What do you think are some of the worst retcons in the series?

[NickLord]

And why do you think so?

[FoolsGil]

S-Cells. Because think Midiclorians for Star Wars, then put that to Dragonball.

[TheGreatness25]

Eh. I'm alright with the retcons. I kind of just go with the flow at this point.

I was most bugged by the Potara fusion retcon--mostly because the story would have to go out of its way to make up a reason for the characters not to use it (particularly) with the Kaioshin always hanging around). But honestly, as long as the characters don't have access to the Potara, or there's a creative reason as to why they can't use it, I guess it's fine.

I'm also not huge into how much of a "good guy" Bardock has become. I know that he has some more story progression in the post-Tournament-of-Power arc in the manga, but I haven't gotten to it yet. But, based on Minus and the Broli movie, I kind of feel like he became way too generic and almost fanficy. I'm all for the retcon, but I wish that he was written better.

And finally, don't know if this is a "retcon," but Gohan's jumping in and out of whether he wants to fight or not is becoming too jittery. Just put him on one side of the fence, please.

[KorgDTR2000]

Definitely the change to Bardock's character.

Dunno if it counts as a retcon since the character was never canon anyway, but the new Broly is super lame as well.

[SupremeKai25]

Vegito defusing inside Majin Buu. This is a major retcon because it was explicitly stated in the same arc that the Potara fusion is permanent.

Thankfully Super fixed DBZ's mistake, by revealing that it is permanent only when used by Gods...

[Hugo Boss]

Super Saiyan Blue being just another Super Saiyan form and not the new default Super Saiyan.

Maybe the best plot point from Rebirth of Freeza, which had so many dumb ideas, was the rearrangement of Goku and Vegeta’s forms, by making them having the power of Super Saiyan God at normal and then a Super Saiyan powering-up from that. Super went back and forth with that until it decided to stick with normal -> gold -> red -> blue.

[Yuli Ban]

Bardock was perfect in his home special— no-name mook whose only cosmic importance was that his son was the main character of the series, who was cursed with the knowledge of his death (which was very much justified) at the hands of a much greater evil and was powerless to stop it. Just about everything done with him since has been to the total detriment of his character and the series as a whole.

Imagine an alternate timeline story where Tolkien made a short about a random ugly vicious orc who realizes Sauron is actually going to fuck everything up and tries to destroy the Ring, but is doomed to fail and yet still makes the attempt.
Then imagine that just about every bit of new material gradually whitewashes that orc into one of the greatest unsung heroes of Middle Earth, a good orc who just wanted to do something good for once and cared in a time when no one else did. And also the Chosen One before the Chosen One, and the only orc who had actual pride in his people, and a legendary fighting orc who never really dies but instead travels through time battling new opponents.

That's Bardock.

[MasenkoHA]

On top of Bardock’s character I don’t like Toriyama going full Superman and having Goku get Moses’d by his parents. The angle that Goku was meant to conquer earth was a lot more interesting.

Vegito defusing inside Majin Buu. This is a major retcon because it was explicitly stated in the same arc that the Potara fusion is permanent.

That’s not a retcon. It’s a contrivance but it’s not a retcon. Toriyama knew damn well he wasn’t going to keep Vegetto a permanent fixture so defusing inside Boo was an easy cheat

Thankfully Super fixed DBZ's mistake, by revealing that it is permanent only when used by Gods...

That is a retcon. A rather silly one too.

[Peach]

Portara fusion. It was supposed to last forever. Making it last five minutes instead of the whole hour was stupid too. I don't know why they didn't make a badass two part special like the Goku vs. Jiren two parter.

[JulieYBM]

Portara fusion. It was supposed to last forever. Making it last five minutes instead of the whole hour was stupid too. I don't know why they didn't make a badass two part special like the Goku vs. Jiren two parter.

The specials require heavy coordination by multiple parties to approve. Even getting just one (which wasn't even all that successful) was a miracle.

[Lord Beerus]

I've said my piece on the one recton I can't stand concerning Dragon Ball and it remains the same now:

Dragon Ball Minus. I go into greater detail about the issue I have with Dragon Ball Minus in this thread, but to cut a long story short... stuff like the S-Cells, only 28 planets in Universe 7 having life on them, Beerus plotting to wipe out the Saiyans before Freeza, Majin Boo existing since the beginning of time, and origins of Kaioshins are indeed quite dumb revisions, but they don't actively take away any significant and unique themes within Dragon Ball, while also damaging the character writing of established and already well-written characters. Dragon Ball Minus pulls off both those things and somehow managed to do it in only 16 pages.

