Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

[emperior]

I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, Saiyan Beyond God is a state where Goku and Vegeta still hadn’t learned how to not leak their ki (hence why they could be sensed) and that later on they fully grasp how to more efficiently control their godly ki, thus achieving SSG (which is, basically, the mastered form of their SbG state).
Can this make sense?

Yeah, it's basically the "Two Bases" hypothesis: SbG as incomplete SSG.
It causes a number of issues, though.

In the end, the only real question is: was U6 Tournament Base Cabba as strong as RoF Final Form Freeza?

I don’t think he was, because Vegeta went Super Saiyan right there and if he was fighting in his SbG state then he would have gone Blue instead (as it is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with SSG power, so if Vegeta was using his SSG power/SbG he wouldn’t have been able to turn into a normal Super Saiyan without getting weaker in the process).

[Tectorman]

Well Saiyan Beyond God wasn't a thing in the RoF arc either. Everyone can sense Goku when he is fighting Freeza, and then when he went SSB they explicitly comment about how they could no longer sense him. So it's clear in the scene that he wasnt using God Ki prior to turning SSB, so this doesn't really hold up.

Again, that is only an issue as long as we're defining Saiyan Beyond God as a state that has both God Ki's power AND God Ki's undetectability feature. But we're not. Saiyan Beyond God is a state at the same general level of the Gods, just like the "Super Saiyan Beyond God" (or whatever name you'd prefer) that Goku used against Beerus at the end of BoG. And that form was explicitly sense-able by non-Gods, despite being as powerful as SSJG. I don't know why it's so inconceivable that Saiyan Beyond God could exist WITHOUT the "undetectability by non-Gods" feature, especially when we've already seen precisely that in a similar form.

You keep lumping Saiyan Beyond God and what we saw with Goku against Beerus, together. They are completely different and not especially related. Saiyan Beyond God was achieved by training with Whis, and in the movie continuity, is able to use God Ki in their Base form. It is using "Poiwer of a God/God-like power without changing form", obviously referring to God Ki. Then in the actual movie, there's no mention that they were no longer able to sense Goku, because it was apparent that they were NEVER able to sense Goku. They never sensed him during the entire movie. (Although they didn't explicitly state that they couldn't.) There isn't some God Ki that is undetectable and some that is just really strong or something. You are either using God Ki, or you aren't. In the actual Super anime, they can sense him in Base, and then when he starts using SSB, they can no longer sense him. It is very clear. There isn't some strange distinction where some God Ki is undetectable and some isn't. Goku adapted to, by experiencing, the Super Saiyan God power, but was still a normal Super Saiyan with no God Ki. He had no God Ki, so he could still be sensed. It is not at all similar to Saiyan Beyond God.

Okay, where are you getting "Saiyan Beyond God begins in RoF through their training with Whis and is unrelated to what we saw in BoG"? And I don't mean the name (after all, Gohan was using SSJ2 against Cell long before Goku named it "SSJ2" in the Buu Saga). I keep lumping those two together because I've never seen any cause to do otherwise. Goku fought well against Beerus in what looked like Base in BoG; the only change from RoF is that this got a proper name (before which, I was just calling it "God-Remnant Saiyan" along with "God-Remnant Super Saiyan"). Though, yes, he probably also got stronger.

Also, I consider it a reach to say that the characters in the movie not having specifically stated whether they could sense Goku prior to his transformation to SSB is of any significance. Lots of things happen without explicit character commentary (outside of Hunter X Hunter, that is). The reason they never mentioned that they couldn't sense Goku prior to SSB could just as easily be because it isn't true, because they could still sense him, meaning that SbG doesn't have an unsense-ability feature, despite your insistence to the contrary. And the reason they never react to the renewal of his unsense-ability that came with the SSB transformation is because, in the movie continuity, he had already demonstrated the ability to go from sense-ability to unsense-ability already (his last gasp effort as a SSG at the very end of his fight with Beerus), so it wasn't anything new or worth commenting on. He went from normal to Blue, where it was normal to Red before, but the unsense-ability thing is already old hat. It'd be like Nappa suddenly remarking that he can fly.

In contrast, the anime continuity never had him go back to SSG during that fight. After falling out of SSG, he became and stayed sense-able. The return of this unsense-ability feature with SSB in the anime continuity, then, would be worthy of remark.

And why am I only either using God Ki (with its unsense-ability) or not at all? Why can't I be using God Ki not at all, OR using my normal power but adapted by my use of SSG (as you yourself credit Goku with doing), which I don't see any reason to not also characterize as "the power of God Ki but not also its unsense-ability", OR using God Ki (power and unsense-ability)?

The anime itself is what suggests that this is what's happening. In the anime, Goku in what looks like Base can fight evenly with Final Form Frieza. First Form Frieza was characterized as beyond Gohan's abilities. It's not until Gohan trains with Piccolo for the ToP that he reattains the power he had during the Buu Saga. Yet, prior to this, he was able to push Goku to use SSJ in a sparring match where both of them were getting caught up in the fight.

"Goku SbG/God-Remnant Saiyan/'his normal power but adapted by his use of SSG'/pick-a-name > Final Form Frieza > First Form Frieza > SSJ Gohan > Goku Base" makes sense. "SSJ Gohan > Goku > Final Form Frieza > First Form Frieza > SSJ Gohan" doesn't.

[Dagon]

But isn't what I've bolded above evidence in support of a Saiyan Beyond God form/state/transformation/ability/pick-a-name?

More like people just misinterpreted what the original promo material meant. Could also be that Toei hadn't decided exactly how they'd handle the Saiyans' new forms but now the previous material has been overwritten. You can still look at that old material and view it as I have described.

When they use God ki without turning SSJ, they become SSJG form. Their black haired and yellow haired forms are all mortal ki, in every case. They simply got so strong in base form that they make SSJ3 Gotenks look like a chump. The red and blue haired forms are the forms with god ki.
"Saiyan Beyond God" as an individual form was info taken in the wrong way because DB fans love love looove to speculate about how many more forms a saiyan will get. The way I see it, Saiyan Beyond God is describing a person, not a form. It is describing how Goku and Vegeta surpassed the ritual-SSJG with their mortal ki. Then, when they turn on their god ki(which is their post-ritual SSJG form) and combine it with SSJ's transformation multiplier, they become SSJ Blue.

