fantasy elements began to creep in.
Osu!! Karate Bu was also a very popular, long running manga series in its day that lasted a whopping 43 volumes (one year and one volume longer than DB did), despite being a barely heard of obscurity today.
I mean its almost like ALL of this stuff already had a popular precedence and context that ISN'T really dependent on Dragon Ball AT ALL or something crazy like that.
Bullza wrote:I never said Dragon Ball did it first. It didn't but it was the first major manga of its kind that had that kind of style and popularity
Not only is Dragon Ball not the first martial arts fantasy/Wuxia fighting series in Japanese manga in general, not only is it not the first
successful and popular/iconic Wuxia fighting series in Japanese manga, not only is it not the first Wuxia
Shonen (popular or otherwise) manga, its not even the first Wuxia manga to grace (and become mega-popular within)
Weekly Shonen Jump specifically.