[Hellspawn28]

Beerus stealing up Elder Kaioshin in the Z Sword, and Goku's origin in DB- are the worst retcons in the series. At least, Majin Boo existing since the beginning of time and #16 being Gero's son are retcons that I'm cool with because it makes those characters more interesting. Buu was just a magical version of Cell before Toriyama give him a retcon. The pre-Super stuff has their fair share of bad retcons too like the Dragon Balls only being used from 1 year to 6 months and Piccolo not being a demon.

[ABED]

Vegito defusing inside Majin Buu. This is a major retcon because it was explicitly stated in the same arc that the Potara fusion is permanent.

Thankfully Super fixed DBZ's mistake, by revealing that it is permanent only when used by Gods...

That isn't a retcon. It's an example of the kaioshin either exaggerating a claim or not knowing the method of defusing. No damn way Toriyama didn't plan on having Vegetto defuse at some point.

[Jack Bz]

I've never been bothered by S-Cells. People had already accepted that there is a genetic element to being easily able to transform into a super saiyan. Hybrids being stronger, Goten and Trunks being conceived from super super powerful saiyans etc. We already accepted that being stronger = more easily able to transform, so a little detail on why being stronger would mean that is fine for me. The worst I can say is that the name S-Cells is silly and makes super saiyans sound a bit science fictiony but it actually effects nothing.

My least favourite retcon is Goku no longer being sent to Earth for the purpose of destroying it, and Beerus telling Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta.

Oh wait, the absolute insane retcon in DBZ: Kakarot about the animal people on earth being humans taking a certain drug to become animals was absolutely wild.

[ABED]

I think we all get that but it's needless exposition. We don't need to know how it works.

My least favourite retcon is Goku no longer being sent to Earth for the purpose of destroying it, and Beerus telling Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta.

Same. These are mine as well. These are fundamental changes that go against the themes of one of the best arcs in the entire series.

[jjgp1112]

S-Cells. Because think Midiclorians for Star Wars, then put that to Dragonball.

S-Cells change literally nothing about what we already knew aside from making it actually make sense. And considering it never once comes up in the actual story, it doesn't even warrant a criticism of overexplanation. It's a total waste of emotional energy to give more than a cursory thought to it.

[ABED]

S-Cells. Because think Midiclorians for Star Wars, then put that to Dragonball.

S-Cells change literally nothing about what we already knew aside from making it actually make sense. And considering it never once comes up in the actual story, it doesn't even warrant a criticism of overexplanation. It's a total waste of emotional energy to give more than a cursory thought to it.

I get your point but one wonders why he even came up with that explanation to begin with. It's kinda like when Toriyama came up with the explanation of Bruits waves. Why create fake science for something we all get?

[Yuli Ban]

On top of Bardock’s character I don’t like Toriyama going full Superman and having Goku get Moses’d by his parents. The angle that Goku was meant to conquer earth was a lot more interesting.

Toriyama always admitted he couldn't write drama like what we saw in the Bardock special. The man's specialty has always been comedy and, to a lesser extent, action. Of course "drama ≠ good story by default", but when Toei's writers knew what they were doing, they could really manage to tell a great, dramatic story in the wacky Dragon Ball universe and not have it feel like jarring tonally-inconsistent fanfiction.

But that's what happens when a series becomes that successful and a national institution. Not only does the creator face far less creative pushback and editing to prune their ideas, but characters become mascot versions of themselves.

What's bizarre about that angle is that Toriyama turning Goku into the Japanese Superman that FUNimation DeeBeeZee fans always thought he was goes against the very intentions Toriyama originally had for the monkey, as he has always stated before that Goku was never a truly pure-hearted boy scout out to do good for its own sake but rather a selfish, battle-obsessed generic martial artist who just knew to aim his fists at the right people, and it was Toei that whitewashed him. Yet it's like the Goku that exists in Toriyama's mind and the Goku that exists under Toriyama's hand are two different characters, at least nowadays.