[Tectorman]

More like people just misinterpreted what the original promo material meant. Could also be that Toei hadn't decided exactly how they'd handle the Saiyans' new forms but now the previous material has been overwritten. You can still look at that old material and view it as I have described.

When they use God ki without turning SSJ, they become SSJG form. Their black haired and yellow haired forms are all mortal ki, in every case. They simply got so strong in base form that they make SSJ3 Gotenks look like a chump. The red and blue haired forms are the forms with god ki.
"Saiyan Beyond God" as an individual form was info taken in the wrong way because DB fans love love looove to speculate about how many more forms a saiyan will get. The way I see it, Saiyan Beyond God is describing a person, not a form. It is describing how Goku and Vegeta surpassed the ritual-SSJG with their mortal ki. Then, when they turn on their god ki(which is their post-ritual SSJG form) and combine it with SSJ's transformation multiplier, they become SSJ Blue.

In my post right above yours where I'm responding to PFM18, I describe a discrepancy involving Goku and Gohan that is solved by assuming a normal Base and one using God Ki (or "normal Ki but way more powerful due to having adapted to SSG", since I consider that to be a distinction without a difference). In my first post in this thread, I also outline why the U6 tournament fight with Hit either requires two Bases or two SSBs. So if we may not account for these with a normal Base and a God Ki Base (or if you prefer, a normal Base and a Base with mortal Ki adapted to God Ki's power, which is functionally the exact same thing), then how do we account for these?

[Dagon]

In my post right above yours where I'm responding to PFM18, I describe a discrepancy involving Goku and Gohan that is solved by assuming a normal Base and one using God Ki (or "normal Ki but way more powerful due to having adapted to SSG", since I consider that to be a distinction without a difference). In my first post in this thread, I also outline why the U6 tournament fight with Hit either requires two Bases or two SSBs. So if we may not account for these with a normal Base and a God Ki Base (or if you prefer, a normal Base and a Base with mortal Ki adapted to God Ki's power, which is functionally the exact same thing), then how do we account for these?

Ok let's try to break this down as much as we can.

Not how I remember it.

When the BoG movie came out, the prevailing impression was that Goku went from "Base-SSJ-SSJ2-SSJ3" to "Really, really, really, really powerful Base (not yet given the moniker "Saiyan Beyond God" but nevertheless a Base as strong as a significant portion of SSJG's power)-Really, really, really, really powerful SSJ-SSJ2 & SSJ3 (still technically there but providing so little benefit compared to their drawbacks as to be pointless)-SSJG (maybe; it was supposed to only be attainable via the ritual but he went back to that form at the very end of the fight when he negated Beerus's last energy blast). THIS is where the notion of a Base gaining a power boost vastly beyond anything before came from, though it was never thought of to have God Ki's undetectability feature.

Yeah I remember the community coming to that conclusion. It was/is the most logical thing based on what we had at the time.

Then, RoF the movie came out and the prevailing understanding was that Goku and Vegeta had "Really, really, really, really powerful Base (the moniker "Saiyan Beyond God" may have originated here, but the state of power itself is just a continuation of what BoG had already shown us)-SSJ, SSJ2, & (in Goku's case) SSJ3 (presumably still there, just no longer useful)-SSJG (still iffy and subject to the same "maybe" as was at the end of BoG)-SSGSS".

Then the anime starts and mostly keeps to the script at the beginning (Goku never uses SSJG one last time, and the only time we see him demonstrate significantly improved power in Base is that last punch to negate Beerus's last energy blast). Then the U6 tournament shows up and the lower forms show up again. Vegeta demonstrates a clear difference in power between Base and SSJ and between SSJ and the newly re-named SSB.

Remember that in the anime Copy-Vegeta has all of Vegeta's ki, and he can tank SSJ3 Gotenks. That is an indicator of a huge increase because previously Gotenks was impressive compared to Goku and Vegeta.

On the other hand, the anime expressly tells us that Hit doesn't power up during his entire fight with Goku. He improves his Time Skip and modifies his ready stance, but doesn't actually increase his overall strength. He even acts like he's powering up just to turn around and reveal that it was all for show.

And against that opponent that the show firmly establishes to be a consistent barometer of power, Goku fights in Base and as a SSB and with SSBKKx10. The last time we saw something like this was when Goku fought Beerus as a SSJG AND in what looked like Base AND in what looked like SSJ, while not noticing a difference in performance until Beerus told him he hadn't been a SSJG for a while.

Ergo, SSB isn't all that different from Base.

Ok when I first read your post, I got up to this last point and I could not for the life of me figure out how you would believe base and SSJB are similar in power. Then I saw the reference to Hit not powering up. So you think Hit would use the same amount of power throughout his entire fight with Goku? It would be quite reasonable to believe Hit would ramp up his effort as the battle goes on. He would know base Goku would take less energy/effort to defeat than SSJ Goku based on the foreknowledge of having seen the Saiyans fight. The bulk of the first portion of the fight is Goku and Hit figuring each other out, with Hit evolving his stance as Goku both adapts to the time skip and proceeds to transform. On top of that, Hit is trying not to kill Goku, and despite the serious hits, Goku is too stubborn to stay down. A little more to it than just power levels here. If Hit were allowed to kill, Goku would lose from the first attack. The fight dragged on because Hit is holding back to protect Goku's life, up until the end when Goku asks to allow hit to kill. By then, Goku was in SSJB Kaio-Ken and could thus take Hit's full force.

Except Vegeta just demonstrated a vast difference between SSB and Base to Cabba. THAT, the anime, is where the insistence that Saiyan Beyond God remained a thing as well as the Two-Base Theory come from. Because we're either saying there's one Base and two SSBs (the really powerful one Vegeta used and the barely different one Goku used or we're saying there's one SSB and two Bases (one way below as per Vegeta's demonstration to Cabba and one up there with SSB as per Goku's fight with Hit). Later episodes would corroborate this: the Copy-Vegeta fight, Goku's fight with Monaka-Beerus, Goku Black versus SSJ2 Goku, SSJ Gohan sparring with SSJ Goku despite a later episode confirming that Gohan hasn't surpassed his Ultimate power the entire series. But even when they didn't, why would that imply any kind of retcon rather than just characterizing SbG as going from "there and being used" to "there but no longer being used"?

