DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

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Majin Buu
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Re: DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:42 pm

Since the topic has shifted into talking about the original DBZ Uncensored (a testament to how irrelevant DBZU2 was). As I was going through the forum archives, I came across something interesting Herms said about Psaros:
I do agree that he had good writing skills but was too extreme and unforgiving. Unfortunately, he set the tone for much of the debate about the dub, even to today. His site did serve a needed function back then, but I wonder if American fandom might have been different had he been a...calmer person.

While I personally believe Herms is giving Psaros a bit too much credit (like Gaffer said, he wasn’t the only one that vocally hated the dub at the time), this statement did give me pause.

Would the American fandom be in a different, calmer place like Herms suggested? Would dub vs. sub discussions be less likely to become vitriolic? The DBZOA for instance likely wouldn’t have existed without Psaros (I recall its founder specifically mentioned in an editorial that he found out about the Japanese version because of Psaros’ site), and as I mentioned earlier, they had a reputation around here (ironically a largely sub oriented community) for being rabid, idiot, Funimation hating subbies (I had heard that some overly zealous DBZOA members spammed other websites in its name, but it seems the issues with them went deeper). Stuff like the DBZOA is unfortunately also part of Psaros’ legacy.

And for full disclosure, I do have fond memories of the DBZOA myself. As an adolescent that had just discovered how awesome Japanese DBZ was, and in turn, was outraged by how Funimation was, in my mind, disrespecting DBZ with their terrible dub; they were a very cathartic website to visit since they shared my righteous indignation. And once my family got the International Channel, I printed off their Project Shimonome(?) scripts so I could follow along with IC's DBZ airings. Looking back at them as an adult though, they really needed to tone down their rhetoric (and to be fair, so did Psaros at times), and starting shit with other websites like they did was definitely wrong. I still agree with the core of what they were about (that the DBZ dub was terrible), but in retrospect they really do come off like the rabid extremists they become known as.

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MasenkoHA
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Re: DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:11 am

Other than inspiring a host of imitation of other “uncensored sites”, most notably Sailor Moon Uncensored and Yu-Gi-oh Uncensored, which used the exact same lay out and set up and “attempt” at a similar brand of humor, I don’t think DBZ Uncensored had that much of an impact on sub vs dub debate. Chris was just one of many fans who already knew of the show from bootlegs.

I’m sure a significant portion of sub fans were converted by his website but I’m sure many more were converted by the Japanese version becoming more accessible to fans.

And it’s amusing what an artifact to early DBZ dub DBZ Uncensored is (through no fault of Chris of course). The edited to meet Saban’s demands and voiced by the Ocean cast dub has been replaced by the half-assed but uncut in-house redub. And even season 3 that Chris refers to has been pushed out by the Funimation cast re recording most of their dialog. It’s a nice little time capsule to a dub that no longer exist as far as Funimation is concerned.

I’ll admit I was one of many fans who became aware how censored the show was BECAUSE of Dragon Ball Z uncensored but as I didn’t really start watching DBZ until the Trunk saga (by the point the show was much much less censored) a lot of the site was just a reminder of how sanitized early DBZ was

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Re: DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:34 am

MasenkoHA wrote:Other than inspiring a host of imitation of other “uncensored sites”, most notably Sailor Moon Uncensored and Yu-Gi-oh Uncensored, which used the exact same lay out and set up and “attempt” at a similar brand of humor, I don’t think DBZ Uncensored had that much of an impact on sub vs dub debate. Chris was just one of many fans who already knew of the show from bootlegs.

I’m sure a significant portion of sub fans were converted by his website but I’m sure many more were converted by the Japanese version becoming more accessible to fans.

And it’s amusing what an artifact to early DBZ dub DBZ Uncensored is (through no fault of Chris of course). The edited to meet Saban’s demands and voiced by the Ocean cast dub has been replaced by the half-assed but uncut in-house redub. And even season 3 that Chris refers to has been pushed out by the Funimation cast re recording most of their dialog. It’s a nice little time capsule to a dub that no longer exist as far as Funimation is concerned.

