The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

[HeroR]

For some reason I can't reply to HeroR's comment. I doubt Toriyama wrote down which exact characters were going to appear in that flashback. It showed some gods that Goku only saw fighting in the manga GoD battle royale. Broly is a sequel to both versions of the story but my point was that Toriyama likely only remembers what he wrote in previous movies or outlines. I recall Toei created Kefla so I don't think Toriyama wouldn't taken her into account or Gotenks' anime only appearance when writing Broly.

He made Cali, so he technically half made Kelfa. And by logic, he would remember half the gods since he didn’t design them.

[Grimlock]

Vegeta apparently didn’t even know what fusion is despite him seeing Gotenks at Bulma’s birthday.

I haven't find any subbed version of the movie to post it here, but in the dub of my region Goku asks if Vegeta can do the fusion, not if he knows about it. There's a difference between them.

Vegeta obviously know about the Metamoru fusion, as he said he saw everything from the Otherworld. As per Movie 1, Trunks "told him about it", and as you said, he saw Gotenks fighting Beerus. Also, the fact that Vegeta later reacts "it's that ridiculous little dance technique?" already tells you that he knows about it, anyway.

That’s how light on the details these movies are.

Well, these same movies have Goku in base form in the scene shooting Kamehameha with Gohan against Cell (extended version of Movie 14), instead of Super Saiyan Goku, as seen in the anime; kid Vegeta with no bangs in Movie 14; no Gregory in Movie 14; Bulma not knowing how Freeza looks like in Movie 15... Maybe not so light on the details (though they do sleep over some important ones).

[Skar]

He made Cali, so he technically half made Kelfa. And by logic, he would remember half the gods since he didn’t design them.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I think someone rationalize why Toriyama didn't use any anime or manga exclusive forms or why Gogeta was the first fusion Freeza met but it seems easier he only goes by what he wrote himself in previous outlines. I'm not arguing Kefla is "non-canon" since she appears in both versions but he probably didn't specifically write that Caulifa fuses in his outline so he might not have taken it into account when writing Broly.

[HeroR]

He made Cali, so he technically half made Kelfa. And by logic, he would remember half the gods since he didn’t design them.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I think someone rationalize why Toriyama didn't use any anime or manga exclusive forms or why Gogeta was the first fusion Freeza met but it seems easier he only goes by what he wrote himself in previous outlines. I'm not arguing Kefla is "non-canon" since she appears in both versions but he probably didn't specifically write that Caulifa fuses in his outline so he might not have taken it into account when writing Broly.

Not what I said. I’m saying if he only remembers what he wrote or designed, then most of the gods are the same since he didn’t design half of them. And Toriyama’s the same person who claimed in the original Resurrection ‘F’ script that Frieza met Bulma. So he forgets stuff he wrote in these movies.

[Kataphrut]

Vegeta apparently didn’t even know what fusion is despite him seeing Gotenks at Bulma’s birthday.

I haven't find any subbed version of the movie to post it here, but in the dub of my region Goku asks if Vegeta can do the fusion, not if he knows about it. There's a difference between them.

Vegeta obviously know about the Metamoru fusion, as he said he saw everything from the Otherworld. As per Movie 1, Trunks "told him about it", and as you said, he saw Gotenks fighting Beerus. Also, the fact that Vegeta later reacts "it's that ridiculous little dance technique?" already tells you that he knows about it, anyway.

That’s how light on the details these movies are.

Well, these same movies have Goku in base form in the scene shooting Kamehameha with Gohan against Cell (extended version of Movie 14), instead of Super Saiyan Goku, as seen in the anime; kid Vegeta with no bangs in Movie 14; no Gregory in Movie 14; Bulma not knowing how Freeza looks like in Movie 15... Maybe not so light on the details (though they do sleep over some important ones).

Re Vegeta and fusion, it’s more the fact that he mentions it as if he’s only ever heard about it secondhand from Trunks. As opposed to y’know seeing Gotenks get spanked by Beerus in Battle of Gods.

The other examples you gave are from the original, which is held to a different standard. My point is that the events of Super are only ever mentioned in the broadest of strokes. Sure there’s no Kaioken Blue in Broly, but there’s not Blue Evolution either. There’s no acknowledgement of Kefla or Kale despite several moments where it would be extremely appropriate.

Even the direct reference to the Tournament of Power and the visual cameo of those fighters is only ever referenced as “remember that cool tournament and those awesome fighters?” No names, no details. And speaking of visual cameos, Goku’s little flashback montage of the villains when talking to Broly only covers the original. Zamasu who?