One thing we have to remember is that the anime has numerous writers, so one episode's supposed power scaling according to viewer interpretation may appear vastly different from another episode. This is directly analogous to how in Marvel and DC comics, there are numerous inconsistent feats because not every writer sifts through decades of comics to ensure the feats they write are entirely consistent. It would be the same case here: Some episode writers are not checking their scaling against other writers' work. I'd say this would go double for "filler-ish" episodes where we can take certain scenes with a grain of salt.

Okay, where are you getting "Saiyan Beyond God begins in RoF through their training with Whis and is unrelated to what we saw in BoG"? And I don't mean the name (after all, Gohan was using SSJ2 against Cell long before Goku named it "SSJ2" in the Buu Saga). I keep lumping those two together because I've never seen any cause to do otherwise. Goku fought well against Beerus in what looked like Base in BoG; the only change from RoF is that this got a proper name (before which, I was just calling it "God-Remnant Saiyan" along with "God-Remnant Super Saiyan"). Though, yes, he probably also got stronger.

Also, I consider it a reach to say that the characters in the movie not having specifically stated whether they could sense Goku prior to his transformation to SSB is of any significance. Lots of things happen without explicit character commentary (outside of Hunter X Hunter, that is). The reason they never mentioned that they couldn't sense Goku prior to SSB could just as easily be because it isn't true, because they could still sense him, meaning that SbG doesn't have an unsense-ability feature, despite your insistence to the contrary. And the reason they never react to the renewal of his unsense-ability that came with the SSB transformation is because, in the movie continuity, he had already demonstrated the ability to go from sense-ability to unsense-ability already (his last gasp effort as a SSG at the very end of his fight with Beerus), so it wasn't anything new or worth commenting on. He went from normal to Blue, where it was normal to Red before, but the unsense-ability thing is already old hat. It'd be like Nappa suddenly remarking that he can fly.

In contrast, the anime continuity never had him go back to SSG during that fight. After falling out of SSG, he became and stayed sense-able. The return of this unsense-ability feature with SSB in the anime continuity, then, would be worthy of remark.

Specifically about the sense-ability point, that's a decent point. However, we still aren't given any narrative comments or character statements saying base Goku can mix his god ki to some partial mortal-partial god ki mix. In lieu of that, we shouldn't assume such a thing. Like I said before, DB Super anime is more inconsistent than other DB versions(maybe even more inconsistent than GT), so we must be careful to take certain things with a grain of salt.

And why am I only either using God Ki (with its unsense-ability) or not at all? Why can't I be using God Ki not at all, OR using my normal power but adapted by my use of SSG (as you yourself credit Goku with doing), which I don't see any reason to not also characterize as "the power of God Ki but not also its unsense-ability", OR using God Ki (power and unsense-ability)?

We take the stance of either God ki full off or fully on and no in-between because there is not an outright character statement specifically stating exactly such a thing. For example, we know Goku's body adapted to the SSJG power and that power became Goku's own mortal ki because we have characters stating that exact thing. What we don't have is something like Goku saying "See this, Freeza? I can use the ki of the gods in just my normal form, without transforming." Without a statement stating in no uncertain terms something to that effect, we should not assume such.

In contrast, the anime continuity never had him go back to SSG during that fight. After falling out of SSG, he became and stayed sense-able. The return of this unsense-ability feature with SSB in the anime continuity, then, would be worthy of remark.
The anime itself is what suggests that this is what's happening. In the anime, Goku in what looks like Base can fight evenly with Final Form Frieza. First Form Frieza was characterized as beyond Gohan's abilities. It's not until Gohan trains with Piccolo for the ToP that he reattains the power he had during the Buu Saga. Yet, prior to this, he was able to push Goku to use SSJ in a sparring match where both of them were getting caught up in the fight.

The out-of-universe explanation is "different writers, inconsistent feats from writers not checking each other's work, and lax guidelines for filler episodes." In-universe we'd have to say that the episode where Goku spars with Gohan narratively has Goku established to be rusty, and he hasn't had a good fight in a long time. So, he would purposely fight on Gohan's level just to have fun and get his skills polished again. If Goku wanted to just defeat Gohan, he'd certainly be able to. Now before you rebut that 'If Goku was so strong even in base then why not just fight Gohan in base at an equal power level,' for one, Goku can suppress in any form, and two: 6 words: Krillin pushing back SSJB Goku's kamehameha.
You don't think Krillin is on SSJB Goku's level, do you? Exactly. Goku uses varying power levels in different forms for different people for different reasons. Ultimately the reason is "plot" but in-universe Goku has reasons not to simply curb-stomp all his friends into the dirt with one hit.

"Goku SbG/God-Remnant Saiyan/'his normal power but adapted by his use of SSG'/pick-a-name > Final Form Frieza > First Form Frieza > SSJ Gohan > Goku Base" makes sense. "SSJ Gohan > Goku > Final Form Frieza > First Form Frieza > SSJ Gohan" doesn't.

Well, if we want to get really nitpicky, we could say Gohan had gotten that much stronger in-between those episodes. He did resume his training after the RoF arc after all. Personally I'd say Goku was holding back against Gohan to re-polish his own skills, and to have a father-son-SSJ-bro moment.

Does this suffice for you? Let me know if there's anything that isn't clear.

[Tectorman]

In my post right above yours where I'm responding to PFM18, I describe a discrepancy involving Goku and Gohan that is solved by assuming a normal Base and one using God Ki (or "normal Ki but way more powerful due to having adapted to SSG", since I consider that to be a distinction without a difference). In my first post in this thread, I also outline why the U6 tournament fight with Hit either requires two Bases or two SSBs. So if we may not account for these with a normal Base and a God Ki Base (or if you prefer, a normal Base and a Base with mortal Ki adapted to God Ki's power, which is functionally the exact same thing), then how do we account for these?

Ok let's try to break this down as much as we can.

Sure, and thank you for taking the time to go through all this.

Not how I remember it.

