Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 81 - Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

I'm really curious to how this arc was without the Namekian and Heaters.

It's possible that what got to Toriyama before he added them was just a very basic premise pitch, with more detailed structure and additional elements to be ironed out later. So maybe there was never an arc without them, so to speak. As in, what would have developed would have been determined after that point.

Or maybe there was. I don't know. The wording around it's been vague.

I'm curious about a lot of Super's behind-the-scenes development, but maybe this arc's more so than any other's.

[Xeogran]

Maybe by the end of this arc both will master UI and UE to the point no physical transformation will be needed to use them, which could fit with the movie in which it seems both Goku and Vegeta won’t be transforming, yet they will be training with Broly.

People have been saying this since BoG and yet they continue to get more and more.. and more... forms.
Broly isn't transformed either so they're going fair on him and that's it. Merchandise won't let them abandon Super Saiyan forms for good.

[JulieYBM]

It's really a shame that these arcs aren't a bit more structured around the single year length because with the way each volume of the comic only covers four chapters they could totally do a three-act structure easier.

Volume #01:
Chapter #01: Prelude/introduction of new characters.
Chapter #02: Gokuu and friends living their casual lives. Ends with the new characters arriving on Earth.
Chapter #03: Gokuu and friends come into contact with the new characters and a battle breaks out.
Chapter #04: The first battle ends inconclusively with both sides forced to reconsider their options in retreat.

Volume #02: Various mix of slice-and-life and training for the characters as they prepare for the final confrontation. Characters struggle with development issues.

Volume #03:
Chapter #09: Preparations for final confrontation and then the warm-up of final battle.
Chapter #10: Battle heats up.
Chapter #11: Climax and final battle's end.
Chapter #12: Epilogue.

Like, I feel like the biggest flaw of the Granola arc is that there's far too much on-battlefield stuff happening and not enough of there just being a plot that establishes Granola's likability more. Then the fighting just drags out like all hell and the characters' likability fades because they aren't really DOING anything. At least when Kubo Tite's battles in the BLEACH comic last for entire ten-fucking-chapter-fucking-volumes-fucking the characters feel like they're being explore and made deliciously ridiculous.

Hey Toyo-tarou, copy BLEACH. Thanks.

[Yuji]

Since when does Goku have problems defending the innocent or fighting for someone else's cause? He's never been exactly proactive in doing so but he's also never been this apathetic or deflective either. Selfish as he is, this strikes me as out of character regardless of his perceived degree of personal involvement with Granolah's business. It seems Toyotaro is deliberately imposing character flaws to juxtapose them with his prepared Bardock narrative.

He's fighting Gas to protect Granolah and Monaito. He also tried to prevent Vegeta and Granolah from killing each other, and got manipulated by the Heaters because he thought a planet needed defending from a bad guy. Where was he apathetic in this arc?

This chapter. The implication is that he's not showing his feelings so he doesn't mess up MnG but Gas' dialogue very directly implies that that's not all, Goku himself doesn't feel very attached to the conflict unlike Bardock who was determined to throw his life away for some random strangers.

[Lord Beerus]

We had entire volumes being fights. What are you even talking about?

Yeah, Dragon Ball is 90% fighting. This shouldn't shock anyone considering Dragon Ball is a Wuxia manga, so naturally, the practice of martial arts is going to be the focus.

It's purposely ignoring the context to say that "Dragon Ball" is only about fighting to justify how bland this arc has been. The point is not that there's a fighting in a fighting manga. The point is that the arc doesn't do its due diligence to make you care about anything going on. The fighting only matters if you actually give a crap about what's going on. If there's emotional and literal stakes, and if the characters change due to the conflict, it provides emotional currency for people to find out what's going on. Especially within the context of a monthly comic.

Oh, I know that Dragon Ball isn't just about fighting. I made a point about that when talking about last month's chapter.

[Mr Baggins]

This chapter. The implication is that he's not showing his feelings so he doesn't mess up MnG but Gas' dialogue very directly implies that that's not all, Goku himself doesn't feel very attached to the conflict unlike Bardock who was determined to throw his life away for some random strangers.

Gas's dialogue only mentions that Goku lacks the same "fire in his eyes", or ferocity, that Bardock displayed -- referring to Goku maintaining (or trying to maintain) Ultra Instinct, as those lines follow up Gas's surprise that Goku wasn't enraged by Granolah's presumed death. It's less a matter of Goku not giving it his all, or at least wanting to, and more that his strategy with MnG is framed as an obstacle; hence the chapter title.