[SupremeKai25]

And speaking of visual cameos, Goku’s little flashback montage of the villains when talking to Broly only covers the original. Zamasu who?

I mean, it's better if this clown doesn't reminisce about Zamasu, since they got humiliated so hard by him. Literally had to be bailed out by Grand Zeno because they messed up so badly

[Skar]

Not what I said. I’m saying if he only remembers what he wrote or designed, then most of the gods are the same since he didn’t design half of them. And Toriyama’s the same person who claimed in the original Resurrection ‘F’ script that Frieza met Bulma. So he forgets stuff he wrote in these movies.

Aside from Champa, the rest of the GoDs only appeared in the ToP so I'm not sure if there's a need to remember all of them. You're giving an example of Toriyama forgetting a detail he wrote himself. It's understandable due to his age but that makes it less likely he would care to remember what that other people came up with.

[HeroR]

Not what I said. I’m saying if he only remembers what he wrote or designed, then most of the gods are the same since he didn’t design half of them. And Toriyama’s the same person who claimed in the original Resurrection ‘F’ script that Frieza met Bulma. So he forgets stuff he wrote in these movies.

Aside from Champa, the rest of the GoDs only appeared in the ToP so I'm not sure if there's a need to remember all of them. You're giving an example of Toriyama forgetting a detail he wrote himself. It's understandable due to his age but that makes it less likely he would care to remember what that other people came up with.

It isn’t just age. He forgot stuff that he wrote months ago in the original manga. Like how the Dragon Balls need a year to recharged and the Dragon Balls were active again eight months later. Or how Cell needs his head to regen when Goku literally blew Cell’s head off.

[Skar]

It isn’t just age. He forgot stuff that he wrote months ago in the original manga. Like how the Dragon Balls need a year to recharged and the Dragon Balls were active again eight months later. Or how Cell needs his head to regen when Goku literally blew Cell’s head off.

He admits to having bad memory. I just mean it's understandable for any human to forget more as they age compared to when they were younger. I'm still not sure how these examples make it likely he's making any effort to remember what Toei or Toyotaro came up with if he's struggling to remember what he wrote himself.

[HeroR]

It isn’t just age. He forgot stuff that he wrote months ago in the original manga. Like how the Dragon Balls need a year to recharged and the Dragon Balls were active again eight months later. Or how Cell needs his head to regen when Goku literally blew Cell’s head off.

He admits to having bad memory. I just mean it's understandable for any human to forget more as they age compared to when they were younger. I'm still not sure how these examples make it likely he's making any effort to remember what Toei or Toyotaro came up with if he's struggling to remember what he wrote himself.

It's just odd to say 'it's age' when Toriyama has this issue when he was younger.

I point it out because Toriyama can barely remember his own stuff, so him remembering what someone else did is just as unlikely with one of his mistake being a massive plot hole. Heck in the Broly movie, Vegeta acted new to Fusion saying 'I've seen Trunks talking about it' like he didn't outright said in the Buu Saga, 'I saw the kids do it from the Otherworld and I'm not doing that'.

[Skar]

It's just odd to say 'it's age' when Toriyama has this issue when he was younger.

I point it out because Toriyama can barely remember his own stuff, so him remembering what someone else did is just as unlikely with one of his mistake being a massive plot hole. Heck in the Broly movie, Vegeta acted new to Fusion saying 'I've seen Trunks talking about it' like he didn't outright said in the Buu Saga, 'I saw the kids do it from the Otherworld and I'm not doing that'.

I don't know what's odd about it since in general a person's memory doesn't improve as they age. Toriyama admit to having bad memory in his prime so by default he's more likely to forget at his current age. I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. Are you saying he was taking into account manga or anime exclusive ideas for Broly but he happened to forget them all in the examples I mentioned?

[HeroR]

I don't know what's odd about it since in general a person's memory doesn't improve as they age. Toriyama admit to having bad memory in his prime so by default he's more likely to forget at his current age. I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. Are you saying he was taking into account manga or anime exclusive ideas for Broly but he happened to forget them all in the examples I mentioned?

Depends. If you had a bad memory to begin with, it can get better with age with the right diet and training. So you can get a better memory getting older compared to when you're younger. Just like a person can be healthier in their 40s than they were in their 20s because they decided to take better care of themselves. That and Toriyama isn't writing week by week anymore, so there's less reason for him to make errors when he can literally go back and check his work.