When the BoG movie came out, the prevailing impression was that Goku went from "Base-SSJ-SSJ2-SSJ3" to "Really, really, really, really powerful Base (not yet given the moniker "Saiyan Beyond God" but nevertheless a Base as strong as a significant portion of SSJG's power)-Really, really, really, really powerful SSJ-SSJ2 & SSJ3 (still technically there but providing so little benefit compared to their drawbacks as to be pointless)-SSJG (maybe; it was supposed to only be attainable via the ritual but he went back to that form at the very end of the fight when he negated Beerus's last energy blast). THIS is where the notion of a Base gaining a power boost vastly beyond anything before came from, though it was never thought of to have God Ki's undetectability feature.

Yeah I remember the community coming to that conclusion. It was/is the most logical thing based on what we had at the time.

Okay, but it's important to note our takeaway is "Base Goku is now somewhere near 80% SSJG in power". The undetectability isn't a factor at all. It remains a nonfactor in RoF, and besides having a name, SbG is identical to what we saw last movie. At most, any description just confirms that Goku has SSJG's power in Base, something we already saw last movie. This may automatically include the undetectability or not, but it's not addressed either way, and so we have the same result under both interpretations. The series has Goku go undetectable with SSB, but the series also told us that SSJG-powerful SSJ Goku was also detectable. Ergo, SSJG power does not go hand in hand with undetectability, it never did, and from my perspective, you have to claim unfounded facts and ignore some of what we're told and shown to claim otherwise.

Then, RoF the movie came out and the prevailing understanding was that Goku and Vegeta had "Really, really, really, really powerful Base (the moniker "Saiyan Beyond God" may have originated here, but the state of power itself is just a continuation of what BoG had already shown us)-SSJ, SSJ2, & (in Goku's case) SSJ3 (presumably still there, just no longer useful)-SSJG (still iffy and subject to the same "maybe" as was at the end of BoG)-SSGSS".

Then the anime starts and mostly keeps to the script at the beginning (Goku never uses SSJG one last time, and the only time we see him demonstrate significantly improved power in Base is that last punch to negate Beerus's last energy blast). Then the U6 tournament shows up and the lower forms show up again. Vegeta demonstrates a clear difference in power between Base and SSJ and between SSJ and the newly re-named SSB.

Remember that in the anime Copy-Vegeta has all of Vegeta's ki, and he can tank SSJ3 Gotenks. That is an indicator of a huge increase because previously Gotenks was impressive compared to Goku and Vegeta.

Okay, yeah, that's another indicator, and to me, it reinforces 1) that Goku and Vegeta are largely even with each other and the capabilities of one can fairly represent the other and 2) that Vegeta at this point has essentially the same forms and states as Goku (barring SSJ3 and the Kaioken) despite achieving it all (God Ki, SbG/his ability to fight at Godly levels in Base, (maybe SSJG) and SSB) via training with Whis instead of the ritual.

On the other hand, the anime expressly tells us that Hit doesn't power up during his entire fight with Goku. He improves his Time Skip and modifies his ready stance, but doesn't actually increase his overall strength. He even acts like he's powering up just to turn around and reveal that it was all for show.

And against that opponent that the show firmly establishes to be a consistent barometer of power, Goku fights in Base and as a SSB and with SSBKKx10. The last time we saw something like this was when Goku fought Beerus as a SSJG AND in what looked like Base AND in what looked like SSJ, while not noticing a difference in performance until Beerus told him he hadn't been a SSJG for a while.

Ergo, SSB isn't all that different from Base.

Ok when I first read your post, I got up to this last point and I could not for the life of me figure out how you would believe base and SSJB are similar in power. Then I saw the reference to Hit not powering up. So you think Hit would use the same amount of power throughout his entire fight with Goku? It would be quite reasonable to believe Hit would ramp up his effort as the battle goes on. He would know base Goku would take less energy/effort to defeat than SSJ Goku based on the foreknowledge of having seen the Saiyans fight. The bulk of the first portion of the fight is Goku and Hit figuring each other out, with Hit evolving his stance as Goku both adapts to the time skip and proceeds to transform. On top of that, Hit is trying not to kill Goku, and despite the serious hits, Goku is too stubborn to stay down. A little more to it than just power levels here. If Hit were allowed to kill, Goku would lose from the first attack. The fight dragged on because Hit is holding back to protect Goku's life, up until the end when Goku asks to allow hit to kill. By then, Goku was in SSJB Kaio-Ken and could thus take Hit's full force.

Hit specifically tells us he can't change his power level. He did show improvement in that fight, but it was through modifying his choice of stance, extending his Time Skip, and becoming more familiar with how Goku fights. But not his power level, because he straight up says so. We even see him appear to power up, only for the whole light show to be passed off as showmanship.

I'll emphasize that again: the anime went out of its way to show Hit look like he was powering up only to directly confirm that, not only was that not what he was doing then, but he can't power up, period. They didn't have to include that part of the fight at all, or if they did, they could have had Hit appear to power up and then confirm that he totally did power up, as it appeared (which is what the manga did). Hit can and did improve in other ways, but not his power. "Hit PL begin-fight" equals "Hit PL mid-fight" equals "Hit PL end-fight" (or if it did change, it was by decreasing due to Hit getting tired and taking damage, and in any case, was more than offset by the other ways he was improving).

So first: offense. As you say, Hit starts off holding back his more harmful attacks because he doesn't want to kill Goku and he isn't familiar enough with what Goku can endure to use all of his techniques, even the nonlethal ones. And as the fight progresses, he can use more harmful techniques which still won't accidentally kill Goku since Hit is more familiar with him by then. This has the same effect of Hit being able to keep up with Goku going to SSB and then SSBKKx10, despite the power-level aspect of his offensive power not increasing. So far, so good.

The same can apply to Hit's defensive capabilities. The power-level aspect of his defenses doesn't change, as per Hit's power level not changing. Also, unlike attacking, Hit would be putting all of his effort and employing every defensive technique at his disposal, since you're not really going to accidentally kill someone by dodging at your best ability. So that aspect of his defense doesn't change, either. What would change, though, is again his familiarity with how Goku fights. And in this manner, his ability to defend would go up to match SSB and SSBKKx10, despite his power level not changing.

