Is the DragonBall Z anime "canon"?

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:42 am

Hi, I was debating this subject with a group of friends and I wanted to know what do you fans think?. BTW I believe the anime is canon.......

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:09 am

Some of it is cannon but some of its filler. That all is to the anime. The manga is cannon to the fullest, I think.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:42 am

The manga is the most canon of the bunch (including that, anime and daizenshuu and everything else) It's the original creators storyline according to his universe of Dragon Ball.

Anime in general is basically just a contrast of canon stuff, going straight by the manga, and filler thought from the top of the animating companies heads. But if you want my I'd say that quite a bit of it is filler.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:57 am

Okay, just gonna say this here and now; the anime and manga are two entirely different canons. Filler alone proves that, as those events don't take place in the confines of the manga, but they do in the anime and hence make that help build the over-all universe. It's not just filler either, there are moments in the anime that directly contradict the manga, and vice-versa. Moments that come to mind are:

Purple Murasaki's death: In the manga, he dies when Goku knocks him out and the subsequent collapse of Muscle Tower. In the anime, he in fact survives and tries using Android 8's co-creator to steal the Dragonballs from Goku, though eventually meets his end thanks to #8's bomb.

Roshi's first meeting with Goku: In the anime, Roshi doesn't first meet Goku when Umigame is rescued. It in fact occurs prior to DragonBall, when Roshi is 18 years old, Goku's traveled to the past as a part of training for Piccolo Daimao's true heir. This is a time before the terror of Piccolo Daimao began and when Mutaito was arguably the most powerful human on Earth. Roshi meets Goku, Goku helps rescue his first love from a cruel joke of the Crane hermit, and Goku learns a valuable lesson about spiritual energy from Mutaito.

Gohan's first hidden power glimpse: In the manga, it's obviously when he sets off Raditz's scouter to 710 and the following surprise headbutt attack. In the anime though, it's shown that Gohan has shown glimpses of his power since he was literally an infant. Such events were surviving an accidental cradle crash into a tree, heralding Garlic Jr. into the Dead Zone, and small moments alone in the forest before Goku took him to Kame Island.

The death of Dende's brother, Kargo: In the manga, Freeza is responsible for this travesty. However, in the anime, Dodoria is responsible, directly contradicting the manga and proof the manga and anime are not one in the same. TWO different universes.

Future Trunks' ascension to Super Saiyan: In the manga, just like his present counterpart and Goten, Trunks seemingly can naturally go SSJ. However in the anime, such as the case with Gohan, Trunks trains very hard with Gohan and even has to survive a battle with the Androids before having a crack at the level. With the anime, it isn't until Trunks finds Gohan's body that he ascends. Direct contradiction.

Helping in Cell's defeat: In the manga, it is only Vegeta whom comes to SSJ2 Gohan's aid in the final Kamehame-Ha battle. However, the anime alters this to Piccolo, Tien, Kuririn, and Yamcha together trying to weaken Cell. Their efforts are futile, but seem to open the chance for Vegeta to catch Cell off guard.

Fate of the dead: With the manga, it is made clear that the evil dead are immediately cleansed and reincarnated, this in fact is shown in animated form with the non-anime-canon DBZ movie 12. However, the anime significantly changes this. Apparently, such dead souls as Freeza, his Father, and the Ginyu collective are still roaming Hell not only with memories, but in corporeal form able to kill. This is seen following Goku's first meeting with Pikkon, during the SSJ3 Goku Vs. Kid Buu battle, and much later on in GT (which, as my point of view sees, is canon with the anime since it is an intended anime sequel to DBZ).

A small moment in the Buu Arc: During Fusion training, when Kuririn makes a 4th wall breaking type comment, the Tori Bot pops up and does a little comedic fourth wall breaking of his own. This is never shown in the anime. The same can be said with Pilaf's moments in early DB.

The end of DBZ: In the updated Kanzenban, it's shown that when Goku takes Uub to his village to begin training, he bestows him the Kinto 'Un. Goku then flashbacks to his early child days and compares himself to Uub. Meanwhile, Vegeta still bickers about one day defeating "Kakarrot". In the anime, while this predates the Kanzenban canon update, Goku merely flies to Uub's village with him on his back while Vegeta merely acknowledges that training Uub to be the next generation protector isn't his only reason; no bickering about still wanting to beat him (though later in GT, he does wanna have battles for fun to see if he can still surpass him).

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:29 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:Roshi's first meeting with Goku: In the anime, Roshi doesn't first meet Goku when Umigame is rescued. It in fact occurs prior to DragonBall, when Roshi is 18 years old, Goku's traveled to the past as a part of training for Piccolo Daimao's true heir. This is a time before the terror of Piccolo Daimao began and when Mutaito was arguably the most powerful human on Earth. Roshi meets Goku, Goku helps rescue his first love from a cruel joke of the Crane hermit, and Goku learns a valuable lesson about spiritual energy from Mutaito.