I am saying that using Frieza not knowing what Fusion is because 'Toriyama doesn't acknowledge Kelfa because he didn't design her' doesn't really work when Toriyama in the same movie forgot something he wrote himself. In short, Frieza acting new to Fusion isn't because Toriyama didn't make Kelfa. It's there because Toriyama made everyone act like Fusion was a shocking new thing when Vegeta saw it several times. Forget the Buu Saga, he saw Goten and Trunks fused in front of him in Battle of Gods.

[Skar]

Depends. If you had a bad memory to begin with, it can get better with age with the right diet and training. So you can get a better memory getting older compared to when you're younger. Just like a person can be healthier in their 40s than they were in their 20s because they decided to take better care of themselves. That and Toriyama isn't writing week by week anymore, so there's less reason for him to make errors when he can literally go back and check his work.

I mean you can find exceptions but generally the average person's memory deterioates as they age. I don't know if Toriyama is one of these exceptions or if any other author's memory improved in their 60s compared to when they were younger.

I am saying that using Frieza not knowing what Fusion is because 'Toriyama doesn't acknowledge Kelfa because he didn't design her' doesn't really work when Toriyama in the same movie forgot something he wrote himself. In short, Frieza acting new to Fusion isn't because Toriyama didn't make Kelfa. It's there because Toriyama made everyone act like Fusion was a shocking new thing when Vegeta saw it several times. Forget the Buu Saga, he saw Goten and Trunks fused in front of him in Battle of Gods.

You're free to rationalize it that way but I think there's a difference between an author forgetting details they wrote and not taking into account someone else's ideas. He still didn't use any of the manga or anime Blue upgrades and Kataphrut pointed out they didn't bring up Kale which would've been appropriate when they saw Broly transform. They all could be explained away individually but I think Toriyama only taking into consideration what he wrote before accounts for all of them. I also don't expect to see any references to anime or manga exclusive ideas in Super Hero.

[HeroR]

Depends. If you had a bad memory to begin with, it can get better with age with the right diet and training. So you can get a better memory getting older compared to when you're younger. Just like a person can be healthier in their 40s than they were in their 20s because they decided to take better care of themselves. That and Toriyama isn't writing week by week anymore, so there's less reason for him to make errors when he can literally go back and check his work.

I mean you can find exceptions but generally the average person's memory deterioates as they age. I don't know if Toriyama is one of these exceptions or if any other author's memory improved in their 60s compared to when they were younger.

I am saying that using Frieza not knowing what Fusion is because 'Toriyama doesn't acknowledge Kelfa because he didn't design her' doesn't really work when Toriyama in the same movie forgot something he wrote himself. In short, Frieza acting new to Fusion isn't because Toriyama didn't make Kelfa. It's there because Toriyama made everyone act like Fusion was a shocking new thing when Vegeta saw it several times. Forget the Buu Saga, he saw Goten and Trunks fused in front of him in Battle of Gods.

You're free to rationalize it that way but I think there's a difference between an author forgetting details they wrote and not taking into account someone else's ideas. He still didn't use any of the manga or anime Blue upgrades and Kataphrut pointed out they didn't bring up Kale which would've been appropriate when they saw Broly transform. They all could be explained away individually but I think Toriyama only taking into consideration what he wrote before accounts for all of them. I also don't expect to see any references to anime or manga exclusive ideas in Super Hero.

For someone doing a weekly manga like Oda rn, it's unlikely, because it's a stressful job. That said Ode despite his health issues in the past kept his sharp memory. Like, there is only a few mistakes in One Piece when it comes to information. One I remember was from 2007-08 where Sanji claimed he wanted the Clear Clear Fruit when Sanji didn't know what a Devil Fruit was when he was first introduced. But that is still closed to a ten year gap for that mistake.

But memory aside, the point still stands that Toriyama can easily check on his manga. Or in the case of Fusion, just rewatched Battle of Gods.

There can be a different, but not when it happened in the same movie. Like, why would Vegeta not know what Fusion is and why is it only the Frieza's line that stands out when they're both equally weird? More so with Vegeta since he saw Fusion at least twice according to Toriyama's canon.

Kale and Broly don't share the same transformation even if Kale is based on Broly (Canon Broly actually pre-dates Kale because the movie was written ahead of the TOP). Broly's transformation is called Super Saiyan Full Power while Kale is called Super Saiyan Berserk and they're marketed as different forms. So, it isn't odd not to reference her, especially when Broly didn't even have Super Saiyan Full Power in Toriyama's original script. He just had Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Full Power was created by Shinta, so an anime original design is in the movie.