Here's where it breaks down: when Goku actually lands a hit. When Hit's defenses fail to avoid or deflect a hit, the only thing remaining is his natural endurance, augmented by his unchanging power level. No amount of increasing familiarity with how Goku fights or stance changes or improved Time Skip is going to modify how well Hit takes a hit from Goku. Ergo, if Goku's successful hits in SSBKKx10 don't wreck Hit thousands of times more than Goku's successful hits in Base, the only conclusion, then, must be that there isn't altogether that much difference between the two, same as we saw when Goku went from 80% SSJG to "God-Remnant" Base to "God-Remnant" SSJ against Beerus in BoG.

Which is what we observe. Goku did land attacks on Hit while still in Base, so we have a picture of Hit's durability. Nothing about the rest of how Hit improves during this fight changes this. And despite that, when Goku later lands a series of SSBKKx10-level hits, this doesn't appear all that different from what he suffered from Goku's Base-level hits.

Except Vegeta just demonstrated a vast difference between SSB and Base to Cabba. THAT, the anime, is where the insistence that Saiyan Beyond God remained a thing as well as the Two-Base Theory come from. Because we're either saying there's one Base and two SSBs (the really powerful one Vegeta used and the barely different one Goku used or we're saying there's one SSB and two Bases (one way below as per Vegeta's demonstration to Cabba and one up there with SSB as per Goku's fight with Hit). Later episodes would corroborate this: the Copy-Vegeta fight, Goku's fight with Monaka-Beerus, Goku Black versus SSJ2 Goku, SSJ Gohan sparring with SSJ Goku despite a later episode confirming that Gohan hasn't surpassed his Ultimate power the entire series. But even when they didn't, why would that imply any kind of retcon rather than just characterizing SbG as going from "there and being used" to "there but no longer being used"?

One thing we have to remember is that the anime has numerous writers, so one episode's supposed power scaling according to viewer interpretation may appear vastly different from another episode. This is directly analogous to how in Marvel and DC comics, there are numerous inconsistent feats because not every writer sifts through decades of comics to ensure the feats they write are entirely consistent. It would be the same case here: Some episode writers are not checking their scaling against other writers' work. I'd say this would go double for "filler-ish" episodes where we can take certain scenes with a grain of salt.

This is probably going to short-circuit the rest of this, but I agree. The Two-Base Theory and the persistence of the belief in Saiyan Beyond God is an acknowledgement that the writers 1) changed paradigms mid-series and 2) aren't consistent (even once the new paradigm got established, the ToP had its own share of issues, especially once the U6 Saiyans got involved). No, neither SbG nor the two Bases are ever going to be acknowledged or addressed in-universe. Which is irrelevant, anyway. The point was always about having a model that allows the most material (movies and series, including "filler" episodes) to be true while avoiding as much rampant retconing based on assumption as possible. "SbG did exist and was used" until it "still existed but was no longer used" fits. "SbG doesn't exist now and never did before, just ignore what was established previously" doesn't.

Okay, where are you getting "Saiyan Beyond God begins in RoF through their training with Whis and is unrelated to what we saw in BoG"? And I don't mean the name (after all, Gohan was using SSJ2 against Cell long before Goku named it "SSJ2" in the Buu Saga). I keep lumping those two together because I've never seen any cause to do otherwise. Goku fought well against Beerus in what looked like Base in BoG; the only change from RoF is that this got a proper name (before which, I was just calling it "God-Remnant Saiyan" along with "God-Remnant Super Saiyan"). Though, yes, he probably also got stronger.

Also, I consider it a reach to say that the characters in the movie not having specifically stated whether they could sense Goku prior to his transformation to SSB is of any significance. Lots of things happen without explicit character commentary (outside of Hunter X Hunter, that is). The reason they never mentioned that they couldn't sense Goku prior to SSB could just as easily be because it isn't true, because they could still sense him, meaning that SbG doesn't have an unsense-ability feature, despite your insistence to the contrary. And the reason they never react to the renewal of his unsense-ability that came with the SSB transformation is because, in the movie continuity, he had already demonstrated the ability to go from sense-ability to unsense-ability already (his last gasp effort as a SSG at the very end of his fight with Beerus), so it wasn't anything new or worth commenting on. He went from normal to Blue, where it was normal to Red before, but the unsense-ability thing is already old hat. It'd be like Nappa suddenly remarking that he can fly.

In contrast, the anime continuity never had him go back to SSG during that fight. After falling out of SSG, he became and stayed sense-able. The return of this unsense-ability feature with SSB in the anime continuity, then, would be worthy of remark.

Specifically about the sense-ability point, that's a decent point. However, we still aren't given any narrative comments or character statements saying base Goku can mix his god ki to some partial mortal-partial god ki mix. In lieu of that, we shouldn't assume such a thing. Like I said before, DB Super anime is more inconsistent than other DB versions(maybe even more inconsistent than GT), so we must be careful to take certain things with a grain of salt.

Granted, but by that same token, we're never told that Saiyan Beyond God uses full-fledged God Ki or is substantively any different from the "God-Remnant" Base we saw him in while fighting against Beerus in BoG. Why aren't those (that SbG and/or BoG's "God-Remnant Base must be both God-powerful and God-undetectable) the assumptions that we shouldn't be making without direct evidence? Because the promotional material finally gave us a name?

We're never told in the RoF movie that he was undetected as a Saiyan Beyond God and just remained that way when he went to SSB, so why make that assumption? RoF in the series tells us he did go from detectable to undetectable, but if we were never told that undetectability is inherent to SbG, why take this as a sign that his detectability in Base MUST mean he wasn't an SbG? You're talking about not operating on facts not in evidence; that's what I'm doing.

And why am I only either using God Ki (with its unsense-ability) or not at all? Why can't I be using God Ki not at all, OR using my normal power but adapted by my use of SSG (as you yourself credit Goku with doing), which I don't see any reason to not also characterize as "the power of God Ki but not also its unsense-ability", OR using God Ki (power and unsense-ability)?