I’ll admit I was one of many fans who became aware how censored the show was BECAUSE of Dragon Ball Z uncensored but as I didn’t really start watching DBZ until the Trunk saga (by the point the show was much much less censored) a lot of the site was just a reminder of how sanitized early DBZ was

I think I could be mistaken but praytell. Do you think that the Japanese version would have been available at all had these fans not complained about it? Say whatever you want about Psaros but his Loud and Proud subbie fan club brought purist dissent to the fandom. Sure there is indeed precedent for Funimation releasing Uncut and uncensored DBZ Movie DVD's dubbed well by them. But I think that most of the criticism made by him and otehrs like our very own Vegetto EX were CRUCIAL into turning the tide.
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90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Majin Buu
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Re: DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:53 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:I think I could be mistaken but praytell. Do you think that the Japanese version would have been available at all had these fans not complained about it? Say whatever you want about Psaros but his Loud and Proud subbie fan club brought purist dissent to the fandom. Sure there is indeed precedent for Funimation releasing Uncut and uncensored DBZ Movie DVD's dubbed well by them. But I think that most of the criticism made by him and otehrs like our very own Vegetto EX were CRUCIAL into turning the tide.
Very true. Not only did he help expose a lot of western fans to the original Japanese version, but if it wasn’t for people like him expressing their (extreme) displeasure with the dub, we probably wouldn’t have gotten bilingual DVDs since it at least made Funimation aware that there was a viable market for the original Japanese version in America; and without the Japanese version being legally available, I think the western fandom would be much worse off. Hell, it’s even possible that Funimation wouldn’t have had the impetus to improve as dubbing company if there hadn’t been people like him loudly telling them their dub was garbage. I think he's overall done more good than harm and I mostly still admire him.

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Re: DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

Post by Dr. Casey » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:41 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:One thing I've frequently noticed in my own public Dragon Ball work is that certain viewers tend to lack a certain nuance to hearing criticism. In particular, simply the act of mentioning something is enough to set people off or assume that it's being said with the same weight as the most scathing criticisms. If it's criticized, then it absolutely must mean it's abhorred to the highest level.
This is an incredibly irritating tendency, so it's good to see someone make note of this. I think I first noticed this about 10 years ago when I mentioned offhandedly on this one message board that in JRPGs I prefer to start off the game at Level 1 rather than anything higher because it gives off a cleaner 'beginning of game' feeling to me, and probably got about a dozen responses from people saying that I was too fixated on something minor, "who cares as long as the game is well-balanced," etc, despite the fact that it's just a minor preference and I'm really not bothered in the slightest if games don't adhere to that preference. Depending on my audience, I might just not bother expressing certain opinions at all because too many people equate 'having any kind of thoughts or feelings on a topic whatsoever' with having strong opinions on that topic.
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Re: DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:08 pm

Perhaps these sites got the original version released quicker, but I have no doubt that the original language track would've gotten included inevitably.
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Re: DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

Post by doomydoomydoom » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:44 pm

Well, it is sad to see the AnimeCauldron pages go but I really don't know who was keeping them up all this time. Hmm...

I was entertained by GS777 when I read all of those pages a few years ago but like others here I feel his approach to the whole thing was naked immature rage whereas Psaros was tempered by his sense of humor that made him endlessly re-readable, even here in 2018, 21 years later. Didn't always land and you could tell sometimes he was just picking on something as a setup for the joke, but still. DBZOA, nowadays, is tempered by nostalgia for the early - mid 2000s years of anime marketing in America and marketing of the DBZ franchise.

I don't believe at all that fandom would be any calmer or less vitriolic or what have you without those sites and people. Niche, "nerd\geek" (I prefer "cult", the term carries more dignity to me) fandoms like anime & manga, video games, comic books, Star Wars, Sonic etc. all have that subset of people, all have that subset of anger. They are cult audiences who like things for certain reasons. They don't like the suits, the new creative teams, coming in and fudging the whole deal up.