[Skar]

For someone doing a weekly manga like Oda rn, it's unlikely, because it's a stressful job. That said Ode despite his health issues in the past kept his sharp memory. Like, there is only a few mistakes in One Piece when it comes to information. One I remember was from 2007-08 where Sanji claimed he wanted the Clear Clear Fruit when Sanji didn't know what a Devil Fruit was when he was first introduced. But that is still closed to a ten year gap for that mistake.

But memory aside, the point still stands that Toriyama can easily check on his manga. Or in the case of Fusion, just rewatched Battle of Gods.

I don't think Toriyama rereads his entire manga or all his work each outline. He forgets some details in interviews which usually happen around a new release. I've heard Oda pays attention to detail but I've read that he forgets occasionally which is understandable. I'm genuinely not sure if there's any series I've ever followed that became more consistent over time because it becomes harder for an author to keep track of everything the longer the story continues and the older they get.

There can be a different, but not when it happened in the same movie. Like, why would Vegeta not know what Fusion is and why is it only the Frieza's line that stands out when they're both equally weird? More so with Vegeta since he saw Fusion at least twice according to Toriyama's canon.

Kale and Broly don't share the same transformation even if Kale is based on Broly (Canon Broly actually pre-dates Kale because the movie was written ahead of the TOP). Broly's transformation is called Super Saiyan Full Power while Kale is called Super Saiyan Berserk and they're marketed as different forms. So, it isn't odd not to reference her, especially when Broly didn't even have Super Saiyan Full Power in Toriyama's original script. He just had Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Full Power was created by Shinta, so an anime original design is in the movie.

Officially they have different names but they're all basically mutated variations of SSJ based on the original Broly. You're saying the movie was written before the ToP but they still had time to have a flashback and show some characters from it so a reference to Kale wouldn't be impossible if Toriyama wanted it. I still find it hard to believe he didn't reference any anime or manga only scenes and transformations but that each had its own unrelated reason why it wasn't included. What would the explanation be if the same happens in Super Hero?

[HeroR]

For someone doing a weekly manga like Oda rn, it's unlikely, because it's a stressful job. That said Ode despite his health issues in the past kept his sharp memory. Like, there is only a few mistakes in One Piece when it comes to information. One I remember was from 2007-08 where Sanji claimed he wanted the Clear Clear Fruit when Sanji didn't know what a Devil Fruit was when he was first introduced. But that is still closed to a ten year gap for that mistake.

But memory aside, the point still stands that Toriyama can easily check on his manga. Or in the case of Fusion, just rewatched Battle of Gods.

I don't think Toriyama rereads his entire manga or all his work each outline. He forgets some details in interviews which usually happen around a new release. I've heard Oda pays attention to detail but I've read that he forgets occasionally which is understandable. I'm genuinely not sure if there's any series I've ever followed that became more consistent over time because it becomes harder for an author to keep track of everything the longer the story continues and the older they get.

There can be a different, but not when it happened in the same movie. Like, why would Vegeta not know what Fusion is and why is it only the Frieza's line that stands out when they're both equally weird? More so with Vegeta since he saw Fusion at least twice according to Toriyama's canon.

Kale and Broly don't share the same transformation even if Kale is based on Broly (Canon Broly actually pre-dates Kale because the movie was written ahead of the TOP). Broly's transformation is called Super Saiyan Full Power while Kale is called Super Saiyan Berserk and they're marketed as different forms. So, it isn't odd not to reference her, especially when Broly didn't even have Super Saiyan Full Power in Toriyama's original script. He just had Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Full Power was created by Shinta, so an anime original design is in the movie.

Officially they have different names but they're all basically mutated variations of SSJ based on the original Broly. You're saying the movie was written before the ToP but they still had time to have a flashback and show some characters from it so a reference to Kale wouldn't be impossible if Toriyama wanted it. I still find it hard to believe he didn't reference any anime or manga only scenes and transformations but that each had its own unrelated reason why it wasn't included. What would the explanation be if the same happens in Super Hero?

Toriyama is actually on record saying he reread the manga when writing Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’.

Except Super Saiyan Full Power is never called a mutated Super Saiyan form anywhere. What was stated was Broly was a mutant. Them showing clips of the TOP fighter isn’t really the same of changing the script. Like Goku when talking about the TOP made no reference to Jiren, not even to compare him with Broly. And it wasn’t even a flashback. Just still shots of TOP characters.

As for Super Heroes, it pre-dates the manga arcs since it was written even before Broly was completed. Which is late 2018. Also to note, Broly pre-dated the USS by months. So the script was already written before Kale was created.