We take the stance of either God ki full off or fully on and no in-between because there is not an outright character statement specifically stating exactly such a thing. For example, we know Goku's body adapted to the SSJG power and that power became Goku's own mortal ki because we have characters stating that exact thing. What we don't have is something like Goku saying "See this, Freeza? I can use the ki of the gods in just my normal form, without transforming." Without a statement stating in no uncertain terms something to that effect, we should not assume such.

And as I said above, we also don't have a statement requiring God Ki power and God Ki undetectability to go hand in hand. Without such a statement, God Ki really exists in (to borrow a term from PBS Spacetime, which I've been binging recently) a superposition of states where it simultaneously requires those two parts to go hand in hand and doesn't require such a forced marriage. The series confirming that Goku was detectable prior to SSB collapses that superposition, but only as far as determining whether SbG is or isn't detectable. SbG even existing, on the other hand, was never dependent on that superposition resolving in only one way and not the other.

For example, I wasn't even aware that the audience might have even been meant to think of SbG as being undetectable prior to all these discussions here. It's something that could have been true, but to me, taking it as a given was always pulling a fact out of nowhere.

Accepting SbG and the Two-Base Theory requires allowing for an outcome that, while not proven, hasn't been disproven, either. Rejecting it, on the other hand, requires an in-universe statement to disprove one of the two outcomes, and such a statement isn't in there. So of those two assumptions, isn't the latter the greater reach, and therefore the more tenuous?

Though, yes, it would have been absurdly simple to find at least one place to interject a line explaining the whole thing.

In contrast, the anime continuity never had him go back to SSG during that fight. After falling out of SSG, he became and stayed sense-able. The return of this unsense-ability feature with SSB in the anime continuity, then, would be worthy of remark.
The anime itself is what suggests that this is what's happening. In the anime, Goku in what looks like Base can fight evenly with Final Form Frieza. First Form Frieza was characterized as beyond Gohan's abilities. It's not until Gohan trains with Piccolo for the ToP that he reattains the power he had during the Buu Saga. Yet, prior to this, he was able to push Goku to use SSJ in a sparring match where both of them were getting caught up in the fight.

The out-of-universe explanation is "different writers, inconsistent feats from writers not checking each other's work, and lax guidelines for filler episodes." In-universe we'd have to say that the episode where Goku spars with Gohan narratively has Goku established to be rusty, and he hasn't had a good fight in a long time. So, he would purposely fight on Gohan's level just to have fun and get his skills polished again. If Goku wanted to just defeat Gohan, he'd certainly be able to. Now before you rebut that 'If Goku was so strong even in base then why not just fight Gohan in base at an equal power level,' for one, Goku can suppress in any form, and two: 6 words: Krillin pushing back SSJB Goku's kamehameha.
You don't think Krillin is on SSJB Goku's level, do you? Exactly. Goku uses varying power levels in different forms for different people for different reasons. Ultimately the reason is "plot" but in-universe Goku has reasons not to simply curb-stomp all his friends into the dirt with one hit.

Granted, Goku can consciously suppress at any state, but I buy that less when the episode in question has him outright say he was getting carried away (unlike the Krillin episode where we're not told that's the case). And this is treated as the same as Gohan getting carried away with the fight as well, implying both of them being in the same mindset. Goku being SSJG-powerful as a SSJ but suppressing all the way down to Gohan's level to fight him in not just one but two equivalent states just doesn't jive with the mindset being communicated by the episode. Though I will grant that we do later see Goku get a bruise from a bullet (on the other hand, RoF the movie had SSB take a mortal blow from a simple ring blast, so "vulnerability to minor injury" doesn't always map to "rustiness").

But even then, remember that Two-Base was fervently argued for and supported long before the Great Saiyaman sparring episode.

"Goku SbG/God-Remnant Saiyan/'his normal power but adapted by his use of SSG'/pick-a-name > Final Form Frieza > First Form Frieza > SSJ Gohan > Goku Base" makes sense. "SSJ Gohan > Goku > Final Form Frieza > First Form Frieza > SSJ Gohan" doesn't.

Well, if we want to get really nitpicky, we could say Gohan had gotten that much stronger in-between those episodes. He did resume his training after the RoF arc after all. Personally I'd say Goku was holding back against Gohan to re-polish his own skills, and to have a father-son-SSJ-bro moment.

Does this suffice for you? Let me know if there's anything that isn't clear.

True, he did resume his training, but his later sessions with Piccolo confirm that, altogether, whatever benefits his training after RoF but prior to the ToP gave him still left him under his Buu Saga Ultimate power. A level we know Goku's long since left behind (bruises from bullets notwithstanding).

You were plenty clear. I just don't agree with some of your takeaways, or with your judgments of what qualifies as an assumption that shouldn't be made. Still, thanks for going into all that depth.

[Dagon]

@Tectorman To preface this post, let me be clear that I did not refernce "saiyan beyond god" as being undetectable. That was PFM18. I might have stated that once or twice in other threads or other forums but I don't believe I did in this thread. So I'll skip over points referencing that.

Okay, but it's important to note our takeaway is "Base Goku is now somewhere near 80% SSJG in power". The undetectability isn't a factor at all. It remains a nonfactor in RoF, and besides having a name, SbG is identical to what we saw last movie. At most, any description just confirms that Goku has SSJG's power in Base, something we already saw last movie. This may automatically include the undetectability or not, but it's not addressed either way, and so we have the same result under both interpretations. The series has Goku go undetectable with SSB, but the series also told us that SSJG-powerful SSJ Goku was also detectable. Ergo, SSJG power does not go hand in hand with undetectability, it never did, and from my perspective, you have to claim unfounded facts and ignore some of what we're told and shown to claim otherwise.

I agree with that concluding statement. Undetectability is a trait of fully god-like state(SSJG, SSJB, & SSJ Rose).

Hit specifically tells us he can't change his power level. He did show improvement in that fight, but it was through modifying his choice of stance, extending his Time Skip, and becoming more familiar with how Goku fights. But not his power level, because he straight up says so. We even see him appear to power up, only for the whole light show to be passed off as showmanship.