That one doesn't really contradict the manga, does it? For all we know, it could happen "in-between the pages".

Gohan's first hidden power glimpse: In the manga, it's obviously when he sets off Raditz's scouter to 710 and the following surprise headbutt attack. In the anime though, it's shown that Gohan has shown glimpses of his power since he was literally an infant.

Same here. The manga doesn't state that it's the first time that ever happened.

GT (which, as my point of view sees, is canon with the anime since it is an intended anime sequel to DBZ).

Er... What do you call "non-anime-canon movies", then?

I'm not even sure you could say there is an "anime canon" anyway... If the Garlic Jr. filler is "anime-canon", so is the first movie. If "Dragon Ball GT" is canon, so are Coora and co. And that would lead to lots of inconsistencies, so calling it a "canon" seems kinda pointless to me...

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:46 am

Olivier Hague wrote:Er... What do you call "non-anime-canon movies", then?

I'm not even sure you could say there is an "anime canon" anyway... If the Garlic Jr. filler is "anime-canon", so is the first movie. If "Dragon Ball GT" is canon, so are Coora and co. And that would lead to lots of inconsistencies, so calling it a "canon" seems kinda pointless to me...

I've said a thousand...no, a million times, this is how I view the anime universe's timeline/canon from my point of view:

Conan the SSJ wrote:Bardock Special.
Original DragonBall Series -- Episodes 1 - 153.
Dead Zone Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 1 - 117.
Trunks Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 118 - 125 (till the point where the screen freezes as the 3 years quickly pass by).
Cooler's Revenge Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 125 (from the last minute of this episode when the 3 years have passed) - 194.
Bojack Unbound Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 195 - 288.
Wrath of the Dragon Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 289 - 291.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episodes 1 - 64 (right up to the final 8 minute sequence, culminating with Goku departing with Shenlong).
Goku Jr. Special.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episode 64 (The final 8 minutes, 100 years later).

I was speaking from my own point of view of the anime canon, and as it would seem with some events in the anime like the Garlic Jr. arc and Coola's later appearance in GT, some of the DBZ movies have to be forced to fit for said events to happen in this universe IMO, as long as there can be an attempt at reasonable explanations. Oliver, are you trying to go back on that starting a fight bandwagon? Because seriously, where does that whole "it could happen between the pages" BS come from? The Daizenshuu never confirms that filler should be taken into the manga. The manga is simply its own thing, the Kanzenban being the true straight continuity/canon for this universe, with I suppose possibly and arguably the Bardock special being the only thing from the anime that could be shared for both areas of canon.

And I swear, if you ask for "proof", oy oy oy. -_-;

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:55 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:are you trying to go back on that starting a fight bandwagon?

Are you?

where does that whole "it could happen between the pages" BS come from?

I thought that was pretty clear: that filler you mentioned doesn't directly contradict the manga.
The manga doesn't show us each and every second of the characters' lives: Gohan could have manifested some of his potential prior to the Raditz incident. And Gokû meeting a younger Kame Sennin in the past wouldn't create any major inconsistency, would it?

Anyway, I don't quite understand how you can have a problem with that when you're forcing some of the movies in your anime canon...

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:10 am

Olivier Hague wrote:Are you?

No. Regarding how I "force" some of the DBZ movies into my own point of view of the anime, that's a completely separate matter from trying to make events that occur only in the anime relevant to the manga without say from the Daizenshuu or a proper nod by Toriyama (such as implementing Bardock's final scene in the special in a couple panels before Goku fights Freeza). I presented my own personal explanations on why I believe DBZ movies 1, 5, 9, and 13 fit in the anime in the link in my above post. Are you seriously telling me that we should consider events Toriyama didn't write that occur in the anime one-in-the-same with his own domain of the manga? Because if you are, then maybe I should ask where your proof is that Toriyama either wrote said filler episodes or showed nods/references to the occurrences later on in the manga. But I'm not going to, as I'm not an absolute anal-renetive fan-boy that must have his say in everything until I have the last word and think I'm right about everything.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:44 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:Regarding how I "force" some of the DBZ movies into my own point of view of the anime, that's a completely separate matter from trying to make events that occur only in the anime relevant to the manga

I'm not trying to "make them relevant" at all. I'm just saying they don't directly contradict the manga.

I believe you were trying to show how the manga and the anime were two different continuities, right? In order to do that, you have to point out contradictions.
Cargo being killed by Dodoria rather than Freeza is a contradiction, indeed... but Gohan showing glimpses of his potential prior to the Raditz thing isn't. It's just "additional stuff". There's nothing in the manga saying that it didn't or couldn't happen.