If nothing else, the Super manga is generally, even now, exceptionally good at ensuring the characters are staying in-character. Goku goading Gas at the end is also a very Goku thing to do. I just wish all this was more connected to the rest of the story.

[Hugo Boss]

It's really a shame that these arcs aren't a bit more structured around the single year length because with the way each volume of the comic only covers four chapters they could totally do a three-act structure easier.

Volume #01:
Chapter #01: Prelude/introduction of new characters.
Chapter #02: Gokuu and friends living their casual lives. Ends with the new characters arriving on Earth.
Chapter #03: Gokuu and friends come into contact with the new characters and a battle breaks out.
Chapter #04: The first battle ends inconclusively with both sides forced to reconsider their options in retreat.

Volume #02: Various mix of slice-and-life and training for the characters as they prepare for the final confrontation. Characters struggle with development issues.

Volume #03:
Chapter #09: Preparations for final confrontation and then the warm-up of final battle.
Chapter #10: Battle heats up.
Chapter #11: Climax and final battle's end.
Chapter #12: Epilogue.

Like, I feel like the biggest flaw of the Granola arc is that there's far too much on-battlefield stuff happening and not enough of there just being a plot that establishes Granola's likability more. Then the fighting just drags out like all hell and the characters' likability fades because they aren't really DOING anything. At least when Kubo Tite's battles in the BLEACH comic last for entire ten-fucking-chapter-fucking-volumes-fucking the characters feel like they're being explore and made deliciously ridiculous.

Hey Toyo-tarou, copy BLEACH. Thanks.

I like this idea a lot.

I’m not usually complaining about the overuse of fighting scenes or creation of new character conflicts to pander a story, but sometimes I feel Toyotaro could make them more sparse and better organized, to make us eager to see the final act. After sometime, it just feels tiresome and you lose the interest in keeping up.

[JulieYBM]

It's really a shame that these arcs aren't a bit more structured around the single year length because with the way each volume of the comic only covers four chapters they could totally do a three-act structure easier.

Volume #01:
Chapter #01: Prelude/introduction of new characters.
Chapter #02: Gokuu and friends living their casual lives. Ends with the new characters arriving on Earth.
Chapter #03: Gokuu and friends come into contact with the new characters and a battle breaks out.
Chapter #04: The first battle ends inconclusively with both sides forced to reconsider their options in retreat.

Volume #02: Various mix of slice-and-life and training for the characters as they prepare for the final confrontation. Characters struggle with development issues.

Volume #03:
Chapter #09: Preparations for final confrontation and then the warm-up of final battle.
Chapter #10: Battle heats up.
Chapter #11: Climax and final battle's end.
Chapter #12: Epilogue.

Like, I feel like the biggest flaw of the Granola arc is that there's far too much on-battlefield stuff happening and not enough of there just being a plot that establishes Granola's likability more. Then the fighting just drags out like all hell and the characters' likability fades because they aren't really DOING anything. At least when Kubo Tite's battles in the BLEACH comic last for entire ten-fucking-chapter-fucking-volumes-fucking the characters feel like they're being explore and made deliciously ridiculous.

Hey Toyo-tarou, copy BLEACH. Thanks.

I like this idea a lot.

I’m not usually complaining about the overuse of fighting scenes or creation of new character conflicts to pander a story, but sometimes I feel Toyotaro could make them more sparse and better organized, to make us eager to see the final act. After sometime, it just feels tiresome and you lose the interest in keeping up.

Yeah, it would be a lot more fun and really let Dragon Ball delve into genres other than just martial arts fighting all the time.

[TheSaiyanGod]

This chapter. The implication is that he's not showing his feelings so he doesn't mess up MnG but Gas' dialogue very directly implies that that's not all, Goku himself doesn't feel very attached to the conflict unlike Bardock who was determined to throw his life away for some random strangers.

I don't know if this sounds like a stretch but to me it just came off as Goku not having the same aggressive and ferocious instinct as Bardock and (and consequently, other Saiyans) because he hit his head as a kid and lost his memories, being raised in a completely different environment.

I just don't see it as apathy because it's explicitly said that he was angry at Granolah's apparent death, and he needed to control that feeling in order to use Ultra Instinct. He is also clearly relieved and happy to find out that Granolah had not, in fact, died. Remembering that these are all guys he just met and that he was fighting a life and death battle a few hours ago (?) against them

If nothing else, the Super manga is generally, even now, exceptionally good at ensuring the characters are staying in-character.