You've conflated my use of "effort" with "power level." These are not synonymous in all cases. For example, it takes 1st Form Freeza a minuscule amount of effort to defeat Nail, without changing power level. That's what I meant. Hit can be at 100% power but only exert himself just enough to try to hurt Goku. Think about it this way: When Goku is suppressed to 10% of his own power, and he's fighting an opponent equal to that, it takes 100% of Goku's effort when fighting at 10% power. However if Goku were at 100%, it would only take 10% effort. In the former case, Goku would be visibly exerting himself at 10% power, but at 100% power he would hardly be exerting himself at all for 10% effort.

I'll emphasize that again: the anime went out of its way to show Hit look like he was powering up only to directly confirm that, not only was that not what he was doing then, but he can't power up, period. They didn't have to include that part of the fight at all, or if they did, they could have had Hit appear to power up and then confirm that he totally did power up, as it appeared (which is what the manga did). Hit can and did improve in other ways, but not his power. "Hit PL begin-fight" equals "Hit PL mid-fight" equals "Hit PL end-fight" (or if it did change, it was by decreasing due to Hit getting tired and taking damage, and in any case, was more than offset by the other ways he was improving).

That would be incorrect. He got stronger from training up until the rematch with Goku after the Zamasu arc. You could call that apples and oranges but Hit can get stronger. At the very least, he might not be able to power up in battle, or perhaps couldn't power up in the U6 tournament but learned how to later on.

So first: offense. As you say, Hit starts off holding back his more harmful attacks because he doesn't want to kill Goku and he isn't familiar enough with what Goku can endure to use all of his techniques, even the nonlethal ones. And as the fight progresses, he can use more harmful techniques which still won't accidentally kill Goku since Hit is more familiar with him by then. This has the same effect of Hit being able to keep up with Goku going to SSB and then SSBKKx10, despite the power-level aspect of his offensive power not increasing. So far, so good.

The same can apply to Hit's defensive capabilities. The power-level aspect of his defenses doesn't change, as per Hit's power level not changing. Also, unlike attacking, Hit would be putting all of his effort and employing every defensive technique at his disposal, since you're not really going to accidentally kill someone by dodging at your best ability. So that aspect of his defense doesn't change, either. What would change, though, is again his familiarity with how Goku fights. And in this manner, his ability to defend would go up to match SSB and SSBKKx10, despite his power level not changing.

Here's where it breaks down: when Goku actually lands a hit. When Hit's defenses fail to avoid or deflect a hit, the only thing remaining is his natural endurance, augmented by his unchanging power level. No amount of increasing familiarity with how Goku fights or stance changes or improved Time Skip is going to modify how well Hit takes a hit from Goku. Ergo, if Goku's successful hits in SSBKKx10 don't wreck Hit thousands of times more than Goku's successful hits in Base, the only conclusion, then, must be that there isn't altogether that much difference between the two, same as we saw when Goku went from 80% SSJG to "God-Remnant" Base to "God-Remnant" SSJ against Beerus in BoG.

Which is what we observe. Goku did land attacks on Hit while still in Base, so we have a picture of Hit's durability. Nothing about the rest of how Hit improves during this fight changes this. And despite that, when Goku later lands a series of SSBKKx10-level hits, this doesn't appear all that different from what he suffered from Goku's Base-level hits.

I'm watching these episodes again.
Just watched DBS Episode 38. In it, Blue Vegeta loses to Hit, and base Goku learns Hit's fighting style and predicts Hit's movements in Time Skip. Hit only gets a scratch on the cheek, and base Goku is able to block Hit's attacks once Goku adapts to the Time Skip. Hit hasn't shown hardly any actual effort, merely surprise that Goku figured out his moves, and took insignificant damage which disappears by the next episode. At the end, Hit takes his hands out of his pockets, and Goku notes that Hit is getting serious, and states he will too. So Hit is not using serious effort in this episode, that much is certain.
DBS Episode 39: Goku turns Blue, and exchanges blows with Hit. Krillin remarks that Hit is fighting on par with Blue Goku. As the fight continues, Vegeta realizes Goku used Vegeta's fight with Hit to study Hit's habits. Hit then improves his Time Skip and lands a heavy blow on Blue Goku.
Hmm, well not sure that anything more proceeding this is relevant. You were making the case that base Goku and Blue Goku appeared to fight in the same ballpark, and so you took that to mean Goku could raise his base to near Blue levels. That's not what I'm seeing. The fight with base Goku and Hit was just for Goku to figure out Hit's ability and fighting style. Everything after that is Blue Goku trying to overcome Hit's ever-lengthening Time Skip.

This is probably going to short-circuit the rest of this, but I agree. The Two-Base Theory and the persistence of the belief in Saiyan Beyond God is an acknowledgement that the writers 1) changed paradigms mid-series and 2) aren't consistent (even once the new paradigm got established, the ToP had its own share of issues, especially once the U6 Saiyans got involved). No, neither SbG nor the two Bases are ever going to be acknowledged or addressed in-universe. Which is irrelevant, anyway. The point was always about having a model that allows the most material (movies and series, including "filler" episodes) to be true while avoiding as much rampant retconing based on assumption as possible. "SbG did exist and was used" until it "still existed but was no longer used" fits. "SbG doesn't exist now and never did before, just ignore what was established previously" doesn't.

The way I see it, it would be more accurate to say they(Toei and Shueisha) expanded upon the original idea. Reading that original Resurrection F promo, it's easy to come to the conclusion that "saiyan beyond god" was some kind of transformation state. In light of the proceeding material, it would be more like they "clarified" or slightly revised it by having Goku and Vegeta retain that power as just their plain old regular base form rather than two different states that lead to two different yellow SSJ scaled tiers or something. With the DBS anime, "they can attain god like power without changing form" would still be technically correct because Whis' training brought Vegeta and Goku to near or even beyond Goku's power level as SSJG from the previous arc. In this case "power" would be referring to the amount of power or power level as opposed to the type of power or type of ki(that being god ki).
So rather than "they can attain/utilize god ki without changing form" it would be "through training they can attain god-tier power without changing form/in their normal form." One thing I see people do is conflate "power" with the type of power rather the amount, and this isn't always the case. Sometimes the phrasing can be misleading.

Granted, but by that same token, we're never told that Saiyan Beyond God uses full-fledged God Ki or is substantively any different from the "God-Remnant" Base we saw him in while fighting against Beerus in BoG. Why aren't those (that SbG and/or BoG's "God-Remnant Base must be both God-powerful and God-undetectable) the assumptions that we shouldn't be making without direct evidence? Because the promotional material finally gave us a name?