On the one hand, claiming that it's yet another contradiction screams of weird rigidness ("that's the first time we saw that in the manga, so that has to be the first time that ever happened, period!"), and on the other hand, including the Coora movie (for example) in the TV series continuity requires quite a bit of flexibility to say the least. So I'm not sure I follow you.

I'm not going to, as I'm not an absolute anal-renetive fan-boy that must have his say in everything until I have the last word and think I'm right about everything.

I can see how I'm the one who's on the "starting a fight" bandwagon...

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:58 am

Olivier Hague wrote:On the one hand, claiming that it's yet another contradiction screams of weird rigidness ("that's the first time we saw that in the manga, so that has to be the first time that ever happened, period!"), and on the other hand, including the Coora movie (for example) in the TV series continuity requires quite a bit of flexibility to say the least. So I'm not sure I follow you.

Here's why I include movie 5 in my point of view of the anime canon:

Conan the SSJ wrote:DBZ Movie 5: Here I view movie 5 between the conclusion of Goku's driving school adventure and the 3 year blip. I hold to explanations that Gohan simply has had a haircut and off-screen grown his tail back (just as Goku had done during his world travels in original DB) though gets it cut off-screen due to Doore bringing its weakness back into the picture. The whole buildup of Goku's SSJ transformation can simply be explained as; it was for dramatic effect and also it had probably been a while since Goku last went SSJ, as he'd been seen training with Gohan and Piccolo in normal form. Plus; Cooler's later seen in GT, as my point of view dictates, is canon in the anime universe.

I'm not saying that's how it should be, just how I view it with said explanations.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:24 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:I'm not saying that's how it should be, just how I view it with said explanations.

Sure.
But it's not so much how you would include that movie into the TV series continuity that I don't understand (like I said, as long as you're pretty flexible... "let's say Gohan got a haircut", "let's say his tail grew back", "let's say Gokû's training somehow made it harder for him to go Super Saiyan" (bad training -> change training))...

What I don't get is why you would consider Gokû's trip to the past and Gohan's pre-Raditz glimpses of potential to be in contradiction with the manga, to be further evidence that the manga and the anime are two separate continuities.
Sure, it's filler, but where's the contradiction?

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:56 am

Olivier Hague wrote:What I don't get is why you would consider Gokû's trip to the past and Gohan's pre-Raditz glimpses of potential to be in contradiction with the manga, to be further evidence that the manga and the anime are two separate continuities.
Sure, it's filler, but where's the contradiction?

I do personally believe they are contradictions, simply because Roshi's first meeting with Goku and Gohan's pre-Raditz surprises are never seen in the manga or referenced in the least at any point; therefore there's no proof these events ever happen in the confines of this canon. If you read the manga and never watch the anime, then you'd be under the impression Goku never made a journey to the past and Gohan's first surge of hidden powers was when Raditz detected "710". If only reading the manga, we can't just automatically assume that something Toriyama never wrote/drew should have happened. The anime and manga are two separate sides of the same coin, at least the way I view both areas, the anime is an adaptation and nothing short of the Bardock special should be considered canon with the manga. That's just my opinion.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:35 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:I do personally believe they are contradictions, simply because Roshi's first meeting with Goku and Gohan's pre-Raditz surprises are never seen in the manga or referenced in the least at any point; therefore there's no proof these events ever happen in the confines of this canon.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

For these events to contradict the manga, they'd have to simply not be possible. There would have to be an actual consistency problem.
If Cargo was killed by Freeza, he wasn't killed by Dodoria. It's one way or the other. Can't be both. That's a contradiction.
But Gohan showing signs of his potential prior to the Raditz incident? Why not? It could work.

If you read the manga and never watch the anime, then you'd be under the impression Goku never made a journey to the past and Gohan's first surge of hidden powers was when Raditz detected "710".

Well, yeah, naturally.
But if you then watched the anime, would you go "wait a minute, that's not possible!"?

If only reading the manga, we can't just automatically assume that something Toriyama never wrote/drew should have happened.

Again, I'm not saying we should assume it happened. I'm just saying it doesn't contradict the manga. If Toriyama wanted to make some "gaiden" about that, he could do so without introducing any major inconsistency.

the anime is an adaptation and nothing short of the Bardock special should be considered canon with the manga. That's just my opinion.

And I agree (I probably wouldn't even be so kind with the TV special).
I'm not saying these examples of filler should be considered (manga-) canon. Again, I'm just saying they don't contradict the manga, and thus aren't further evidence that the manga and anime are two separate continuities. Hence my reaction when I saw them listed in your post above.