Sorry, but I have to wonder what the "even now" means. It means the whole arc or this section specifically? Yes, the climax (at least for me) has been unfortunately boring (which is why I'm avoiding to comment here because I think there's enough complaints already), but until this point the arc was doing pretty well in the departament mentioned by you (character portrait), with the remarkable examples being Vegeta and Granolah.

[JulieYBM]

I wonder if the message that Toriyama and Toyo-tarou are getting at is that Gokuu's love of battle is somehow unique to him because he doesn't have the Saiyan instinct to destroy? It would tie into Vegeta's speech during the battle with Majin Buu about how Gokuu fought to surpass himself, after all, and also separate Gokuu from the Saiyans in that regard rather than boiling his love of battle down to simply being a Saiyan trait.

[Miracles]

This chapter. The implication is that he's not showing his feelings so he doesn't mess up MnG but Gas' dialogue very directly implies that that's not all, Goku himself doesn't feel very attached to the conflict unlike Bardock who was determined to throw his life away for some random strangers.

Gas's dialogue only mentions that Goku lacks the same "fire in his eyes", or ferocity, that Bardock displayed -- referring to Goku maintaining (or trying to maintain) Ultra Instinct, as those lines follow up Gas's surprise that Goku wasn't enraged by Granolah's presumed death. It's less a matter of Goku not giving it his all, or at least wanting to, and more that his strategy with MnG is framed as an obstacle; hence the chapter title.

If nothing else, the Super manga is generally, even now, exceptionally good at ensuring the characters are staying in-character. Goku goading Gas at the end is also a very Goku thing to do. I just wish all this was more connected to the rest of the story.

It would seem that what Gas is talking about is separate from Goku maintaining UI. It might be more of an identity issue. His resolve doesn't match his father's.

[LightBing]

This chapter was more enjoyable than the last few but still not doing much for me.
I really dislike the excessive references Toyotarõ puts in, feels forced a lot of the time.

Disappointed Goku is apparently getting the final fight when Vegeta or Granolah would be far more interesting, although the later already had his shot I guess.

Even tho Gas suffers from villain incompetence by not quickly killing Goku, this game of cat and mouse might be interesting.

[Mr Baggins]

It would seem that what Gas is talking about is separate from Goku maintaining UI. It might be more of an identity issue.

It's both. Goku is attempting to maintain UI, but he's also not particularly tethered to his family or past history in the same way that Gas is. Gas thinks this equates to a lack of identity.

My tentative prediction is that Gas will be proven wrong Re: Goku's ferocity/passion in the coming chapters, but again, it's really hard to tell what's going on thematically when all of these fights slowly dripfeed all of their intended character progression. Even the Moro arc was better at this, in that it had some solid climax chapters between the mediocre ones.

Sorry, but I have to wonder what the "even now" means. It means the whole arc or this section specifically?

Both. The bulk of my problems lie with this section specifically, but it has negatively impacted the entire arc for me. It's been nearly half a year since I've enjoyed a chapter.

[OLKv3]

Since when does Goku have problems defending the innocent or fighting for someone else's cause? He's never been exactly proactive in doing so but he's also never been this apathetic or deflective either. Selfish as he is, this strikes me as out of character regardless of his perceived degree of personal involvement with Granolah's business. It seems Toyotaro is deliberately imposing character flaws to juxtapose them with his prepared Bardock narrative.

He's fighting Gas to protect Granolah and Monaito. He also tried to prevent Vegeta and Granolah from killing each other, and got manipulated by the Heaters because he thought a planet needed defending from a bad guy. Where was he apathetic in this arc?

This chapter. The implication is that he's not showing his feelings so he doesn't mess up MnG but Gas' dialogue very directly implies that that's not all, Goku himself doesn't feel very attached to the conflict unlike Bardock who was determined to throw his life away for some random strangers.

Gas has no idea how UI works. His response is "I don't understand" and nothing in the chapter portrays Gas as being in the right.

[kemuri07]

It would seem that what Gas is talking about is separate from Goku maintaining UI. It might be more of an identity issue.

It's both. Goku is attempting to maintain UI, but he's also not particularly tethered to his family or past history in the same way that Gas is. Gas thinks this equates to a lack of identity.