We're never told in the RoF movie that he was undetected as a Saiyan Beyond God and just remained that way when he went to SSB, so why make that assumption? RoF in the series tells us he did go from detectable to undetectable, but if we were never told that undetectability is inherent to SbG, why take this as a sign that his detectability in Base MUST mean he wasn't an SbG? You're talking about not operating on facts not in evidence; that's what I'm doing.

Skimming over the undedectability point, I'll refer to the "god ki/mortal ki mixture" point.
We don't normally assume things without prior established reasons, do we? Like when you turn the knob for the hot water at your sink, you assume that hot water will come out. Without a prior notice that say, your water heater malfunctioned, you're going to assume that you'll get hot water when you turn the hot water knob. You wouldn't assume you'd get luke-warm or cold water without having known your water heater was broken, would you?
That's the logic we should apply here. Without something that establishes in no uncertain terms that the "saiyan beyond god" refers to a mixed mortal/god ki state rather than just referring to Goku and Vegeta or just "a saiyan" that has surpassed a god's power level, we shouldn't assume such.

We know through character statements that Goku retained the power level of his SSJG state in his SSJ form. Vegeta was trained by Whis to get near Goku's level so he'd be a good training partner, even without having yet attained god ki himself. It was only after Goku joined Vegeta in Whis' training, and after being put into the pocket time dimension full of god ki, did Goku and Vegeta learn how to control god ki after an unspecified amount of time training in that pocket dimension. And it was after this point that it was revealed they achieved SSJ Blue, which has god ki. The narrative says that Goku both retained the SSJG power level and did not know how to control god ki on his own prior to training with Whis, and Vegeta had to be trained for months alone before he could be a good training partner for Goku. Goku didn't even recognize Vegeta's ki at first when they first met at Beerus' palace. So by the narrative, Goku has an absurd power level before learning to control god ki. Even if we wanted to use a two base/two SSJ theory, we'd have to acknowledge that even prior to Goku learning to do that, he had already left everyone else in the dust with just his mortal ki.
This would mean that if pre-Whis training Goku fought Gohan like he did later on, or perhaps even the Gohan from the sparring episode, even prior to controlling god ki and even discounting the two-base theory, he'd have to suppress against his son.

Accepting SbG and the Two-Base Theory requires allowing for an outcome that, while not proven, hasn't been disproven, either. Rejecting it, on the other hand, requires an in-universe statement to disprove one of the two outcomes, and such a statement isn't in there. So of those two assumptions, isn't the latter the greater reach, and therefore the more tenuous?

Though, yes, it would have been absurdly simple to find at least one place to interject a line explaining the whole thing.

I'm going to have to make an analogy to religion vs atheism for this one. Might offend some people but it's to illustrate a point.

A religious person asserts the claim that their religion is correct. In the most straightforward way, a religious person would assert the claim that God exists. An atheist would reject a claim without evidence. This is often misconstrued as "Atheists assert that god doesn't exist," which is false(some self-proclaimed atheists do but that's not the strictest sense of the word. That's more like anti-theism rather than a-theism). In the truest sense of the word, an atheist rejects the religious person's claim that God exists because of the lack of substantial and proven scientific evidence. Rejecting a claim is not equatable to asserting the opposite of said claim, see where I'm going?

So in this case, the "two base theory" requires one to sort of "inject" things here or there into the narrative when the narrative itself does not explicitly substantiate it. See how that relates to the above example? The narrative does not acknowledge the two base theory, so the default position is "one base." In order for the two-base theory to be valid, the narrative would have to substantiate it. Some may say that since the narrative seems to not explicitly contradict it, that must mean the two-base theory can be or even should be valid. However, we must remember that not just in our discussions of fiction but our conduct in the real world, we should not assert theories that have no explicit substantiations. We can acknowledge them, but we should not assert them without validation by direct evidence.

Like for example, there are theories about chemtrails and poisoned vaccinations and etc, and some of these theories are built in a way that there is little to no evidence to contradict them(the government hides the evidence etc), but does that make those theories more valid? Of course not. If a theory is built to allow for a lack of evidence, then that's not a good theory.
To relate this to DBS, when we see Goku fighting at varying power levels, the default position is that he's suppressing at different points in different episodes, because we know that suppression is one of Goku's abilities; it's previously established and substantiated. A "god ki-boosted base" isn't substantiated via an explicit statement in the narrative, so without substantiation it shouldn't be purported.

Granted, Goku can consciously suppress at any state, but I buy that less when the episode in question has him outright say he was getting carried away (unlike the Krillin episode where we're not told that's the case). And this is treated as the same as Gohan getting carried away with the fight as well, implying both of them being in the same mindset. Goku being SSJG-powerful as a SSJ but suppressing all the way down to Gohan's level to fight him in not just one but two equivalent states just doesn't jive with the mindset being communicated by the episode. Though I will grant that we do later see Goku get a bruise from a bullet (on the other hand, RoF the movie had SSB take a mortal blow from a simple ring blast, so "vulnerability to minor injury" doesn't always map to "rustiness").

But even then, remember that Two-Base was fervently argued for and supported long before the Great Saiyaman sparring episode.

We have to recognize that the intent of the episode is to be a break from the main storyline and as such the audience should not take it super cereal. When it comes to in-universe reasons for these apparent inconsistencies, we can argue that Goku "getting carried away" can be Goku letting his suppression slip and thus letting his power level rise.

True, he did resume his training, but his later sessions with Piccolo confirm that, altogether, whatever benefits his training after RoF but prior to the ToP gave him still left him under his Buu Saga Ultimate power. A level we know Goku's long since left behind (bruises from bullets notwithstanding).

You were plenty clear. I just don't agree with some of your takeaways, or with your judgments of what qualifies as an assumption that shouldn't be made. Still, thanks for going into all that depth.

Well, if we wanted to really really finagle it, we could say Piccolo's referring to the form and not the power level, but I wouldn't purport that myself. I would take that as more evidence of Goku suppressing against Gohan prior.

Some of the confusion came from miscommunications so I hope I've made my reasoning more clear for you.