Domon · Post by **Domon** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:08 pm

I came in here thinking this whole "canon" arguement is silly and the word "canon" gets tossed around too much. Now after reading the back-and-fore arguements, all I can say is...

Oh dear...

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:20 pm

Who cares? It's just a cartoon. *runs away*

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:04 pm

I pretty much consider the Manga the highest Canon, and the Anime a lesser and/or alternate canon. Due to inconsistencies and fillers I just keep the two canons separate, but in arguments pertaining to both I consider the Manga on a higher level.

That's pretty much it for me.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:10 pm

Well, I'm gonna take some advice from a fellow DaizEX member I respect, whom recently PMed me, and just stray off this debate. With as confusing as the concept of canon is when it comes to DragonBall, it seems to be the best move. I have no interest in continuing a pointless discussion for another 5 pages until EX loses patience in one of us. Oliver, rather you wanted to start a big discussion debacle or not, I'm through talking about my point of view, what Toriyama was involved with and gave his consent, etc. Have fun with whatever's next, I'm not gonna be your next desirecampbell weather that's what your intent was or not.

Duo wrote:Due to inconsistencies and fillers I just keep the two canons separate,

Alright, Duo! One more thing we can co-exist about.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:17 pm

You guys do know that Akira Toriyama's anime is based directly from his manga? Not too mention the fact that Akira Toriyama was involved in the anime as well.

http://www.daizex.com/guides/rumors/ind ... ama_filler

Also lets NOT forget that in ........

"TORIYAMA AKIRA SUPER INTERVIEW From Daizenshuu Vol. 3, TV Animation Part 1."

He even states that he was involved in the anime and ONLY considers the Dragonball Z Movies in a "different dimension."

Canon means its a part of the real storyline!!!

The anime is canon, regardless of some of the contradictions Akira Toriyama even helped work on some of the contradictions. Not too mention the anime also gives the fans MORE depth into certain fights and character development.

Yes, the Dragonball Z anime is Canon.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:57 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:Well, I'm gonna take some advice from a fellow DaizEX member I respect, whom recently PMed me, and just stray off this debate. With as confusing as the concept of canon is when it comes to DragonBall, it seems to be the best move.

Er... The debate wasn't even about the concept of canon. That was just a note in passing at the end of my first post.
The debate was about whether or not a couple of specific parts of the anime contradict the manga. And I'm not sure why you should "just stray off" that kind of discussion.

Oliver, rather you wanted to start a big discussion debacle or not, I'm through talking about my point of view, what Toriyama was involved with and gave his consent, etc. Have fun with whatever's next, I'm not gonna be your next desirecampbell weather that's what your intent was or not.

Not that you're implying anything one way or the other, right?
Again, it's a good thing I'm the bad guy who just wants to start fights, here...

Phenomenol wrote:He even states that he was involved in the anime and ONLY considers the Dragonball Z Movies in a "different dimension."

... and then...

Yes, the Dragonball Z anime is Canon.

Thing is, some elements of the TV series come from the movies. So if you consider the movies to take place in a "different dimension", what does that make the TV series?
Your "anime canon" would have to ignore some parts of the TV series... either that, or you'd have some 'splaining to do in order to include the movies (or some of them) in the TV series continuity, "different dimension" be damned.

That's where the whole problem lies, in my opinion: the concept of "canon" is already a pretty subjective notion in itself (it's not like Toriyama himself went out and explained what was "canon" and what wasn't), and an "anime canon" would be even more subjective: will you ignore parts of the TV series? If so, which ones? Or will you try and include the movies? All of them? Some of them? Which ones? How?

the_abberration · Post by **the_abberration** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:09 pm

Phenomenol wrote:Hi, I was debating this subject with a group of friends and I wanted to know what do you fans think?. BTW I believe the anime is canon.......

I would say there are two (three counting the movies) forms of canon. As with all manga turned anime, (unless the manga ended it's run, sometimes) it will diverge to filler at some point. Once the filler comes into play, I feel it becomes it's own separate canon.

In some cases, the anime will go into a complete different direction than the manga on which it is based on. (For example Spiral and Baki the Grappler).

Even still, movies based on the anime creates yet another sparate canon. Case in point, Ecaflowne series vs. the Escaflowne movie.

In the case of DB/DBZ, it sometimes becomes difficult to debate or theorize certain aspects due to the conflict between anime/manga canon. If someone asks a question pertaining to the manga, I will try to keep my response based on the manga. Same thing if the question is more anime related. Unfortunatley, that does not prevent myself (or others) from mingling the two when offering an opinion sometimes.

Kanzenshuu

Is the DragonBall Z anime "canon"?

Is the DragonBall Z anime "canon"?

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