On the topic of S-Cells: sometimes, magic and mysticism is better. It totally cheapens Super Saiyan more than the bargain sale or back tingles ever did.

Son Goku not caring about Saiyans or the legend and being a total no-class yokel who wasn't even strong enough to handle total jobber Freeza Force goons two years prior to transforming into the golden-haired battle messiah we know and love cheapens the legend in a good way. It's like if Cletus the war-lovin' redneck became a bodhisattva but didn't give a damn about Eastern cultures or even Enlightenment. For what Dragon Ball is, that's perfect. It totally shits all over the classic "prophesied Chosen One" trope in a way that was still badass.

Super Saiyan Midichlorians cheapen the legend in a bad way. Because now it just means as long as you're a good monkey, Super Saiyan is just something you'll get. I'd say at least we got the Evil Saiyan form in Heroes to counteract it, but that would be giving praise to Heroes. It screws with the narrative and worldbuilding. Heck, actually, it screws with the worldbuilding by BEING worldbuilding. It's how you DON'T do worldbuilding— overly explaining things that don't need to be explained, or at the very least taking away the mysticism that made these things appealing. Not that science can't be appealing, but scientifically explaining magic and mysticism rarely comes to either's benefit.

The thing about S-Cells (and Midichlorians for that matter) is that they both made the same mistake: rather than using these microscopic organisms/cells as some sort of "hey, these things are attracted to people with certain traits," they instead became the source of that mystical power itself. I'd buy S-Cells if it turned out that they only appeared when a Saiyan actually became capable of becoming a Super Saiyan, sort of like "Goku had no S-Cells until his second zenkai boost on Namek." But that's not how S-Cells work. No, Goku always had them because he was always a good, gentle boy. Now you still need a high battle power to actually transform, but who's going to seriously argue that Vegeta was a gentle-enough spirit to have S-Cells when he first transformed? And not to bring the movies into it, but how did Z Broly transform? He was the furthest thing from gentle; his docile base form was just him being forced into passivity.

It's just one of those things that didn't need to be there.

[Anonymous Friend]

S-Cells. Because think Midiclorians for Star Wars, then put that to Dragonball.

S-Cells change literally nothing about what we already knew aside from making it actually make sense. And considering it never once comes up in the actual story, it doesn't even warrant a criticism of overexplanation. It's a total waste of emotional energy to give more than a cursory thought to it.

I get your point but one wonders why he even came up with that explanation to begin with. It's kinda like when Toriyama came up with the explanation of Bruits waves. Why create fake science for something we all get?

Because nerds love to obsess with fake science. And having a term for something also allows you to easily explain away when the thing doesn't work.

[Peach]

Vegito defusing inside Majin Buu. This is a major retcon because it was explicitly stated in the same arc that the Potara fusion is permanent.

Thankfully Super fixed DBZ's mistake, by revealing that it is permanent only when used by Gods...

That isn't a retcon. It's an example of the kaioshin either exaggerating a claim or not knowing the method of defusing. No damn way Toriyama didn't plan on having Vegetto defuse at some point.

It is a retcon. And a stupid one too. It's been years. I think whoever threw Vegito in that arc just kind of tacked him on for a cameo last minute and misremembered the rules of the fusion dance (the fusion defusing), applying them to the earrings too. Vegito clearly defused because of something related to Buu. It happened as soon as he entered his body and dropped the barrier.

I've said my piece on the one recton I can't stand concerning Dragon Ball and it remains the same now:

Dragon Ball Minus. I go into greater detail about the issue I have with Dragon Ball Minus in this thread, but to cut a long story short... stuff like the S-Cells, only 28 planets in Universe 7 having life on them, Beerus plotting to wipe out the Saiyans before Freeza, Majin Boo existing since the beginning of time, and origins of Kaioshins are indeed quite dumb revisions, but they don't actively take away any significant and unique themes within Dragon Ball, while also damaging the character writing of established and already well-written characters. Dragon Ball Minus pulls off both those things and somehow managed to do it in only 16 pages.

I'm pretty okay with Dragon Ball Minus. Bardock still tried to rebel against Frieza.

In my mind, most things in that special did happen. The only thing that changed was how Goku left, this time with his father loving him and saying goodbye.