[Grimlock]

Re Vegeta and fusion, it’s more the fact that he mentions it as if he’s only ever heard about it secondhand from Trunks. As opposed to y’know seeing Gotenks get spanked by Beerus in Battle of Gods.

You're right. It's one of those moments which we should just roll our eyes and move on, pretending it didn't happen or something. It's a very odd decision to make Vegeta say something like that.

If Gotenks hadn't shown up in Movie 14, we could use the cheap excuse that Majin Buu saga happened six years prior to the events of Movie 1, so Vegeta "might" have forgotten, but eh...

[miguelnuva1]

Re Vegeta and fusion, it’s more the fact that he mentions it as if he’s only ever heard about it secondhand from Trunks. As opposed to y’know seeing Gotenks get spanked by Beerus in Battle of Gods.

You're right. It's one of those moments which we should just roll our eyes and move on, pretending it didn't happen or something. It's a very odd decision to make Vegeta say something like that.

If Gotenks hadn't shown up in Movie 14, we could use the cheap excuse that Majin Buu saga happened six years prior to the events of Movie 1, so Vegeta "might" have forgotten, but eh...

Vegeta was not I'm his right state of mind in m14 he was terrified of Beerus.

Vegeta's attitude to fusion is to blow it off so him answering the way his does is in character.

[Skar]

Toriyama is actually on record saying he reread the manga when writing Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’.

It makes sense since he hasn't written anything for the series in almost two decades. I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that he actively rereads everything until now and that his memory improved with age. I don't think there's a way to prove that so I assumed he wasn't an exception to 99% of the human population and wasn't holding it against him. I'm not still sure what this had to do with remembering other people's ideas.

Except Super Saiyan Full Power is never called a mutated Super Saiyan form anywhere. What was stated was Broly was a mutant. Them showing clips of the TOP fighter isn’t really the same of changing the script. Like Goku when talking about the TOP made no reference to Jiren, not even to compare him with Broly. And it wasn’t even a flashback. Just still shots of TOP characters.

As for Super Heroes, it pre-dates the manga arcs since it was written even before Broly was completed. Which is late 2018. Also to note, Broly pre-dated the USS by months. So the script was already written before Kale was created.

That wasn't what I was asking. I believed Toriyama ignores manga or anime exclusive ideas because none appeared in Broly. It might be that he intentionally ignored them, forgot them, or doesn't take into account anything he didn't write himself. Of course, we don't know the exact reasons but it doesn't really matter because the outcome is the same. I'm asking what your explanation would be if Super Hero did the same thing and doesn't acknowledge or reference anything Toriyama didn't write from both versions.

[HeroR]

Toriyama is actually on record saying he reread the manga when writing Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’.

It makes sense since he hasn't written anything for the series in almost two decades. I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that he actively rereads everything until now and that his memory improved with age. I don't think there's a way to prove that so I assumed he wasn't an exception to 99% of the human population and wasn't holding it against him. I'm not still sure what this had to do with remembering other people's ideas.

Except Super Saiyan Full Power is never called a mutated Super Saiyan form anywhere. What was stated was Broly was a mutant. Them showing clips of the TOP fighter isn’t really the same of changing the script. Like Goku when talking about the TOP made no reference to Jiren, not even to compare him with Broly. And it wasn’t even a flashback. Just still shots of TOP characters.

As for Super Heroes, it pre-dates the manga arcs since it was written even before Broly was completed. Which is late 2018. Also to note, Broly pre-dated the USS by months. So the script was already written before Kale was created.

That wasn't what I was asking. I believed Toriyama ignores manga or anime exclusive ideas because none appeared in Broly. It might be that he intentionally ignored them, forgot them, or doesn't take into account anything he didn't write himself. Of course, we don't know the exact reasons but it doesn't really matter because the outcome is the same. I'm asking what your explanation would be if Super Hero did the same thing and doesn't acknowledge or reference anything Toriyama didn't write from both versions.

You said Toriyama didn’t reread his stuff when he is on record doing it for Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’. So he’s capable of fact checking himself. So him having a poor memory still isn’t really an excuse when Toriyama, according to his own words, has reread the manga at least three times during the period of Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ so he’s capable of not just going off his memory. Because it isn’t just the two decade gap if he reread the manga again for Resurrection ‘F’ which was only three years after Battle of Gods.

By that logic, Broly wouldn’t have Super Saiyan Full Power since he didn’t make that either. In fact, it wouldn’t exist at all since the animators created it so it’s functioning no different than SSBE.