As far as the original DBZUncensored goes, yes it was absolutely necessary, influential and valuable. I don't think DBZOA is a part of Psaros's legacy, DBZOA was something different entirely and came together all after Psaros had gone off to college and shook this stuff from his life for good. The biggest point of his legacy however is that he pricked up FUNi's ears as others have cited. I discovered that site while researching Sonic X when I was a kid, this was about 13 years ago. I found out just how much anime has been censored and edited by American distributors.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:This should outright disprove that Chris didnt understand that Funimation had to make a lot of these changes to appease executives. I will NEVER say they were genuinely necessary because that's FUCKING BULLSHIT.

And that's not the only time either.

Sure, I disagree that censorship is needed, but its a bone of fairness he does throw for Funimation.
Something important to keep in mind is that DBZ came out over here during an era where there was a big, big panic over violence in media.

In the early 90s two, not one, TWO violence controversies exploded at once: the controversy over violent video games and the controversy over violence on TV. Media circus Senate hearings were held on both issues. The former yielded the ESRB, and Dr. Arthur Pober presented the ESRB's rating system before the Senate in 1994 for their approval. The violence on TV issue saw all the heads of the major networks dragged before the Senate and told to explain all of this violence on TV, many clips from "violent programming" and advertisements for violent shows and movies were shown. Kids programs like Power Rangers were brought up. This was during the era where darker action-oriented kids programming like Power Rangers, Batman: TAS, etc. were coming out. Jack Valenti, head of the MPAA, testified and volunteered to work with the TV business to develop a ratings system, and his work is what you see on the screen today. The V-Chip was also a product of this controversy. All of this stuff was presented before Congress and the media before being implemented, presumably for their approval and to show they were "taking action"...before Congress did. The controversy resurfaced in 2000 after Columbine and this time the problem was that the FTC discovered that R-rated films, M-rated games, and the like were being test marketed and advertised to the under-17 set, and that the TV ratings system wasn't working. Once again Senate hearings were held, Valenti tried to defend the MPAA, record label and RIAA presidents testified, etc. It yielded some advertising reforms (like no trailers for R-rated movies before a PG-rated film).

My point with all this is that FUNimation suddenly found themselves with a very violent foreign television program and had to do something to make it marketable to American kids and families and palatable to American children's television heads, who of course were in the thick of it. 4Kids found themselves in the same unfortunate predicament years later with One Piece where they had no understanding of what the content of the show was, just that it was big in Japan. These changes WERE necessary even if we didn't and still don't like them. If FUNi had been swept up into the controversy it would have destroyed them and it would have put down the DBZ franchise in America. Chris understood this and I believe his bones to pick were not so much censorship (except it was so easy to point and laugh at just how censored it was) as dubbing\script quality, and the unavailability of the uncut, uncensored Japanese version on home video. FUNi shortly rectified the situation after they heard the fans. Adult Swim changed the game as well allowing FUNi to license and get on TV a mostly uncensored YuYu Hakusho and Blue Gender. Being on cable also helped DBZ because cable has no FCC content regulations, it's all up to the network. Chris BTW did make some excellent points regarding the censorship, such as how they could have trashed the infamous HFIL episode entirely.
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Re: DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:57 pm

ABED wrote:Perhaps these sites got the original version released quicker, but I have no doubt that the original language track would've gotten included inevitably.
I would think Funimation would have an incentive to release uncut Japanese subbbed on home video after seeing Pioneer’s release of the first three movies prove there is in fact a market for it. Something Gen Fukunaga didn’t initially believe to be the case iirc

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Re: DBZ Uncensored 2 is gone.

Post by DrBriefsCat » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:16 pm

I'm surprised that site had still been up after all these years, remembering it from the dial-up days. Along with Chris Psaro's site, it first introduced me to uncut DBZ.

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