My tentative prediction is that Gas will be proven wrong Re: Goku's ferocity/passion in the coming chapters, but again, it's really hard to tell what's going on thematically when all of these fights slowly dripfeed all of their intended character progression. Even the Moro arc was better at this, in that it had some solid climax chapters between the mediocre ones.

I think this is a wonderful idea that the manga seems uninterested to actually engage with. Because it would be something. One of the things I was hoping for was that Vegeta's embracing of Hakai would lead to a moral conflict between both Vegeta and Goku...but nothing has happened. I mean, shit how many chapters has it been since All Ego Vegeta? And it doesn't mean anything.

[kemuri07]

He's fighting Gas to protect Granolah and Monaito. He also tried to prevent Vegeta and Granolah from killing each other, and got manipulated by the Heaters because he thought a planet needed defending from a bad guy. Where was he apathetic in this arc?

This chapter. The implication is that he's not showing his feelings so he doesn't mess up MnG but Gas' dialogue very directly implies that that's not all, Goku himself doesn't feel very attached to the conflict unlike Bardock who was determined to throw his life away for some random strangers.

Gas has no idea how UI works. His response is "I don't understand" and nothing in the chapter portrays Gas as being in the right.

But this isn't about UI though. Gaas specifically states that Goku can't beat him because, unlike his father, there's no pride or fire within him. He just fights because he likes to fight. The point that Gaas is making is that Goku does not fight as if his life depends on it. Unlike Vegeta, or the Saiyans in general, he's not ruthless. Hell to both Gaas and Granolah he sees no reason to actually fight them.

[Hugo Boss]

The point that Gaas is making is that Goku does not fight as if his life depends on it.

This made me remember Himura Kenshin’s conflict when he was training to learn Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki. Oh good memories.

[OLKv3]

This chapter. The implication is that he's not showing his feelings so he doesn't mess up MnG but Gas' dialogue very directly implies that that's not all, Goku himself doesn't feel very attached to the conflict unlike Bardock who was determined to throw his life away for some random strangers.

Gas has no idea how UI works. His response is "I don't understand" and nothing in the chapter portrays Gas as being in the right.

But this isn't about UI though. Gaas specifically states that Goku can't beat him because, unlike his father, there's no pride or fire within him. He just fights because he likes to fight. The point that Gaas is making is that Goku does not fight as if his life depends on it. Unlike Vegeta, or the Saiyans in general, he's not ruthless. Hell to both Gaas and Granolah he sees no reason to actually fight them.

That's because Goku is forcing himself to remain calm for UI. I don't why you guys are making this into something Goku has never done. Goku has been going all out to save Vegeta and Granolah from killing each other, and was risking his life to save Monaito. Goku always risks his life for battles. But he has to remain calm to continue mastering UI, like he says in the beginning of the fight.

[KentMan]

There was no way UE would be better than UI. Beerus was talking out of his rear to say that hakaishin techniques are stronger than guide techniques. He seems to forget that all the guides are stronger than him even trainees. So it obviously makes sense for Goku to be the one to deal with Gas.

[kemuri07]

Gas has no idea how UI works. His response is "I don't understand" and nothing in the chapter portrays Gas as being in the right.

But this isn't about UI though. Gaas specifically states that Goku can't beat him because, unlike his father, there's no pride or fire within him. He just fights because he likes to fight. The point that Gaas is making is that Goku does not fight as if his life depends on it. Unlike Vegeta, or the Saiyans in general, he's not ruthless. Hell to both Gaas and Granolah he sees no reason to actually fight them.

That's because Goku is forcing himself to remain calm for UI. I don't why you guys are making this into something Goku has never done. Goku has been going all out to save Vegeta and Granolah from killing each other, and was risking his life to save Monaito. Goku always risks his life for battles. But he has to remain calm to continue mastering UI, like he says in the beginning of the fight.

And again not the point. Gaas is making a distinction. It’s not about anger here—it’s about ruthlessness. Goku does not fight to kill and only does so out of absolute necessity. That’s what Gaas talking about and why he compares Goku negatively to Bardock. Yeah, Goku gets mad but he doesn’t set out to destroy his opponents, and is more than willing to give second chances or talk down a fight if he doesn’t feel like he should. Again, he sees combat largely as competition and is more than willing to let bad guys fight him again when they get stronger.

That’s what Gaas is referring to. Whether or not he’s right that Goku can’t beat him because of a lack of a killer instinct remains to be seen, but again, it’s not about anger.